CF Tank Question

[UpInSmoke]

Hi All, I was wondering what the general opinion is of the fairly inexpensive surplus rescue bottles.  I was looking at a 4500 PSI 1 Hour tank that had a couple years left till it hit the 15 year expiration.  What would you say was a reasonable price for such a tank?

I appreciate any insights, SCUBA tanks are heavy, my back is wrecked, and it is quite a drive to fill anything.  I can't afford a new one, but a used one every couple of years is doable. Kinda like the Costco principle, you feel like you are loosing money when you can't afford to buy the bargain size.  Just because I can't afford the Costco Jumbo pack of toilet paper doesn't mean I'm not buying any...I'll just have to do it more often, and yes, money is going down a cost-averaged rat-hole...

Ideas, links, and good natured teasing of my unfortunate social-economic position are welcome!


Dave 

[Acapulco]

Ive seen them go for 100 on up, but keep in mind you'll still need to buy the hose. What ever you do don't go cheap, remember your dealing w/ 4500 psi.

[UpInSmoke]

Ive seen them go for 100 on up, but keep in mind you'll still need to buy the hose. What ever you do don't go cheap, remember your dealing w/ 4500 psi.

Will a standard SCUBA adapter fit on them?

[Motorhead]

Ive seen them go for 100 on up, but keep in mind you'll still need to buy the hose. What ever you do don't go cheap, remember your dealing w/ 4500 psi.

Will a standard SCUBA adapter fit on them?

NOPE,
SCBA valves, manifolds, hoses etc are PRESSURE SPECIFIC fitment.  NOTHING SCUBA OR PAINTBALL related should be used with 4500# HPA set ups.

[UpInSmoke]

Ive seen them go for 100 on up, but keep in mind you'll still need to buy the hose. What ever you do don't go cheap, remember your dealing w/ 4500 psi.

Will a standard SCUBA adapter fit on them?

NOPE,
SCBA valves, manifolds, hoses etc are PRESSURE SPECIFIC fitment.  NOTHING SCUBA OR PAINTBALL related should be used with 4500# HPA set ups.

Your answer was perfect, I just asked the wrong question.  Is there a HPA rated Valve that my Benji fill adapter could mount to?

[Motorhead]

Not knowing specific Fill Adapter you speak of ? ... but in all likelyhood NO.
About the only time you see the lower 3000# hose & filler hardware on a 4500 SCBA set up is on those tanks when a REGULATOR on tanks manifold is present. ( ** Even then due to regulation being adjustable likely able to discharge the full 4500# These lower pressure hoses and manifolds are NOT A GOOD IDEA ! )

To see and read up on these specialized SCBA set up, go here and do some reading.
** http://www.airtanksforsale.com/

[UpInSmoke]

Not knowing specific Fill Adapter you speak of ? ... but in all likelyhood NO.
About the only time you see the lower 3000# hose & filler hardware on a 4500 SCBA set up is on those tanks when a REGULATOR on tanks manifold is present. ( ** Even then due to regulation being adjustable likely able to discharge the full 4500# These lower pressure hoses and manifolds are NOT A GOOD IDEA ! )

To see and read up on these specialized SCBA set up, go here and do some reading.
** http://www.airtanksforsale.com/

Thanks Motorhead, you saved me from starting another embarrassing newb thread...I'll read up and post here if I have any more questions.  Who am I kidding, of course I'll have more questions...

This just seems the route to go, comparing fill counts SCBA to SCUBA, for a big tank, even one with a short life would be worth the money and heck, I enjoy learning new stuff, that is what hobbies are for!

[Gertrude]

another source of good info and decent prices would be to contact Tim at Mac-1.
 He sells used, freshly hydro'd SCBA's with all the proper fittings.

 DO NOT go cheap,... or buy from untrusted sources,.... (like ebay sellers), when you are dealing with 4500psi.

 A member here recently was tore up pretty badly by a failed fitting setup.
 He's VERY lucky it was not worse.

Maybe someone here can provide a link to that thread, just so you know how important it is to your safety, and anyone around you too.

[ScottB]

I just bought one from this guy. It is a nice tank, He threw in a bunch of extras. Give him a call
http://www.network54.com/Forum/278474/message/1366161153/Got+a+line+on+new-never+used+tanks+that+have+a+couple+of+years+left.....

[UpInSmoke]

I just bought one from this guy. It is a nice tank, He threw in a bunch of extras. Give him a call
http://www.network54.com/Forum/278474/message/1366161153/Got+a+line+on+new-never+used+tanks+that+have+a+couple+of+years+left.....

OK, so I found the bottle, with a valve.  It is used with 3 years left on it for what seems to be the going rate for one that age.  From there I know I need a fill hose with a gauge... Suggestions??

[Gertrude]

Tim is a well respected, active contributing member and vendor here.
 He is a wealth of knowledge and experience.
here is a link to his website...

http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/

[UpInSmoke]

Tim is a well respected, active contributing member and vendor here.
 He is a wealth of knowledge and experience.
here is a link to his website...

http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/

Great, thanks.  I do appreciate all of the newb education!  I loved my old powerlines when I was a kid.  We could shoot anything we wanted and more than half the time we were trooping through the woods with our pellet rifles in hand.  Brought home many a ring-tail pigeon and cotton tail rabbit. 

I just noticed how many game animals are named for what we observe as they are leaving.  I could just see the cave men back in the day, "Have you seen one of those animals with the pointy things on their heads?" "Do you mean the ones with the black tails or the white tails? Never from too close..."

[Motorhead]

ALSO .... Ninja paintall is coming out with a 4500# 90ci carbon tank W/ 2950# regulator for @ $225.00 with an option on having a fill manifold, hose and QD fitting also for $299.00

Personally am getting one of these ASAP !!
For the money and when needing a 4-5 top off fill devise ... PRICELESS !!

https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-carbon-fiber-air-tank-fill-station-4500-psi-88-cu-in?a=4708

[UpInSmoke]

ALSO .... Ninja paintall is coming out with a 4500# 90ci carbon tank W/ 2950# regulator for @ $225.00 with an option on having a fill manifold, hose and QD fitting also for $299.00

Personally am getting one of these ASAP !!
For the money and when needing a 4-5 top off fill devise ... PRICELESS !!

That beats buying spare air cylinders to carry when hunting.  That would fit in the bottom of a day pack and you wouldn't know it was there...very cool!

Now what I am trying to do is big, cheap lol. 

The real push behind this whole thing started 10 years ago when some friends were sitting around discussing how nice it was to live where we do.  Washington State, rural...but there is little for the local kids to do, I know, I grew up here.  That little conversation is coming to fruition with this:
http://www.redbarnkp.com/pages/about.html

I have been asked to start a youth air rifle club with the goal being to train then compete in whatever matches we can find for them to participate in.  I trained soldiers to shoot for many years, kids will be all the fun without the hassle, I can't wait.  My 16 year old daughter is going to be my Assistant Coach, she is a natural shooter, so I am having to teach her the basics to be able to teach what she is already doing.

So, long story short, we plan to start with a short range (plenty of acerage) and have the kids work with us to expand, build FT lanes, etc.  We want to give them a chance to invest in something bigger than themselves.  Other than happy, well adjusted youth, we would love to see our kids perhaps even get marksmanship scholarships...scholarship being the only way many of our kids will ever see the inside of a university.

If you bore easily, I apologize now...If I had warned you at the start, you may have skipped it.



Dave

[UpInSmoke]

So I decided to pull the trigger and buy this:

Carleton 4500psi 60min SCBA Bottle Carbon Fiber Cylinder

For $125.00 I got the bottle and a CGA 347 Valve on a 3 year bottle. So, step 1 is covered, now I need to sell my SCUBA tanks and Fill Yoke to fund the SCBA fill yoke.  Getting excited, I'll be a ShoeBox away from perfection for my kit...

Dave

[PakProtector]

So now you need the fill hose. See Tim/Mac1; he sells the complete microbore hose dealie for less than we can assemble the bits for.

tanks ought to be sold based on a cost/year remaining life....but..lol tanks with most of remaining life left can go for $20-25/year...and with only a few left the cost/year goes up 'cause the kick in the door price is lower. Best Bet is to buy a young tank, and keep it 'til it has had its last hydro and sell to recover most of the original cost.
cheers,
Douglas

[Louca]

OK, so can you guys with CF tanks help me with a calculations and the ideal gas law?

If I look on a CF tank it says its fill pressure is 4500 PSI, and it says "REE 144 cc".  What is the "REE 144 cc" referring to?  Certainly not the tank's volume!

As I understand it, to calculate the equivalent Standard Cubic Feet (i.e. the amount of air at standard temperature and pressure, or SCF), ignoring units for now, SCF = (Fill Pressure / Atmospheric Pressure) x Tank Volume.  And as I understand it, the ideal gas law is pretty good up to about 200 bar.  So is there some correction for 4500 PSI tanks that are running a little over 300 bar?

And then, to make things even more fun, the tanks are rated in "minutes" of usage - breathing that is, not shooting!  Many I see are rated with pressure and time, e.g. "4500 PSI, 60 min".

I want a tank that of course will give me "lots" of fills, for at-home shooting and filling a smaller bottle occasionally for me to take out shooting or to a match.  I really don't want to be making weekly or even monthly trips to my local dive shop to get refills.  So, what size tank do I need?  I know, it depends on a few factors like how much I shoot, how many shots per refill I can get, etc.  But I am guessing an 80 cu ft steel tank topped at 3000 PSI is about what I need, but I really would like to go with higher pressure for less trips to refill, hence carbon fiber.  Any help?  Thanks.

Lou

[ScottB]

Louca,
           The REE of 144cc is the volume of how much the tank is allowed to expand during a hydrotest, if it expands any more than that the tank would fail the hydrotest. This video explains alot.

[sperho]

And then, to make things even more fun, the tanks are rated in "minutes" of usage - breathing that is, not shooting!  Many I see are rated with pressure and time, e.g. "4500 PSI, 60 min".

I want a tank that of course will give me "lots" of fills, for at-home shooting and filling a smaller bottle occasionally for me to take out shooting or to a match.  I really don't want to be making weekly or even monthly trips to my local dive shop to get refills.  So, what size tank do I need?  I know, it depends on a few factors like how much I shoot, how many shots per refill I can get, etc.  But I am guessing an 80 cu ft steel tank topped at 3000 PSI is about what I need, but I really would like to go with higher pressure for less trips to refill, hence carbon fiber.  Any help?  Thanks.

Lou

60 min at 4500 psi is 88 cubic feet of atmospheric pressure air compressed into a bottle.  You can use this calculator to find out how many fills that you would get on your gun:  http://www.calc.sikes.us/2/index.php

If you have a 3000 psi gun and you fill to 3000 or near, you'll want a 4500 psi tank.  If you have a 2000 psi gun, a 3000 psi (SCUBA tank) will work.  I use a 97 CF (Great White from airtanksforsale.com) and a 16 CF (90 cubic inch bottle) tank from Ninja, with a 2900 psi on-bottle regulator with my Marauder rifle.  I really like the combination for it's versatility.  It is expensive, though.  I also have a Shoebox Freedom 8 compressor.  PCPs can be a bit of a money pit if you want to have air independence and not use a hand pump.    You can do this cheaper than I did, but I made the decision that I did not want to buy used equipment.  Dozens of cubic feet of 4500 psi air is a lot of stored energy and I prefer to be the first owner of high pressure equipment, unless I know someone personally.  I did not have the patience to wait until I knew someone that I trusted to sell their equipment, so I ponied up and dove in the deep end.

[Louca]

Thanks for the help guys. I have a Daystate Harrier and for the life of me, believe it or not, I do not know what the "normal" operating pressure is. I know I run it at about 2600 to 2800 PSI, but I have no idea what it is supposed to be run at. Anyone know? (Edit: after some research, I found out the cylinder is rated for 2600 PSI, and the rifle is believed to have a sweet spot around 2100 PSI).

Thanks for the video link. I will need to watch it again, but it was informative. Kinda of scary watching the hydro test being run. Not only for the guy standing in front of the tank, but in realizing a failed hydro means your investment in a CF tank is gone. What do you do with it then? Cut it in half ands make a planter out of it? 

Spero, I kind of feel like you do. Sure it is extra money to buy new. But you are a lot more sure of what you are getting than otherwise, especially when purchased from a reputable place. Thanks again guys.

Lou