More fill options - What's the cost of each?

[deucelee]

So I’ve been thinking about some options to fill my MRod and Disco.  I just can't see myself on the manual pump for all these shots so I need more options.

1.  Get a Great White - $679, just fill it up at the local scuba place for $10 per fill.  Use it for 15 years like that; get a shoebox to fill going forward.
     a.  MATH - Assuming fill once per day, 60 fills per tank, 1 refills every 2 month.  Cost of ownership = $679 + $900 for refills over 15 years = $1,579.  Make it $1,800 if you include gas to go to the shop.  Assuming each fill is 30 shots, that’s 10,000 shots per year, 150,000 shots over 15 years.   $1,800/150,000 = That’s 1.2 cents per shot.

2.  Get a shoebox max ($649) + cheap and used SCBA from ebay for $60’ish + another used tank every 5 years, get a “SCBA Universal Filling Adapter (CGA347 or 346)” from mac2airgunshop or similar place - $180, + maintenance or rebuilds for shoebox - $200 + Electricity - $100.  Total = $1,300 over 15 years
    a.  Assuming I fill up once per day, same calculation as above, will be same 150,000 shots over 15 years.  $1,300/150,000 = Cost per shot is slightly lower at $0.086 per shot

3.  Wait to hear back from local welding shop.  Their quote for regular 3,000 PSI nitrogen was $189/5 year lease, $80 for next 5 years, $20 per fill.  I’ve asked them for a quote for the 5K or 6K psi prices. ETA hopefully 8/11/14.
   a.   Tanks are 300CF, assuming 5000 PSI, I’d get 232 fills per tank.  Assuming $300 for first 5 years lease, $150 for each next 5 years + $30 per refill, that’s $900 for 15 years lease, I’ll need 24 refills = $720 = $1,320 for 5 years.  This would be similar cost as option 2.
   b.   Any more than $400 for first 5 year lease or $35 per fill and I’m better off with options 1 and 2 above.  This would be $1,640 and cost would exceed option 1.

I know this seems silly to try and do all these math calculations but I just wanted to confirm one isn't a HUGE amount over another. 

Does the math add up for you guys.  What seems to be more logical to you guys?

[farmerjoe99]

2.  Get a shoebox max ($649) + cheap and used SCBA from ebay for $60’ish + another used tank every 5 years, get a “SCBA Universal Filling Adapter (CGA347 or 346)” from mac2airgunshop or similar place - $180, + maintenance or rebuilds for shoebox - $200 + Electricity - $100.  Total = $1,300 over 15 years
    a.  Assuming I fill up once per day, same calculation as above, will be same 150,000 shots over 15 years.  $1,300/150,000 = Cost per shot is slightly lower at $0.086 per shot

I think you forgot to add small oil free 85psi compressor for the shoebox(unless you already have one or missed it in your post)
I think its a good idea to do the math before you buy.I would go with either #1 or #2. or combine the two and be free of the gas and
drive time at the scuba shop.Might be the cheaper in the long run depending how far your drive is.
let us know what you decide to get.
Joseph

[benj397]

1 and 2 (with small tanks) are a lot more portable than a 3000 or 6000 cylinder.  So for # 3 I'd still add a scba tank to the price.

Oh and have you calculated how many fills you can get with your mrod and the 3000 psi cylinder?  The mrod is a 3000 psi gun. 

[deucelee]

I think you forgot to add small oil free 85psi compressor for the shoebox(unless you already have one or missed it in your post)
I think its a good idea to do the math before you buy.I would go with either #1 or #2. or combine the two and be free of the gas and
drive time at the scuba shop.Might be the cheaper in the long run depending how far your drive is.
let us know what you decide to get.
Joseph

I do have a 85psi compressor already.  Option 2 is kinda combining the two already except I'm just going for 13-14 year old SCBA 45min tanks which are cheap.  Or I could just get a Guppy with the shoebox.  That's a possibility.  The drive isn't too bad.  About 5 miles away.  I do want to wait to hear back from American Welding and Gas first.

1 and 2 (with small tanks) are a lot more portable than a 3000 or 6000 cylinder.  So for # 3 I'd still add a scba tank to the price.

Oh and have you calculated how many fills you can get with your mrod and the 3000 psi cylinder?  The mrod is a 3000 psi gun.

That's a good point.  I have heard of some folks putting the 6K cylinder in their basement and fill directly from it.  I don't think I care about portability that much.  Most pinking will be around the house and if I go hunting, 30 shots is plenty.  I did use that calculator to find the fills.  215cc Mrod tank + Filling from 2K to 3K.  http://www.americanairrifle.com/tank.htm

[benj397]

I was referring to using a 3000 psi nitrogen tank and filling your mrod.  When you use your linked calculator, you get 0 times (Nitrogen tank would probably be 304 cf size).  In actuality you'd get almost 1 as both would equilibrate almost to 3000.  Same tank on a disco filling from 1200 to 2000 gives 244 fills.

Using a 6000 psi tank would provide a lot of fills for both guns.

[deucelee]

I was referring to using a 3000 psi nitrogen tank and filling your mrod.  When you use your linked calculator, you get 0 times (Nitrogen tank would probably be 304 cf size).  In actuality you'd get almost 1 as both would equilibrate almost to 3000.  Same tank on a disco filling from 1200 to 2000 gives 244 fills.

Using a 6000 psi tank would provide a lot of fills for both guns.

concur. that's why i'm waiting for them to get back to me with the 5K or 6K quote.  The 3K setup/quote isn't going to cut it. 

Thanks for the headsup on the other compressor in the other post.  I may have to check that out from Joe.  thanks.

[benj397]

From what I've read elsewhere, you might want to talk to your insurance agent about "what-if" you were to get and store a 5K or 6K nitrogen tank.

[farmerjoe99]

Might want to look at one of these as a possibility:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574/message/1407762596/UPDATED+ALPHA90+Compressor+%241495%3B+w-H20+Drier+Filter+%241795%3B+w-Tiger+Shark+Full+Armor+%241995M-rod air also just got a Chinese compressor.
Just something else to consider...
Joseph

[deucelee]

From what I've read elsewhere, you might want to talk to your insurance agent about "what-if" you were to get and store a 5K or 6K nitrogen tank.

good suggestion....

Might want to look at one of these as a possibility:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574/message/1407762596/UPDATED+ALPHA90+Compressor+%241495%3B+w-H20+Drier+Filter+%241795%3B+w-Tiger+Shark+Full+Armor+%241995M-rod air also just got a Chinese compressor.
Just something else to consider...
Joseph

cool thanks Joe.  Now I know why this is called the "darkside".  Once you're sucked in, your wallet goes dark.  Always good to have more choices though.

No news from American welding today.  They said to call back tomorrow.   

[deucelee]

There goes that idea! The 300cf,6K nitrogen tank I mean.  I was told it's going to be a daily rental of $3 per day and $200 per fill.  NOT GONNA HAPPEN!!!!!!!!

It's coming down now to the Freedom8 vs the Viper/Omega.  This is quite a commitment for sure and I'm just a 32 year old newbie compared to some of you seasoned pros.  In all honesty, I can afford it, but it's going to hurt a little bit.  But I do love shooting.  Like they say, buy the one thing, you cry once, buy the mediocre item, you may cry every time you use it.

The Shoebox Max is cheap, but I'd hate to wait 7 hours to fill a 80cf tank from 3-4.5K and have to grease it a couple times in between.  The Freedom8 is about 8 CFH vs almost 20 for the Omega.

QUESTION - I'm reading that if I go with the Freedom8, I should get a desiccant which could run $200-$300 for a nice one.  If going with the Viper/Omega, no desiccant is needed because no external compressor is used, Correct?

[farmerjoe99]

I admit I know VERY little about either compressor but I think I would go
with the Viper/Omega I think it would make me happier in the long run.I'll have to do
some more research tomorrow.
Joseph

[deucelee]

I admit I know VERY little about either compressor but I think I would go
with the Viper/Omega I think it would make me happier in the long run.I'll have to do
some more research tomorrow.
Joseph

Joe, do let me know what your thoughts are as well...would be good to share ideas...

FYI, I was thinking about SCI's 30 year SCBA but it turns out they're about $790.  That's about 2X the cost of Omega's 75CF SCBA.  Omega's is $580-$120=$460 if you do a combo with the Freedom8 or Omega compressor.  Not only that, but the SCI would be HALF the size of the Omega SCBA.  Kind of a no-brainer there!!

I'm thinking I will pull the trigger on one of these combos soon...

[farmerjoe99]

Here is a review I found from Ted's Holdover(I find his info to be accurate and trust worthy)
http://tedsholdover.com/2014/02/03/raptor-ez-fill-4500-compressor/
In short he really likes it.Heres another one:
http://northwestairguns.com/296/shot-show-2014-airguns-of-arizona-omega-super-charger-4500-psi-compressor/
there is a link to a video on it at the bottom of the page.
and here is the listing I found on Precision Airs website:http://www.precisionairgunsandsupplies.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Raptor-Pneumatics-EZ-Fill-4500 Looks to be a nice compressor if you can get a deal with it and a tank that's the way I'd go.much less hassle than a shoebox and quicker.
let us know what you decide on good luck hope you get whats best for you.
 God Bless
  Joseph

[Kerplink]

The Omega/Raptor/EZ Fill4500 (why does it go by so many names?) looks like an interesting solution.

I would like to know more about maintenance requirements and longer term rebuild schedules. The "Ted"' review linked to claims it only needs a "drop or two" of oil periodically. But when he wrote that he only had 20 hours of run time. An update would be nice.

 

[Rdsail]

This has to do with travel expenses and it will vary greatly on each user. It only affects option 1 and 3. Some people have to travel short to long distances to fill their tanks. So missing from the calculation is time and gasoline cost for the traveling. This could be nominal for people that live 30 minutes from a fill station. But lets say someone lives 30miles away:

Based on 6 fills per year:

Round trip: 60 miles

MPG: 20.2
(I average the US light duty vehicles in the US
http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_04_23.html)

Cost per gallon: $3.50
(average US  gallon in the US. http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/steo/report/prices.cfm)

So here we go:

60 miles:
((60/20.2)x3.5)x6x15 = $935.64

40 miles: $623.76

20 miles: $311.88


You where on the ball part if only traveling 20 miles. But the costs go up fast if you consider the other distances. Also, not included in here is cost per hour of travel this could be all over the pace too.

[farmerjoe99]

The drive isn't too bad.  About 5 miles away.

but don't forget he's figuring for 15 yrs.

I would like to know more about maintenance requirements and longer term rebuild schedules

They mention it in the video 
somewhere in the middle of the video.of course that was just factory testing not from users...would be
nice to know I agree.I would call AoA and Precision Air and ask what there customers thought of them.
Joseph

[Rdsail]

My point is to put it on perspective for everyone. I think If I think all the money I have spent in AGs I would be depressed. But Then is there a price from the countless hours of entertainment that this hobby has brought me. 

[Kerplink]

They mention it in the video 
somewhere in the middle of the video.of course that was just factory testing not from users...would be
nice to know I agree.

I heard him say they project an oil change interval of 3500 hours but that it's too new to be certain. If that were accurate (and it could go that long without any service other than a drop of oil here and there), that would be fantastic - beyond fantastic, actually. Somehow, I'm not confident that's how it will work. That would mean I could re-fill a large tank once a day for over 9 years without hardly having to do anything.

[farmerjoe99]

I agree with you entirely but even if you cut 3500hrs down to 1500hrs that doesn't seem to bad.
But that's all speculation...hopefully we will get some user reports soon.

[rsterne]

My nearest SCUBA fills, which after cooling are only 2800 psi, are 4 hours round trip, and 200 miles.... Our gas cost is $1.35 per litre ($5.13 per gallon) and my vehicle gets about 26 MPG, so that's about $40 in gas plus the $10 fill, so $50 for a fill.... I bought one of the first 100 ShoeBox compressors when they first came out, for about $600 including shipping, and I've partially rebuilt it 4 times, for maybe $20 worth of O-rings, and it has 420 hours on it.... It takes about 3 hours to top up my 80 CF tank, so I have done about 140 refills for about $620 plus the electricity, let's call it 420 kWh at 0.13 each = maybe $55.... so my cost per fill is less than $5.00.... Not only that, I can fill to 3300 psi instead of 2800 (in fact I refill at 2800).... For me, it was pretty much a no-brainer....

Now getting an 88 CF 4500 psi tank for $1100 is another matter.... but 56 fills per tank instead of 13 (on a 215 cc bottle) and twice the time to refill it seems like a good trade off.... even though it will take me a few years to recoup the investment....

Bob