Light weight hand pump

[jvanschoonhoven]

Ok so ive been looking at the fx independence and was going to buy one this month so I could be self sufficient out in the field but the more I looked into it the more I thought about different options. The gun is a bit heavy cause it has the onboard pump and it is limited in the number of shots you get on one fill. Also its a bit pricy.
I am not too concerned with the price though but weight does concern me

 I started to wonder what if I made a super light weight hand pump that would fit in my pack that I could use with all my airguns? Even if this pump cost $500 to $700 or more it would be worth it for me to be able to carry with me in the field.
So what im wondering is do any of you think their would be a market for a pump like this? What would you be willing to pay? How light and small would you want it?  I would mostlikly be using ti and carbon fiber for several of the parts to bring the weight down.
There is definitely ways to save weight over current models but the more weight you cut off the more it will cost to build. Also if you make it much smaller then efficency suffers.

Before you all freak out and tell me how hard or impossible this will be to build you should know I have several years experience working at a machine shop as well as many years helping design products and working in R&D I have several different shops that I could have the parts made at as well.
Any thoughts or opinions are welcome even negative criticism as long as its constructive.

Thanks
JV

[DavidS]

I know it is definitely possible, and quite doable at a fairly low cost.  This has been proven by those that have reduced head space in there Crosman 13xx and related guns to the point that they are able to build up to 3500PSI in the valve (some people have added a pressure gauge to there valve).

So yes I think that there would be a market for it if you can keep the price down.   I would think a design based on the same principle of the MSP air guns would be perfect, yes it is a different pumping motion though it will do the job while keeping the price tag down.

I would recommend basing it on the Daisy 880/901/35 pump design with a longer piston stroke, and a corresponding longer pump arm.  I say this as it is a well thought out pump design for extremely low head space, and could also be done with minimal wasted space behind the check seal (a kind of cup seal for this gun).   And I believe that you could be able to produce pressures up to around 5000PSI so long as you watch the details of your implementation.    I have been considering similar ideas for a Air Conserving MSP (like what the FX Independence is), as there is no reason for such a gun to be expensive, they can be made low cost.

[jvanschoonhoven]

I agree with the type of pump you are suggesting I also have a few other designs that I want to test before I post anything about them.
I think leverage of the long pump arm on the fx is one of the reasons it works well.

Ill probably start on a prototype next month and test designs till I find what I like best then work on saving as much weight as I can.

[Frank in Fairfield]

The HPA pumps on the market are not heavy at all.
You could easily carry them strapped to your backpack.
You could also fashion a sling to carry them.

[DavidS]

The HPA pumps on the market are not heavy at all.
You could easily carry them strapped to your backpack.
You could also fashion a sling to carry them.

I would like to know where you find the lite weight ones?

The lowest weight ones I have seen are 4 pounds by themselves, and every ounce counts when you are hiking.   For it to be reasonable it would have to come in under 1 pound as you also have to carry the weight of the gun.

[DavidS]

I agree with the type of pump you are suggesting I also have a few other designs that I want to test before I post anything about them.
I think leverage of the long pump arm on the fx is one of the reasons it works well.

Ill probably start on a prototype next month and test designs till I find what I like best then work on saving as much weight as I can.

I look forward to seeing your results.

[mista meener]

The HPA pumps on the market are not heavy at all.
You could easily carry them strapped to your backpack.
You could also fashion a sling to carry them.

I would like to know where you find the lite weight ones?

The lowest weight ones I have seen are 4 pounds by themselves, and every ounce counts when you are hiking.   For it to be reasonable it would have to come in under 1 pound as you also have to carry the weight of the gun.

Maybe if you can take a look the way the FX pump works on their rifle and use that design. I love my Hatsan ATS 44 insanely accurate with cheap pellets and for 95 bucks I just carry an extra cylinder  small and light. That gives me at least 70 shots. Should be enough unless you are fighting off a Chinese human wave assault

[DavidS]

The HPA pumps on the market are not heavy at all.
You could easily carry them strapped to your backpack.
You could also fashion a sling to carry them.

I would like to know where you find the lite weight ones?

The lowest weight ones I have seen are 4 pounds by themselves, and every ounce counts when you are hiking.   For it to be reasonable it would have to come in under 1 pound as you also have to carry the weight of the gun.

Maybe if you can take a look the way the FX pump works on their rifle and use that design. I love my Hatsan ATS 44 insanely accurate with cheap pellets and for 95 bucks I just carry an extra cylinder  small and light. That gives me at least 70 shots

Interesting idea carry a cylinder for an extra 70 shots so you run out on the 3rd day of your hike.

And it costs a lot less to make an air conserving MSP out of a Crosman 13xx gun.   That is the problem with the FX Independence, and FX Indy, they are Air Conserving MSP's and thus not worth the cost.

[Frank in Fairfield]

You are right. The Benji pump is right at 10 pounds.
A pump that generates 3000psi is going to have some weight in order to provide that amount of pressure I guess.
I wish you good luck.
I suggest you forget abaout the PCP rifle and go with a springer.
A gas ram in case you have to have it cocked and ready.
IMHO

[jvanschoonhoven]

RETATCDUDE,
the designs of the current pumps do not consider weight at all. My 4 stage fx pump could save tons of weight just with a different base and handle. Thats not even considering the rest of the pump. The problem is the ligher you make it the more expensive it will be. When I was in competition riding bikes professionally and regularly attending the World Championships I would grind drill file or mill any part that was not structural.  I saved several pounds without losing any strength. The companies that made the parts could not make them how I modified them without it costing a fortune.

So my goal is to keep the cost as low as possible while focusing on light weight and durability.

[Nomadic Pirate]

I think there would definatly be a market for it,
I say go ahead and see what you can come up with, it's good to think outside the box and something special could happen

[NickB79]

Maybe go the opposite way: get a lightweight PCP and then the extra weight of a pump doesn't matter as much.

Mike at Flying Dragon is still selling his PCP/pump combo for $250, I believe: http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/XS60C_PCP.html

I don't know how heavy the pump is, but since the gun is only a 1500 psi platform, maybe it's not too overbuilt for your needs?  You could ask over on the Flying Dragon subforum we have here.

[Frank in Fairfield]

RETATCDUDE,
the designs of the current pumps do not consider weight at all. My 4 stage fx pump could save tons of weight just with a different base and handle. Thats not even considering the rest of the pump. The problem is the ligher you make it the more expensive it will be. When I was in competition riding bikes professionally and regularly attending the World Championships I would grind drill file or mill any part that was not structural.  I saved several pounds without losing any strength. The companies that made the parts could not make them how I modified them without it costing a fortune.

So my goal is to keep the cost as low as possible while focusing on light weight and durability.

OK

Good luck

[joejoeguns]

Just rolling with your idea a little. If you want to go way outside the box, think of a collapsible camping cup. You know the kind with the progressively smaller sections. An effective high pressure pump works on forcing a large volume of air into a very small space, think of how much air you could compress on one stroke, and it would store flat. Maybe way off but sounds workable.

[DavidS]

Maybe go the opposite way: get a lightweight PCP and then the extra weight of a pump doesn't matter as much.

Now that is an odd statement.  Any PCP that I would consider would have to way less than 5 pounds to begin with.  So how do you take 8 pounds off of a 5 pound gun and still have a gun?  Since you are talking about compensating for the weight of the pump.

Mike at Flying Dragon is still selling his PCP/pump combo for $250, I believe: http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/XS60C_PCP.html

I don't know how heavy the pump is, but since the gun is only a 1500 psi platform, maybe it's not too overbuilt for your needs?  You could ask over on the Flying Dragon subforum we have here.

And where is the Flying Dragon subforum?

[jvanschoonhoven]

Well  I am  making  some progress and partnered up with two of my friends one who works at a big company doing cad drawings and  Engineering The other does R&D and already has some factories that can produce some of the ti parts.
I am very excited about this project and will keep you all up to date.  TI will also help with the over heating issues most pumps have.

[jvanschoonhoven]

I think you guys are right that the cost will be what holds this back from being a big selling item however im not worried about selling tons of them. I will of course  try and keep the price down as much as possible. One question is do you guys think a guage is needed? I think Most people spending 300 or more on a pump will probably have a pcp with a guage one it. What do you guys think?

[DavidS]

I think you guys are right that the cost will be what holds this back from being a big selling item however im not worried about selling tons of them. I will of course  try and keep the price down as much as possible. One question is do you guys think a guage is needed? I think Most people spending 300 or more on a pump will probably have a pcp with a guage one it. What do you guys think?

Well a guage only adds about $5 to the over all cost.  And considering $4.00 per hour for labor + $12 for materials, and 20 hours of active R+D, another 0.5 hours per unit to manufacture and the cost of R+D being divided between the first 40 units, that gives a total cost of production of $5 + $2 + $2 + $12 =$21 plus a 20% mark up brings us to $22.20 per unit sold for the first 40 units.

This is why I can not understand the outrageous prices on the pumps.  I know that many of them have Air Dryers and such, though come on people, we can remember to bleed our tank every 4 fills correct?

I know how much it would take to produce, and it is reasonable.   Especially if you go with the design style that was discussed near the beginning of this thread.   The 20% mark up is for maintaining tools, and growing production.

[jvanschoonhoven]

Removing the guage was for saving weight not cost.
I would have a spot for one with a plug in case you really want one but to me it makes sense to only carry one when trying to save weight.

[mista meener]

The HPA pumps on the market are not heavy at all.
You could easily carry them strapped to your backpack.
You could also fashion a sling to carry them.

I would like to know where you find the lite weight ones?

The lowest weight ones I have seen are 4 pounds by themselves, and every ounce counts when you are hiking.   For it to be reasonable it would have to come in under 1 pound as you also have to carry the weight of the gun.

Maybe if you can take a look the way the FX pump works on their rifle and use that design. I love my Hatsan ATS 44 insanely accurate with cheap pellets and for 95 bucks I just carry an extra cylinder  small and light. That gives me at least 70 shots

Interesting idea carry a cylinder for an extra 70 shots so you run out on the 3rd day of your hike.

And it costs a lot less to make an air conserving MSP out of a Crosman 13xx gun.   That is the problem with the FX Independence, and FX Indy, they are Air Conserving MSP's and thus not worth the cost.

Seems like you do not want no help at all really just want to criticize those that make suggestions. Are you planning to fend off human wave assaults where you need hundreds of shots? I notice you are old timer so how far and long could you hike?