Spring Lubrication Oil vs Grease and Lube Intervals.

[nced]

"what appears will be an ongoing arena of battle and debate"
I do agree that there is a good deal of DEBATE on the subject of "LUBE PRACTICES", however I personally don't see a "BATTLE" since lubing methods are simply a "what floats your boat" and what works well for the individual shooter!

Over the years I've lubed using the  the old Beeman molly paste and main spring dampening compounds, the Beeman suggested and sold "DriSlide" through the transfer port,  Beeman sold compression chamber lube that was applied through the transfer port, the traditional airgun guru recommended "tar & molly". I've tested "Euro grease" (the tan stuff in HW springers), "special high pressure" greases in cartridges to be used with grease guns, dry graphite powder, a home concoction of 100% silicone oil thickened with 5 micron molly powder, and most recently the Dupont Krytox grease and oil as well as the International version called Ultimox.

They ALL did work well and the simple dry graphite powder worked better for me than any of the greases/oils I used in previous years for a PISTON SEAL LUBE if "better" is defined as a more consistent shot cycle and poi. I migrated from the "stripped compression tube and piston lubed with graphite powder" to Krytox/Ultimox only two seasons ago and "so far" I'm sold on the "new stuff" simply based on only a couple criteria..... ease of application (not diesel prone if not done perfectly), cleanliness (doesn't stain black), consistency of shot cycle in different temps, longevity of the lube (still being determined)!

Anywhoo.....I see this thread as a DISCUSSION of different lubing preferences, not a BATTLE, and I personally believe that the GTA is a great place for FRIENDLY discussions of differing points of view!

[White Eagle]

I'm sold on the "new stuff" simply based on only a couple criteria..... ease of application (not diesel prone if not done perfectly), cleanliness (doesn't stain black), consistency of shot cycle in different temps, longevity of the lube (still being determined)!

Anywhoo.....I see this thread as a DISCUSSION of different lubing preferences, not a BATTLE, and I personally believe that the GTA is a great place for FRIENDLY discussions of differing points of view!

+1!

[Paul68]

The seal damage associated with the transfer port I have found on rifles with either high power or high shot counts has typically looked like repeated exposure to highly heated air. We know the air temperature in the cylinder will spike very high with or without any combustion due to compression, so its a tossup as to the cause really unless you have evidence of consistent dieseling or detonation. I usually find no damage at all associated with the transfer port. I do know on rifles that were dieseling badly, like with OEM oils and no tuning, definite combustion damage was pretty clear from burnt residue within the damaged area of the seal. On rifles that didn't show any dieseling but still had damage at the port area, this burnt residue wasn't evident, just a deformed and worn area near the port when damage still occurred. I think this is because of seal material and quality used by the manufacturer more so than anything else.

The main point about all of this for me is cost versus benefit. If the moly and tar lubes perform quite well, and allow excellent performance in an otherwise well assembled rifle, I see no compelling reason for the very high cost of a different lube where the benefits are very subjective and hard to quantify. So I'm simply not going to recommend someone spend the extra money. Not when attention to detail and doing things correctly negates the need to worry about problems, which should be a non issue anyways. No amount of expensive lube is going to fix a poorly honed cylinder, a badly fitted spring, or an incorrectly installed seal.

A 14 oz tube of Honda Moly 60 for example costs around $10.00. That would be enough to do a LOT of rifles, as in around 100. A 1.5 oz tub of moly paste with graphite from ARH is $8.00. A 3 oz tub $14.00
 
The cost of Ultimox 226 is around $27.00 before shipping for 40 grams on Amazon, or 1.4 ounces, and would be enough to do 4-7 or so rifles I would guess.

Two last things I'd like to point out.

Krytox might LOOK cleaner when used, but that's simply because it is harder to visually notice. It's actually a LOT harder to get off of anything it touches than grease, including hands, fingers, clothing etc etc. You might not see it as well as a petroleum grease, but it's there, and it wont want to come off even using most common powerful solvents. It's also a lot more difficult to remove after applying to a rifle, and  requires stringent cleaning practices before application. Any left over oils, greases not cleaned off of parts can interfere with its application and ability to adhere to surfaces, affecting its overall lubricating effectiveness.

Dieseling is really an easily dealt with issue. After performing many tunes, I can now finish up a rifle and at worst experience a few initial shots where trace amounts of lubes produce obvious dieseling, and subsequent shots show none. By break in, there is no smell or evidence of it at all. With my rifles showing very low SD's and ES's, this too tells me dieseling just isn't an issue.

Folks are of course always free to make their own decisions, and all anyone else can do is provide their own experience, opinion, and knowledge in good faith. The bottom line is to make the choice that seems right for you, and be satisfied with it.
 

 

[johnnail]

I had a tech from PA tell me to use automotive synthetic gear oil. I have not tried it

[OleTomCat]

I had a tech from PA tell me to use automotive synthetic gear oil. I have not tried it

I wouldn't...

[nced]

"Krytox might LOOK cleaner when used, but that's simply because it is harder to visually notice. It's actually a LOT harder to get off of anything it touches than grease, including hands, fingers, clothing etc etc. You might not see it as well as a petroleum grease, but it's there, and it wont want to come off even using most common powerful solvents. It's also a lot more difficult to remove after applying to a rifle, and  requires stringent cleaning practices before application. Any left over oils, greases not cleaned off of parts can interfere with its application and ability to adhere to surfaces, affecting its overall lubricating effectiveness."

Yep.......that's one of the attractions of the stuff for ME. Once applied I didn't want the stuff to wear off if it worked well! By the way, while petroleum based lubes won't blend with the innert Krytox/Ultimox, it also won't hurt the other lube in the mix. What happens is that the petroleum lube in the mix will outgas/oxidize in a normal manner and fail long before the Krytox/Ultimox in the mixture fails. Well....that's the reason Dupont gives for removing all petroleum based lubes from bearings before applying Krytox/Ultimox.

Anywhoo.......to me, the fact that it takes a special solvent to even remove the stuff is a plus! This means that the "Krytox type stuff" will stay around a LONG time after application, and the fact that it's also touted as a good "oring lube" (hence piston seal lube) was another positive consideration.

As far as cost is concerned, I can buy 3/4 oz of Ultimox 226 from an Ebay retailer for less than a tin of JSB pellets! The first time I bought Krytox 205 for testing I only bought 1/2 oz of the stuff and used it to liberally lube EVERY sliding/moving part of my R9 including piston, piston seal, receiver tube, cocking shoe, barrel pivot bolt and shims, spring, spring guide etc. and still had this much left over from the half ounce after the lube..........

Anywhoo.......yes you can get a "grease gun full" of Honda molly lube (good stuff by the way) for 10 bucks which will last a couple hundred years (if it doesn't dry out), but for less than $10 you can also get enough Ultimox 226 to completely lube several guns! Matter of fact, I found that with the Ultimox 226, applying sparingly is preferred, however a bit of lube in front of the piston seal isn't an issue like it is with the molly paste.

Actually, initially lubing with Krytox 205 I applied the stuff to the piston and liberally to the receiver ID (I would NEVER do that with molly paste) to test the "non-combustion" claims of Dupont. Ya know what, even with the first shot there was no evidence of dieseling!

[jfrich]

Ed "Battle" was a poor choice of word as I didn't mean to imply any animosity between proponents of differing materials. I apologize for any misconception I caused, because it was not my intent to imply anything other than friendly and at times passionate discussion of personal preferences.

jfrich:

[D14Jeff]

i think i'll follow CDTs advice when i get a springer debur , clean and lube ....

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=32482.0

The Moly and SuperLube are two completely different lubes that have their own purposes.  The SuperLube is used as and for part of the assembly process whereas the Moly is used as the true ongoing lube for the gun over a long period of time. The Moly is a must.    SuperLube is great for installing piston and seating the piston seal against the cylinder walls as it is being installed and and does help fill the imperfections with the Teflon, but it has no where near the lubing life and quality of the Moly.   It is very important that the Moly does not have a hi viscosity or thin carrier.

Shhh ... don't tell anybody     but one of my secrets when tuning was to apply the SuperLube on the walls and then install the piston and seal, move it in and out the distance of travel in the compression chamber needed about a dozen times, remove the piston, wipe out the cylinder, Moly lube the the piston as usual part of the procedure and finally install it. But it is important that the cylinder has been deburred well before doing this or you will surely cut the seal.

A point of interest regarding Moly.

Moly comes in many grades with many different carriers. A good Moly does have a bit of a gritty feeling to it but that is the wonder of a good Molly. The less percentage of Moly, the less you can feel it and the more you will just feel the carrier. The Moly is like small microscopic ball bearings and is used in applications where two metal surfaces rub back and forth against each other and is not usually used in applications as a rule on rotating surfaces or things like bearing using cones or cups.

Good Moly is very expensive. The Moly I used for tuning was a 77% Moly used in the Aerospace industry and if I recall it was almost $170.00 for 14 oz a number of years ago.   But.... that was enough to do close to 1000 guns, would hold up and do it's job forever.   That said though, JM's Moly is as good as the everyday airgun home tuner would ever need. It is well worth paying a little extra.

CDT

Hey .. not a problem Bryan. 

 One of the best reasons PakProtector (Douglas) as with so many other things, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  All of the lubes normally recommended for springers are tried and true and have been used by myself and other pro-tuners as well as a great many other DIYers over a period of many many years. They have proven to be about as good as it gets in springers, they don't fail and are not expensive. The guesswork has been taken out of it and the testing and evaluation has been done over the years by some of the best airgun mechanics there ever was. 

The question is my mind is why you seem to be pressing Krytox GPL 205 grease.   I looked at it and it certainly does not impress me, is very expensive, $25.00 and up for 1/2 ounce and doesn't appear to provide anything that's going to improve what is already being used by most of the people that work on guns now.  Why would or should anybody change?    My suggestion is that anybody that reads this, stick to the old proven and true. Ya can't go wrong there.

 And until something has been tested in several hundred guns over a period of time and positive meaningful results established, I wouldn't even consider it.

And to those that read this ... stick with what you know works and you will not wonder what went wrong.

CDT