The .177 for hunting ?

[Bryan Heimann]

I don't know about magnums necessarily being harsh.  I just shot my xs28m tuned by Mike and it is possibly one of the smoothest springers I've had the pleasure to shoot.  650 fps with a 25 grain pellet, 23.5 butter smooth foot-pounds of energy.  I've had a couple gas rams- forget about it.  This gun is better.  But back to the topic- it might be partly a cultural thing, but you probably won't catch man Americans hunting anything with 4 fpe at the muzzle.  Maybe grasshoppers.  If a 4 fpe springer is all you have to defend your garden and you can place the shot then I'm happy for you.  Si Pittaway mentioned something like 2 fpe on target actually being effective on bunnies.  I am not taking that risk.  I can get a gun that puts out 7 fpe at the muzzle and still put ten shots in a dime at ten yard with ease for $45- a daisy 880.  So I really don't see the point in pushing my limits and risking a wounded animal

[gandalfretlaw]

I should do some video. I was mostly testing for my own knowledge though. I think I have pictures somewhere.  I tested my Walther later on and it smashed through just like the NPXL but the pellets tended to break up inside more.

Here's a report I wrote:
*WARNING* Coconut shell is tough and round. A shot at a coconut that is not dead on or does not penetrate is likely to ricochet although a significant amount of energy may be absorbed. Eye protection is more than just a good idea.

I initially tried my Gamo Whisper.  Perfect dead on shots smash on the coconut or rebound form it. I tried RWS Superdomes and RWS Basic with the same results. You might wonder why I tried the match. Good question. Round headed projectiles are more likely to glance off a rounded target where pointed or flat head projectiles are more likely to dig in. However Round Heads are more likely to penetrate better on a accurate shot. For my testing I did not repeat shots in the same place or shoot at the seams or eyes.

There was almost no damage to the coconut. Just a somewhat polished spot where the bits of husk were removed. This was at about ten feet range although I took a couple shots from further first with even less damage. I should probably mention that just because it did not penetrate does not mean it wouldn't cause significant damage or death in a living organism, but it's unlikely to dispatch a tough animal.
Whisper 0 Coconut 6
RWS Superdome 800fps 12fpe
RWS Basic 900fps 13fpe

So I pulled out the big guns or gun in this case. The problem is I've been having scope/accuracy issues with my Trail NPXL 1100 22cal. I haven't shot it in quite a while. I did have accuracy issues shooting the coconut and was never quite sure exactly where to aim. When I glanced the coconut the thing spun like a top. However whenever I got a good shot it penetrated perfectly leaving the pellet buried in the meat on the far side of the coconut. So it had enough power to penetrate the husk, the tough shell, and about an inch of coconut meat and probably some coconut milk. I was shooting CPHPs and they expanded about a mm or more and lost about half a grain of their mass in the process.

Benjamin Trail XNXL 1100: 3 Coconut: 0
CPHP - 900fps 26fpe

I'd like to repeat the test at farther range. These shots were done around ten feet. I'd need to get the gun shooting better to do this though. From different ranges I could use chairgun to get various energy readings and find out about how much energy is necessary for good coconut penetration.

I have pictures of the test coconut and the retrieved pellets. The one 177 pellet I retrieved is nearly flat.

[jrhunter]

I think penetration will be roughly the same for a 177 at 900fps as a 22 at 900fps. Am I wrong on this.

not wrong, but if same power level, a .177 will require less energy to penetrate better (deeper) than a .22.

i mean, a 12fpe 177 will penetrate same was a .22 with 18fpe. All depends on pellet too, a hollow point will never penetrate so well like a domed or a pointed. And ofc, a 18fpe .22 will penetrate same was a .177 12fpe, but will have extra 6fpe. if you chose a specific gun, powerlevel will be the same for each caliber... not so big variations.

And ofc, there is the "loudness" of the calibers. If you hit a pigeon with a .22 or a .25... will make a bigger PLOOOOOOOOCKKKKK than a .177, cause the energy tranfer. But that dont mean a better or more human kill, dont forget that point.

I'll take a larger wound channel over potential over penetrating any day

[gandalfretlaw]

I think expansion really depends on speed (FPS). At lower velocities you're just not going to get the expansion. However the flip side is that over-expansion is the pellet breaking up. Still the pellet breaking up creates a lot of damage. Match/flat pellets expand very well.

[Bullit]

A Beeman Crow Mag expansion, from the lowly 12fpe .177,  is an eye opener.

[nunofrancisco]

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[Bryan Heimann]

Quite a lot more damage from a .25 crow magnum that has expanded.  I don't discount the effectiveness of a .177 air rifle.  I have dispatched snapping turtles in my youth with just a daisy 880 and most of the time all I had were bb's.  A mid-powered .177 springer with a soft tune is probably the best all around spring gun out there, and will stand out with well placed headshots on mid sized critters like raccoons as long as you don't stretch it out too far.  But against tougher critters at extended ranges the bigger calibers have their place too.  Realistically , if the gun is accurate and the hunter is capable, they will outshine a mid or low powered .177.  I like hunting with a light .177 rifle and by no means am I against it, but you ought not look down your nose at people who prefer to use more gun for the sake of making a humane kill.

Edit-  Also, most people don't have the knowledge of anatomy or the skills to make consistent humane kills with guns at bare minimum lethal power levels, or at extended ranges.  So a powerful .25 pcp that can smash through the nasal cavity of a raccoon into it's brain is a more logical choice.  Or a powerful spring gun that can put a dome pellet into the heart of a woodchuck from 50 or 60 yards.  Also, the challenge of shooting a magnum springer in itself can be the primary factor in a given person's preferred air rifle

[AudiS4]

@Nunoxxxx To brag about killing a bird at 55 yards, with a 4 fpe gun, is just sad.  You will not make that shot 10/10, so just stop it. Shoot at targets please. Just a minimal puff of wind, will make you miss your goal, and wound your animal target. You need a hunting lesson, and you need it bad.

To you two arguing that penetration (.177) is best for hunting, is equally sad, and clearly shows how little you know about what kills animals. You want as much energy as possible to enter the animal, and not continue with 90 % energy when exiting the animal..............

It is not about to show how little force and brains, you can produce a kill with. It is about what is best for hunting.

[gandalfretlaw]

A Beeman Crow Mag expansion, from the lowly 12fpe .177,  is an eye opener.

Doing the math that lowly 12fpe gun is shooting the Crow Mag at 784fps. I don't really think that qualifies as low velocity although I do like a little higher speed.

[Bryan Heimann]

@Nunoxxxx To brag about eliminating a bird at 55 yards, with a 4 fpe gun, is just sad.  You will not make that shot 10/10, so just stop it. Shoot at targets please. Just a minimal puff of wind, will make you miss your goal, and wound your animal target. You need a hunting lesson, and you need it bad.

To you two arguing that penetration (.177) is best for hunting, is equally sad, and clearly shows how little you know about what kills animals. You want as much energy as possible to enter the animal, and not continue with 90 % energy when exiting the animal..............

It is not about to show how little force and brains, you can produce a kill with. It is about what is best for hunting.

You know, I didn't want to say it, but I'm glad somebody did. 

[Geoff]

22 cal expansion on 2 pellets I tested show up at about 12 seconds into the video.


Shot with my 2400kt

[Bryan Heimann]

A Beeman Crow Mag expansion, from the lowly 12fpe .177,  is an eye opener.

Doing the math that lowly 12fpe gun is shooting the Crow Mag at 784fps. I don't really think that qualifies as low velocity although I do like a little higher speed.

Yep.  Lead pellets begin to fragment on impact with a hard surface at around 600 fps.  You start getting closer to the threshold where it is a tradoff between penetration and expansion/damage.  Also the heavier construction of larger pellets hold up better at higher velocities.  .177 guns are capable, and 12 fpe in .177 is still a mid-range gun.  At one point only "magnums" were capable of shooting at this power level.  You can't really compare that to a sub- 6 fpe springer

[gandalfretlaw]

Not really sure how this factors in. The 177 1400fps Walther penetrated coconut just fine with several pellets most of them supersonic. They did break up inside though. The destroyers separated leaving a ring outside and the center penetrating. I got it to go subsonic with Beeman Kodiac Coppers 10.5gn. 

[Bullit]

A Beeman Crow Mag expansion, from the lowly 12fpe .177,  is an eye opener.

Doing the math that lowly 12fpe gun is shooting the Crow Mag at 784fps. I don't really think that qualifies as low velocity although I do like a little higher speed.

Yep.  Lead pellets begin to fragment on impact with a hard surface at around 600 fps.  You start getting closer to the threshold where it is a tradoff between penetration and expansion/damage.  Also the heavier construction of larger pellets hold up better at higher velocities.  .177 guns are capable, and 12 fpe in .177 is still a mid-range gun.  At one point only "magnums" were capable of shooting at this power level.  You can't really compare that to a sub- 6 fpe springer

LOL

[grobe1458]

my personal preference in caliber is .177, to each their own, what matters is that whatever you use you use it to it's best and apply your best using it.
a humane kill is a animal that doesn't run around for hours or days before dying. I've seen a lot of deer run a short distance with a H&L shot before dropping. for me when hunting I know the limits of my weapon, know my limits, and I do my best. just because you can hit 10/10 on paper doesn't mean you will do that during a hunting scenario when the prey can or will make sudden movements.
a head shot is about the most humane in my opinion, H&L the prey will suffer some type of pain.
so if all a squirrel needs is 3ft.lbs and your rifle delivers 4 at the POI then to me that meets the requirement. sending 10+ft.lbs won't kill it any better.*LOL* that's like using a sledgehammer to bang in penny nails. I personally wouldn't be shooting a weak gun but if that's what I had to work with I would within my limits.

 I found this below.
 Impact Energy Requirements for Hunting Various Animals
This is to assist in using the correct pellet and gun for the varmit to enable the correct shot for a quick, clean, humane kill

Sparrow                               2.0ft-lbsPP
Valley Pocket Gopher -        3.0ft-lbs**
Squirrel  -                             3.0ft-lbs
Pigeon -                               3.0ft-lbs
Rabbit -                                5.0ft-lbs
Crow -                                  5.0ft-lbs
Groundhogs                         10+ft-lbs
Raccoon -                             40ft-lbs**
Fox -                                     65ft-lbs**

Lower fpe estimates from another independent source
Gray squirrel/Fox Squirrel - 4.5fpe
Eastern Cottontail/Swamp Rabbit - 4fpe
Jack Rabbit White, Black, and Jack O' lope - 4.5fpe
Raccoon/ Bandit -  10fpe.
Virginia Opossum/ County Rat - 10fpe
Ground Hog/ Wood Chuck - 7-8fpe
Gray Fox - 8.5fpe
Red Fox - 9.5-10fpe
Bobcat - 9fpe
Crow - 3.5 fpe head, 6fpe body/vitals
Pigeon - 3 fpe head, 5fpe body/vitals
Sparrow - 2.5fpe


Typical Pellet Velocity (fps) for Required Energy

Racoon
.22
920fps with 21.4 gn (Beeman Kodiak)
790fps with  28.4 gn (Eun Jin)
(the Benjamin Marauder can't use Eun Jin pellets because they are too long for the magazines even with machining)

Crow or Rabbit 5.0ft-lbs
.177
535fps with 7.9gr pellets = 5.0ft-lbs
.22
400fps with 14.3gr pellets = 5.1gr pellets

Squirrel - Starling - Pigeon-Pocket Gopher 3.0ft-lbs
.177
415fps with 7.9gr pellets = 3.0ft-lbs
.22
310fps with 14.3gr pellets = 3.1ft-lbs

Sparrow - Mouse 2.0ft-lbs
.177
345fps with 7.9gr pellets = 2.1ft-lbs
.22
255fps with 14.3gr pellets = 2.1ft-lbs

Benjamin Marauder 2500 psi Factory Settings Pellet Energy and FPS
    Crosman Premier Domed 14.3gn  -                   850 fps  22.95 ft-lbs
    Crosman Premier Hollowpoint 14.3 gn -             850 fps  22.95 ft-lbs
    Beeman Kodiak 21.4 gn-                                 750 fps   26.74 ft-lbs
    Gamo Magnum 15.89 gr -                                870 fps   26.71 ft-lbs**
    RWS Superdome 14.5 gr -                               891 fps   25.57 ft-lbs**
    RWS Superpoint 14.5 gr -                                887 fps   25.34 ft-lbs**
    RWS Super H Point 14.2 gr -                           891 fps   25.04 ft-lbs **
    Hobby 11.9 gr -                                               921 fps   22.42 ft-lbs**
    Gamo Raptor PBA 9.9 gr -                               965 fps   20.48 ft-lbs**

[jrhunter]

my personal preference in caliber is .177, to each their own, what matters is that whatever you use you use it to it's best and apply your best using it.
a humane kill is a animal that doesn't run around for hours or days before dying. I've seen a lot of deer run a short distance with a H&L shot before dropping. for me when hunting I know the limits of my weapon, know my limits, and I do my best. just because you can hit 10/10 on paper doesn't mean you will do that during a hunting scenario when the prey can or will make sudden movements.
a head shot is about the most humane in my opinion, H&L the prey will suffer some type of pain.
so if all a squirrel needs is 3ft.lbs and your rifle delivers 4 at the POI then to me that meets the requirement. sending 10+ft.lbs won't kill it any better.*LOL* that's like using a sledgehammer to bang in penny nails. I personally wouldn't be shooting a weak gun but if that's what I had to work with I would within my limits.

 I found this below.
 Impact Energy Requirements for Hunting Various Animals
This is to assist in using the correct pellet and gun for the varmit to enable the correct shot for a quick, clean, humane kill

Sparrow                               2.0ft-lbsPP
Valley Pocket Gopher -        3.0ft-lbs**
Squirrel  -                             3.0ft-lbs
Pigeon -                               3.0ft-lbs
Rabbit -                                5.0ft-lbs
Crow -                                  5.0ft-lbs
Groundhogs                         10+ft-lbs
Raccoon -                             40ft-lbs**
Fox -                                     65ft-lbs**

Lower fpe estimates from another independent source
Gray squirrel/Fox Squirrel - 4.5fpe
Eastern Cottontail/Swamp Rabbit - 4fpe
Jack Rabbit White, Black, and Jack O' lope - 4.5fpe
Raccoon/ Bandit -  10fpe.
Virginia Opossum/ County Rat - 10fpe
Ground Hog/ Wood Chuck - 7-8fpe
Gray Fox - 8.5fpe
Red Fox - 9.5-10fpe
Bobcat - 9fpe
Crow - 3.5 fpe head, 6fpe body/vitals
Pigeon - 3 fpe head, 5fpe body/vitals
Sparrow - 2.5fpe


Typical Pellet Velocity (fps) for Required Energy

Racoon
.22
920fps with 21.4 gn (Beeman Kodiak)
790fps with  28.4 gn (Eun Jin)
(the Benjamin Marauder can't use Eun Jin pellets because they are too long for the magazines even with machining)

Crow or Rabbit 5.0ft-lbs
.177
535fps with 7.9gr pellets = 5.0ft-lbs
.22
400fps with 14.3gr pellets = 5.1gr pellets

Squirrel - Starling - Pigeon-Pocket Gopher 3.0ft-lbs
.177
415fps with 7.9gr pellets = 3.0ft-lbs
.22
310fps with 14.3gr pellets = 3.1ft-lbs

Sparrow - Mouse 2.0ft-lbs
.177
345fps with 7.9gr pellets = 2.1ft-lbs
.22
255fps with 14.3gr pellets = 2.1ft-lbs

Benjamin Marauder 2500 psi Factory Settings Pellet Energy and FPS
    Crosman Premier Domed 14.3gn  -                   850 fps  22.95 ft-lbs
    Crosman Premier Hollowpoint 14.3 gn -             850 fps  22.95 ft-lbs
    Beeman Kodiak 21.4 gn-                                 750 fps   26.74 ft-lbs
    Gamo Magnum 15.89 gr -                                870 fps   26.71 ft-lbs**
    RWS Superdome 14.5 gr -                               891 fps   25.57 ft-lbs**
    RWS Superpoint 14.5 gr -                                887 fps   25.34 ft-lbs**
    RWS Super H Point 14.2 gr -                           891 fps   25.04 ft-lbs **
    Hobby 11.9 gr -                                               921 fps   22.42 ft-lbs**
    Gamo Raptor PBA 9.9 gr -                               965 fps   20.48 ft-lbs**

Every new airgun hunter  hunt with I tell them to  use a rifle that can make 8-12+ ft.lbs on impact at the distance they plan on hunting ( this is for HOSP to rabbit ). I take raccoons with my 18-20 ft.lbs gas ram .22 and never lost one, no need for 40 ft.lbs

[AK73]

Is the .22 better for small game than the .177? Yes, it doesn't overpenetrate as much and it has more knockdown power. But if I can hit the kill zone easily with a .177, I really don't care. I think as long as the gun has plenty of FPE and is accurate, caliber doesn't really matter. I've taken tons of squirrels very cleanly with the .177 caliber.

[nunofrancisco]

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[jrhunter]

LOL, im not the one who need "airgun lessions" here.

was i told to Bullit, i have fun read some statements than people does. You should not even OPEN a post, trying help some1.

and once again, im glad "someone" told me that, just to prove how ignorant some people can be

And, to end my participation here, i will bet here, than i will put more game at larger distances, with a low power .177 airgun, than too many here who play with "big boys airguns" then do body shots.... than make the prays sufer till they end breathing. They wont headshot, cause they dont have the skill, and the "big fpe wepons" are too harsh to try head shots.

Why dont you spend some time on youtube, checking 10.5fpe guns kill at 80-90 yards more on UK? would be a nice lession.

And if i need a big power baby, i grab my hog .300 win magnum to kill a rabbit. that way, im sure i would ratter expasion versus the penetrarion... if i want to SMASH his body.


Why dont you, power freaks, spend more time reading airgun books? before do false statements?


i will give by closed my participation here, and glad to thanks to Bullit, than looks he know the way how a gun can be efective, on low-med power. Thanks men, its always a plazer talk with you 

The less energy you have the less likely you get a clean kill. And before you go of again about using your .300 for rabbit, the .300 is for elk, moose, black bear, and brown bear not rabbits. Air rifles with 10+ ft.lbs are for hunting small game, any less should be left for close range birds.

[nunofrancisco]

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