Author Topic: XS60C PCP Repeater project (Read 456116 times))

stalwart · « **Reply #1020 on:** June 26, 2015, 04:12:48 PM »

Quote from: drewciferpike on June 26, 2015, 12:52:47 AM

Ooooooh... I feel a new thread coming on...

This one will just be for our general amusement. I'm thinking CO2, and if the basic fit is decent, I'll start adding gadgets just for fun. Modeling plastic has been a pastime for me since the mid 60's... I had better be able to do a passable job.

stalwart · « **Reply #1021 on:** June 29, 2015, 07:29:50 AM »

Well guys, it appears the Umarex Fusion is holding it's value in the market. Been out for quite a while, and hasn't seen a penny in discounts. They're selling. Good news for me... except for today.

Anyone feel like seeing what can be done to them? I do... so I just ordered one from Pyramyd.

As a Gen2, they have the trigger safety, and lack the Gen1's rear bolt retention device. This one will get a G1 metal trigger group, and rely on the G-slot mod for positive bolt retention and safety.

I have never done a trigger job on the G2s, but others have said it can't be made quite as nice as the G1. I prefer metal to plastic, so that's 2 strikes...

What do you think? Time for the Ultimate Fusion?

RHytonen · « **Reply #1022 on:** June 29, 2015, 10:21:05 AM »

Quote from: stalwart on June 29, 2015, 07:29:50 AM

Well guys, it appears the Umarex Fusion is holding it's value in the market. Been out for quite a while, and hasn't seen a penny in discounts. They're selling. Good news for me... except for today.

Anyone feel like seeing what can be done to them? I do... so I just ordered one from Pyramyd.

As a Gen2, they have the trigger safety, and lack the Gen1's rear bolt retention device. This one will get a G1 metal trigger group, and rely on the G-slot mod for positive bolt retention and safety.

I have never done a trigger job on the G2s, but others have said it can't be made quite as nice as the G1. I prefer metal to plastic, so that's 2 strikes...

What do you think? Time for the Ultimate Fusion?

I ordered my GENII XS/FD with 'no plastic' (and no safety) so I can't say for sure, but I thought I read the only plastic in the (FD) trigger group was the the cover and the little triangular backstop (the latter, an oversight which had to be retrofit on mine, but which was enthusiastically corrected by Mike. So he may be able to supply you with metal parts. He also upgraded my plastic GENII valve stop block with a steel one.)
There are people here with Fusions, and some with GENII FD's, so I'm sure you'll get a definite answer soon.

Rod

stalwart · « **Reply #1023 on:** June 30, 2015, 06:12:08 AM »

I'm very interested in comparing tolerances. My first 60 is G2, and the bolt fit better, even before the Teflon coating.

I'll note, here, any differences I find.

stalwart · « **Reply #1024 on:** July 01, 2015, 03:30:04 PM »

It's pretty clear (other threads) how much I like the G1's safety design (direct striker lock), and the ability to tune it to fine operation. This is the only thing I change about it, as I don't like auto safeties.

Cutting this tab off is all it takes:

StevenG · « **Reply #1025 on:** July 01, 2015, 07:46:00 PM »

I thought the G1 safety was not safe? I heard Mike removed them since if you fired it with the safety on, it would go off as soon as the safety was disabled.

stalwart · « **Reply #1026 on:** July 01, 2015, 08:45:01 PM »

I believe misunderstanding of the reason for the trigger group adjustability (fore and aft) may be responsible for the widely held belief that the designers messed up on the safety.

That adjustment is meant to allow adjusting the clearance on the sear to prevent the binding that causes the problems so many have with these.

If you look into the inspection port that shows the sear engagement, and adjust the fore and aft of the group, you will see that when the clearance is just enough for the safety to work properly, the striker does not have to travel far (a few thou) to engage the sear... and there is no loud (and HARD) click.

If you adjust this clearance properly, and then rely on preload adjustments, springs, or spacers to get the striker force you seek... you get to keep the safety. If too much slop is left, the trigger will transfer the striker to the safety's hook, too far for the sear to re-engage it. IT WILL THEN FIRE WHEN THE SAFETY IS DISENGAGED.

It is an unusual design, and frankly (IMO) a very clever one. It allows good critical function tolerances to be had, without critical machining tolerances (spelled $$$) being needed.

I set mine up with just enough clearance, and when my safety transfers the striker to the sear, I have a solid click... and nothing more... and the safety can be re-engaged (pulling the striker back off of the sear). There is a good reason the safety lever is stout, and thumb operated... it's so you can pull the striker back a few thou when engaging it while the gun is cocked. The Teflon striker mod makes that pull VERY smooth.

The .01" sear clearance (seen in the little window) is all that's needed to make sure pulling the trigger doesn't cause it to bind and stay in the pulled position, making the safety into a trigger.

If, with the safety on, you can pull the trigger, without the striker moving... and releasing it allows the sear to re-engage (watch in the window), your gun is performing as designed.

A maladjusted G1 is a danger to some... and I can understand why the striker locking type was abandoned. Properly fitted and adjusted, the safety is stout and positive.

BTW... I have come across guns that would need the R slot in the trigger housing elongated (forward) to get the proper clearance. A more involved option is to deepen the hook on the safety's pawl, or relieve the striker's engagement face... or both. I cheat, and reach into a parts bin to find stuff that fits. I submit it wasn't the designer's fault, but the production tolerances that made this design so hit and miss.

StevenG · « **Reply #1027 on:** July 01, 2015, 09:30:43 PM »

Darn good analysis! As usual.

stalwart · « **Reply #1028 on:** July 01, 2015, 10:07:41 PM »

Thank you, sir!

I plan to do a tutorial on all this, for the site. The G1s will eventually be left behind by the market... but never in my heart.

stalwart · « **Reply #1029 on:** July 01, 2015, 10:39:17 PM »

I should mention something I really like about removing the auto safety feature: When you cock a stocker with the safety on, it releases the safety, then immediately applies it again. With that tab gone, any time you cock the gun, it becomes ready to fire. As I use safeties only if interrupted (briefly) during the shooting cycle, I like the fact that I can't forget to take it off before firing off a quick one, from an uncocked state.

rokitman60 · « **Reply #1030 on:** July 02, 2015, 11:43:50 AM »

That tutorial sounds like a great idea. Being able to set things up to work EXACTLY how YOU want them to is a pearl of great price!!!!! I have never been satisfied having what somebody else thinks I should. Part of the reason you'll NEVER find an iPhone in my pocket...

stalwart · « **Reply #1031 on:** July 03, 2015, 12:32:29 AM »

Prepping to offer drop in trigger jobs in the Hobbyist gate, and thought I'd show you guys the differences in L, M, and S setups. They correspond with glove sizes.

Those who don't like the floppy fake 2stage set up can go even more refined in fit, by ordering the next size up, and epoxying the trigger in place at their optimum point.

I shape the sears to size, square and true them (in the Sherline, with a touch of positive engagement angle), then kiss them with a fine stone. They respond well to the work.

stalwart · « **Reply #1032 on:** July 04, 2015, 05:21:09 AM »

I guess we'll see how the Hobbyist Gate works. I got in a rhythm, and finished a nice little pile of triggers. There is a finite and dwindling supply of these things, so anyone who wants to send their stocker back to me gets $15 of shop credit.

I'm pretty proud of these. Anyone who has pulled my triggers knows I'm fussy about that kind of thing.

Kailua · « **Reply #1033 on:** July 04, 2015, 05:06:49 PM »

OOPs Had pics that did not load.

Kailua · « **Reply #1034 on:** July 04, 2015, 10:32:59 PM »

This is showing a bit of tinkering of the first and second generation XS60C triggers. Its just a first stage stop so the second pull length can be made longer or shorter. Not having a trigger scale but just a pull scale the trigger pull should be under a lb. Heavier or lighter hammer tension may change this.

The first picture is the second generation trigger group. The screw for the first stage stop assembly was cut short to clear for rear housing mounting screw.

Second picture is the first generation trigger housing. The screw for the first stage stop assembly can be longer because the trigger housing rear mounting screw can be installed before action is put into stock.
Where as the second generation trigger housing needs to be installed after the action is put into the stock.

Next three pictures just shows the parts and some fabrication info.

Last picture shows how I kept the rivet aligned straight while the epoxy cured.

stalwart · « **Reply #1035 on:** July 05, 2015, 02:46:43 AM »

That's a cool mod.

It brings up the perfect time to make a point about 2 stage triggers. This mod creates a TRUE 2 stage... the stocker is not. The difference: A true 2 stage uses the first stage to nearly defeat a generous (ultra safe) sear engagement, gives you a clear tactile indication that you are at the point of firing, then fires with a minimum of additional movement.

The stocker waits at the point of firing (single stage) and the trigger provides the input that you are about to reach it ... which I don't need (or, quite get... unless they want customers to think they have a Rekord equivalent).

Nice work, Paul.

rsterne · « **Reply #1036 on:** July 05, 2015, 03:43:56 PM »

Not an XS trigger, it's from the QB, but they are alike in function as two peas in a pod....

Note the spring loaded plunger in place of the overtravel screw.... That, plus a lighter trigger spring (which provides the first stage) gives a true 2-stage trigger.... They are a commercial part that fits in a 6-32 threaded hole....

Bob

Kailua · « **Reply #1037 on:** July 05, 2015, 05:02:39 PM »

Quote from: rsterne on July 05, 2015, 03:43:56 PM

Not an XS trigger, it's from the QB, but they are alike in function as two peas in a pod....

Note the spring loaded plunger in place of the overtravel screw.... That, plus a lighter trigger spring (which provides the first stage) gives a true 2-stage trigger.... They are a commercial part that fits in a 6-32 threaded hole....

Bob

A while back after making my first attempt of the two stage mod. I did remember seeing that two stage trigger mod and or the part being sold for the QBXX trigger. If there are more ways to skin a cat that mod may be way easier. I remember seeing the part only and duh didn't think of applying it to the XS60C.
There was a member who had just posted recently on the same trigger mod part that he had bought from Mcmaster Carr. I am quite sure it can be used on the XS60C triggers also.

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=92286.msg864627#msg864627

Thanks for posting that pic Bob. Got to love living and learning with all the tinkering. Even if you start doing things the hard way.

stalwart · « **Reply #1038 on:** July 05, 2015, 09:16:40 PM »

Paul, if you are ever on the mainland, and you're getting hungry... drop by. Anyone who doesn't mind doing things the hard way, in search of the easy way, has work waiting... right here.

You'd fit right in.

Kailua · « **Reply #1039 on:** July 05, 2015, 10:26:33 PM »

That's a great offer Eric. Even when doing things the hard way I may not realize it at the time but later on do find I have learned or pick up something on doing the next hard way project.

As for the trigger mod I think its worth doing no matter which method its done. JMO

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XS60C PCP Repeater project

Author Topic: XS60C PCP Repeater project (Read 456116 times))