1322: # of pumps and POI change

[Bill in SC]

Sitting here in anticipation of my modified 1322 arrival tomorrow or Tuesday got me to thinkin'. I shot a few pumpers as a kid some 50 years ago. We always pumped them to the max, knowing that velocity increased with more pressure. They most always shot very accurately. Now, being grown and realizing a lot more about the physics of projectile flight, I thought of something I hadn't considered. I mainly hope to use my new to me 1322 for 3 to 4 pump plinking at close range, 20 feet or so, some even less distance, inside. With that said, I still may also choose to hunt with it pumping to maximum velocity. Say I zero my scope in at 3 or 4 pumps regardless of what distance I zero it in. Then, at the same distance with more pumps, won't the POI creep slightly higher with each subsequent pump? Just curious as to how you folks set your scopes using airguns that are variably powered.
Bill in SC
Thinking some more
I guess if POI shifts higher with maximum velocity, I can compensate with the mil dots. I can do some measuring on paper and make the calculations.

[pistolero]

Try it and let us know. Sight it in at 25' with 3 pumps or whatever. Shoot it at 40' then 50' and see how many pumps gets you dead center.

[pistolero]

 If you are using a scope, the line of sight is 1.5"-2" above the bore. If you site in very close like the 20' you mentioned, you will be WAY high out at 20-30 yards.
 That close I wouldn't think there would be as much difference in a few pumps. Out a little further where you have more pellet drop more pumps should noticably bring up the POI.

[Bill in SC]

If you are using a scope, the line of sight is 1.5"-2" above the bore. If you site in very close like the 20' you mentioned, you will be WAY high out at 20-30 yards.
 That close I wouldn't think there would be as much difference in a few pumps. Out a little further where you have more pellet drop more pumps should noticably bring up the POI.

It will be an easy task to figure it out. I was just wondering how folks with pumper experience dealt with it, or if there was anything noticeable TO deal with. Thanks for the reply!

[Railbuggy]

Hi Bill
   I made it to 60 this past August. I picked up a crosman 2289g with the 12" barrel last month. I installed the steel breech kit on mine and have a 24" barrel for longer range pinking. My short range is 30 feet away and I find that my carbine needs 5 pumps to shoot 1" groups. With my target at 80 foot I need 7 or more pumps to keep my groups under 3 inchs. I have a TruGlo 3.5x10x44 scope mounted on mine. 5x gives me the clearest picture at both 30 and 80 ft range. I haven't tested mine beyond my 80ft range yet.

[D14Jeff]

are you gonna scope it ? if so get a mil-dot scope . center the intersection of the crosshairs for your preferred distance for full power . use a lower mil-dot for lower power at your chosen range

[Bill in SC]

Hi Bill
   I made it to 60 this past August. I picked up a crosman 2289g with the 12" barrel last month. I installed the steel breech kit on mine and have a 24" barrel for longer range pinking. My short range is 30 feet away and I find that my carbine needs 5 pumps to shoot 1" groups. With my target at 80 foot I need 7 or more pumps to keep my groups under 3 inchs. I have a TruGlo 3.5x10x44 scope mounted on mine. 5x gives me the clearest picture at both 30 and 80 ft range. I haven't tested mine beyond my 80ft range yet.

Congrats on the 60! I'll be there in May, Good Lord willin'.

are you gonna scope it ? if so get a mil-dot scope . center the intersection of the crosshairs for your preferred distance for full power . use a lower mil-dot for lower power at your chosen range

Yessir, she's coming with a mil dot scope. I find the mil dots particularly suited well to airguns and figure to adjust as you suggested. Reckon I shouldn't have posted a question I pretty much knew the answer to, but I was just incredulous that I hadn't thought of the POI shift with variable powers. I guess that the PCP folks deal with this all the time, turning them up, turning them down.

[lillysdad621]

you could always go for the opposite school of thought. I normally do not pump my "pumpers" to their max. Only to where is comfortable to pump, and then i learn the trajectory. it does not matter where the target is, at 5 pumps my sheridan will shoot 565 fps and it will do great at 10 yards or 40. paper or fur. My 1322 is designed as a hunter so i do pump it to 10 pumps all the time... but i do not plink with it. The 1377 i only pump 6 times... indoors or out doors. I know that at 35 yards i need to hold 1 mil dot high. from 10 to 22 is dead on. both with 6 pumps... which is not tiring and is quicker than you think. My powermaster 66 is shot at 7 pumps. open sights out to 30 yards, with a zero at 15 yards is not more than 1/2 inch off. I use it for knocking shotgun shell off the fence. aim on the very top at 30 yards, they go flying. shoot them at 10 yards and aim smack in the middle of the shell. same result. learn the best pressure your gun likes and use it and learn the trajectory. Changing zeroes depending on the velocity and amout of pumps is counterintuitive. one set number of pumps and you are set. And not necessarily max pumping...

[pistolero]

Changing zeroes depending on the velocity and amout of pumps is counterintuitive.

How so? In your example of aiming high at 30 yards I'm just saying put 2 or 3 more pumps in and NOT changing zero. Learn how many pumps to adjust for range and aim dead on every shot.

[lillysdad621]

pistolero. The velocity of the pellet does not go up conmessurate to the pumps you give it in a linear pattern (the first 3 pumps make the velocity go up 50 to 60 fps... pumps number 8,9 or 10 will give you smaller gains, in the teens at best.) and you may not replicate the pressure you put on your last shot's 3rd pump for example (maybe you pumped it faster and it did not draw as much air...). Therefore aiming with the number of pumps is not and has never been a reliable way to hit a target. The only rifle so far capable of that was the Titan sidelever PCP (circa late 80s, early 90s) and it only took 3 pumps to fill. But you could shoot it at 5 fpe, 9 fpe or 12 fpe. and i doubt the 13xx valve would be as good at metering as the one on that titan. I imagine that all this playing around with the pump number is to circumvent the bane of the pump up guns, which is that we need to pump them up... and is a PITA. but by learning to use a diminished number of pumps on all occasions we save a lot of pumping. Best example is the sheridan i mentioned. there is no need to go over 5 pumps. 10 pumps does not kill the squirrel better at 40 yards. dead is dead. and you get it dead by making sure that you can hit the kill zone consistently. after 5 pumps it gets harder and harder to pump... tiring you more with no noticeable reward. And aiming high is not changing zero. is holding over.

[pistolero]

"The velocity of the pellet does not go up conmessurate to the pumps you give it in a linear pattern"
True. I never said that it does.

"you get it dead by making sure that you can hit the kill zone consistently."
True. That pretty much goes without saying. If they they "hit the kill zone", using a different method than you, are they wrong?   

[lillysdad621]

is not that "my " method is right and "theirs" is wrong... is not my method at all, neither i took credit for coming up with it. I am just stating a fact that "pumping" unless done by a machine is not the same every time, and is shown that velocity will not be consistent, which you need to be able to predict where your impact will be... but i guess you already knew that. I am not getting into a ^*%$#@ contest with you. Shoot what ever way you feel like.

Is always when you try to answer someone else's  question and help someone that some people think that they are in a contest to see who is right. And quoting posts... please john... If you really belive in your method then that is what you are saying. And hitting the kill zone and just hopefully hitting a target is not the same. When you dont give importance to giving an animal a humane end by not using the most efficient shot possible, well then, that speaks volumes. If you don't have anything constructive to say, then please say nothing at all.

[lillysdad621]

By the way... sighting at 20 feet (almost 7 yards) using a fully pumped 1322 with 14.3 gr (about 425 fps) will only put you about 1/2 inch above the line of sight on a scope 1 3/4 inches high at about 15 yards. Not way high. In fact at 20 yards you will be about on target... and at 30 about 2 1/2 to 3 inches low. Please run your "facts" before you post.

[pistolero]

"is not that "my " method is right and "theirs" is wrong... "
 I didn't start any peeing contest. I never said anybody was wrong YOU WROTE: "aiming with the number of pumps is not and has never been a reliable way to hit a target."

"I am just stating a fact that "pumping" unless done by a machine is not the same every time, and is shown that velocity will not be consistent, which you need to be able to predict where your impact will be... "
 If pumping by hand is so inconsistent and unpredictable, why does it work for your first 6 pumps?

"When you dont give importance to giving an animal a humane end by not using the most efficient shot possible, well then, that speaks volumes."
 I don't know where you came up with this one. I never suggested he learn his trajectory by shooting at live targets.

"Is always when you try to answer someone else's  question and help someone that some people think that they are in a contest to see who is right."
 Same as above. Noone said your way was wrong. You said noone can hit a target by varying the number of pumps.


"If you really belive in your method then that is what you are saying."
 Show me where I said I believe in any method. I don't have a dog in this fight. I just asked you a question when you espoused one. What I  said in my first post in this thread was: "Try it and let us know. Sight it in at 25' with 3 pumps or whatever. Shoot it at 40' then 50' and see how many pumps gets you dead center."

"And quoting posts... please john... "
Yeah, so? I'm quoting what you posted word for word. In contrast to you putting words in my mouth. Show me where I said anything remotely like either "more pumps give a velocity increase in a linear fashion" or that I condone in any way not giving the proper "importance to giving an animal a humane end"?? By all means quote anything I write here as much as you wish, I would much prefer that to the crazy stuff you are implying I "believe", from out of nowhere, with absolutely no basis in fact. 
 
  I never said there was anything wrong with your method. You came in and said changing pumps is counterintuitive, inconsistent, and unpredictable. I asked how so. I will ask questions, if that bothers you I can't help it.
 

[pistolero]

By the way... sighting at 20 feet (almost 7 yards) using a fully pumped 1322 with 14.3 gr (about 425 fps) will only put you about 1/2 inch above the line of sight on a scope 1 3/4 inches high at about 15 yards. Not way high. In fact at 20 yards you will be about on target... and at 30 about 2 1/2 to 3 inches low. Please run your "facts" before you post.

OK you got me there. I've not had or shot a 22 cal airgun yet. I had no idea a 1322 would shoot that slow.

[lillysdad621]

as i said, with what you said, (quoting is unnecesary) you truly make the assumption that it will work when you probably have never tried it. AS per being humane... well implying an unreliable method of targeting will provide with accuracy, well that also shows me that if you do support your theory then is safe to assume that : A) you just want to hit in a near enough area, but then that is more like hoping for a hit, Or B) you have little regard for accuracy, and in case the original poster decides to follow your idea, and pest or hunt with its gun, the result would be less than ideal. So be careful when you "give advice" when you are not 100% sure. You do not know the level of experience and how they might take your idea. As per asking...are they wrong for not using "my" (again... another fallacy as i never took ownership of a targeting method probably as old as pump guns themselves...), well, I never said they were wrong. so your answer there in NO. But you certainly thought that I was implying so... Maybe if you spend more time reading than typing you would have noticed that i did not accuse anyone of being wrong. Just put out another method that , if you were out there trying both, eventually would come to understand why i brought it up. As per inconsistent pumping... it is a fallible point of all pumpers... but when you pump 6 times or the more you pump, the lesser the effect, you may get a more consistent amount of air. works like this: 1 crappy pump, crappy amount of air, crappy velocity. one crappy pump plus , say, 2 regular pumps... well you might be closer in velocity to 3 pumps  than the 1 crappy is to 1. 2 crappy pumps out of 10... you might not notice it. again, go out and try it on a chrony.
And proven fact that you are just trolling this thread,  I've not had or shot a 22 cal airgun yet. I had no idea a 1322 would shoot that slow. But you sure seem persistent about knowing that you can aim with different number of pumps.

[pistolero]

"(quoting is unnecesary)"
Unfortunately it is, because this is what I actually wrote, copied and pasted from my first post in this thread, in quotes, ONE MORE TIME:
"Try it and let us know. Sight it in at 25' with 3 pumps or whatever. Shoot it at 40' then 50' and see how many pumps gets you dead center."

"you truly make the assumption"
 No, YOU are making all of the assumptions. Please tell me how in the world, from the statement above, do you get I'm telling him that if he tries varying the number of pumps, that it's OK for him to shoot live critters, even if his accuracy goes down the tubes?

"Maybe if you spend more time reading than typing"
 I'm glad you aren't interested in a ^*%$#@ contest. Who really has the reading comprehension problem here?

"I never said they were wrong. so your answer there in NO. But you certainly thought that I was implying so... "
 Yes I did think you were implying so. You said "aiming with the number of pumps is not and has never been a reliable way to hit a target", and that pumping is inconsistent, unreliable, and unpredictable. So it's a stretch for me to assume you meant it's "wrong", but you assuming I'm OK'ing someone to shoot at game with an innacurate gun from my statement is not?
  You espoused a smaller number of pumps because it's easier, then in a subsequent post explained how more pumps is actually more consistent, and that makes perfect sense. Could I not reason that YOU are condoning shooting at game with a less accurate method???

"But you sure seem persistent about knowing that you can aim with different number of pumps."
 PLEASE show me where I wrote that? YOU are certainly sure that NOONE CAN. So much so that just saying "go ahead and try it" (on targets) means I'm irresponsibly giving people the go-ahead to wound game.

[BenjiHunter]

Mine is sighted at 10 yards using 15 pumps.
Secondary zero is at about 19 yards.
At 6 pumps it shoots about 0.4 inches low at 10 yards.

[pistolero]

Posted by TimmyMac1
May 21, 2013
"Power is adjustable. Trajectory is inevitable. I would set it up to go three pumps at 10 yards and add more pumps the farther you reach out to stay on target. That is the most practical use of a MUlti is to pump only as much as you need or "shoot more pump less" as I like to say."

"Pump enough to get the job done. Know where it will go if you pump more."

That was from reply#2 on this thread:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=47431.msg445856#msg445856
ETA: Notice in the OP it was stated he is shooting "squirrels/birds/rabbits"


Looky there, lillysdad was posting on that thread, too! Both before and after TimmyMac1's post. Why didn't you tell him how irresponsible that was then? It was just 5 months ago. I missed the part where you accused HIM of telling everyone it's fine to shoot game and not care about hitting it right. And he didn't even just tell someone to try it. I think he actually WAS IMPLYING IT WOULD WORK.
 Now I see why you don't care for quoting. Or am I just assuming that too?

[lillysdad621]

no, not at all... but Tim has decades of tuning experience and has also been know to "perfect" airgun powerplants. In his case he speaks of a steroided sheridan/benjamin. If you do read the whole thread you see i still support to learn 1 trajectory at a "comfortable level" of pumps. So that is my opinion there too.  There is space between 2 impact points at say 2 and 3 pumps respectively... how do you expect to pump "enough to hit it"? pump 2.6 times? makes no sense. Then Tim also makes the point of using enough pump to get the job done. You mean just hit paper, or hit the actual target? I assume he speaks power. And shoot more, pump less also refers to only use the pumps you need. as i said, I use 5 and that is all i need. I know that trajectory so well i dont even have the gun scoped and can hit with the open sights covering the target. why try to go 6 pumps? or 7? just raise the front sight a bit more, or the reticule a bit more and you are there. No guessing where is going to go because memorizing 1 trajectory is easier than memorizing 2, or 10 for that matter.I do actually tell tim that i rather have 1 trajectory than more. But notice that with all the years he has into airgunning, he respects my opinion as much as i respect his and him. He then does not intend to pummel his theory, as much as i dont try to push mine on him. That is where you went wrong. And the beginning of that thread is about diminishing returns of overpumping.
counterintuitive: not what you would do by instinct, not the easiest way. learning 10 trajectories IS counterintuitive. learn 1 and practice more. It will make you a better shot, trust me.
I think that sentence is what got your BDUs in a bunch. look up, no need to quote. Also the fact that few pumps will allow for less of a average volume of air is just logic. That is why  I said 5 on the dan, 10 on the 1322, and so on and so forth on at least my guns. You may assume that i have been trying to find the right number for each gun. and that is what I based my opinion on. Is that cool with you?