.25 numbers from Turkish Patriots? (Hatsans, too?) UPDATED

[drewciferpike]

Niko planted a fast-growing seed in my head, today, so I'd like to ask the .25 Turkish Patriot owners:

1. If you've been able to compare your rifle to a UK-built Patriot, was the acc. at the same level?
2. What kind of numbers are you looking at, for either build? If you can compare a Turkish to a UK build, that would be great. (Please be specific i.e. FPS, pellet weight...)

Are the Hatsans even worth contemplating? This gun will be a 100% hunter, so I'd like to find a non-PCP .25 that can sling some serious lead in as tight a group as possible. If you suggest a rifle that is a "must tune it to be happy" model, that's fine (please suggest the appropriate tuner I would need to contact; I don't have the tools to even clean and deburr).

I will consider a UK Patriot, and I still might look for one, which is why I posted; if people that have both versions show wildly different chrony numbers (with the edge going to the UK version), I'll weigh the need for (possibly) tuning a Turkish Patriot up to UK levels. If that costs more than a stock UK, I'll just wait for a UK version to rear its head. If they're pretty much neck-in-neck, then I'll grab a Turkish (or whatever else is suggested) and run with it.

I appreciate Dick's reviews, and would love to see anything else in the chrony/accuracy dept.

Thanks, in advance!

[Dick Tracey]

You can start this off with this review.

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=34213.msg319386#msg319386

Here is links to original Reviews

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=18455.msg160452#msg160452

And

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=18604.msg162191#msg162191

DT

[Nikoman]

Yup, poor Drew came over and saw my UK Patriot (Beeman Kodiak) .25 caliber
He's looking for a .25 cal springer for the field so I told him to look into the Turkish Patriots since some of you guys that have them are getting excellent results with them.

[GunnerAl]

I think I have posted a few times, the difference between my English Patriot .25 and my Turkish Patriot .25. In my case, there is a sh*tload of difference in the performance of the two,, but first and before I get into the how's and why's of their performance, let's take a look at the actual rifles side by side...

You cannot ever compare the two for build quality or looks. The Hatsan/Webley is a fine looking rifle, and from the outside it looks quite well made and looks like a solid mutha indeed. The English Patriot 'IS' well made and looks beautiful, nicely finished, nice lines, nicer bluing. It just has to be said that the English version, quality-wise, 'IS' the far superior one, hands down. However, the Turkish unit is not all bad. It looks similar to its UK parent, but it just isn't in the same realm,, not in a million years of trying to be,, and I can only take an educated guess as to the reliability and quality of build internally of the two. To that I'd say - You don't have to worry one iota with the English one. It is built with a history of fine airgun craftsmanship and it delivers on performance and looks and is bound to hang in there for decades if treated with the respect that any airgun is due...

The Turkish one can be a lottery. It is capable of the same sort of power as the English boy but has on a regular basis, been a tiny bit lower than it. That's not the real issue though. I bought mine from a guy I knew. He had a bad seal shortly after he got it and didn't know what was causing the overly harsh recoil, just about jumping out of his hands and getting worse day by day, nor the loud sounds from the barrel each time it was fired, nor the erratic velocities he was getting, nor the accuarcy which flew out the window over a period of time, and over a couple of hundred shots it had gone from perfectly good at brand new, to an uncontrollable monster not capable of any one thing a good air rifle is supposed to be. Poor seals and prematurely dead springs in standard trim after a short while, haunt Hatsans the world over. He got a new seal and another spring, not the genuine articles but ones that fitted and did the job, only the spring was a little less powerful, but it turns out that this made the rifle so much sweeter to fire. Recoil, or the lack of it, is the only thing that this Turkish made rifle can beat the English made one at, without even trying.

Now to the lead flying through the air...

The English one on average gets about 28 - 29 ft-lbs at the muzzle (chrony'd) using pellets like the JSB Exact King @ 25.4gr. It really seems to love them. I tried a few others in and around the mid 20's grains but they all virtually equated to about the same 28 ft-lbs, give or take. Recoil is a factor in accuracy but I have yet to actually give this rifle a thorough workout, and it is hold sensitive too.

The Turkish one gives about 22 - 23 ft-lbs, probably because of the seal and slightly weaker spring but it will be much, much more reliable than the standard Hatsan setup, that's for sure. It has nowhere near the same recoil and is lovely to load, aim and fire because of its taming down. Less velocity, less thump, but very usable. There's a lot to be said for this type of set up...

Like many Hatsans nowadays, you can make an almost silk purse out of it, but you have to get rid of the sows ear first,, or,, get rid of all the bad points and you'll eventually end up with all good points. Whatever,, you know what I mean...

You can't compare the two, ever. If you want a collectable rifle that looks beautiful and performs from stock standard like many other have to be tuned to get, go for the English boy, only, you'll more than likely have to pay through the nose for it, like I did - $900 local money - worth every cent though. However, the Turkish units are definitely getting better. I just bought another Turkish Patriot, this time in .177 cal and it is a definite improvement visually over the .25 cal older brother. It now has the quattro trigger and looks slightly better finished, so who knows what it's going to be like internally and how it will perform... But that's just the trouble - "Who Knows"..!!

[drewciferpike]

However, the Turkish units are definitely getting better. I just bought another Turkish Patriot, this time in .177 cal and it is a definite improvement visually over the .25 cal older brother. It now has the quattro trigger and looks slightly better finished, so who knows what it's going to be like internally and how it will perform... But that's just the trouble - "Who Knows"..!!

I was told to only go for the newer Turks with the Quattro triggers, for the reasons you mentioned. I'd love to hear how your .177 does, in regards to firing cycle, smoothness, fit and finish of internals, etc.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write all of that. I went into this knowing that a non-UK rifle just isn't going to look as sexy; it's one thing to tell yourself that, and another to accept it  . Niko's UK is redonkulously beautiful.

That's interesting about the newer (weaker) spring and the shot cycle. ...and 22fpe is still respectable, especially if you're not worrying about recoil, as much.

Yeah, with the Hatsans, from what I've read there are some total gems out of the box, and others have had to go in and really clean things up. I guess it's all a balance game.

I just want a hunter to perform in the field, so the collectible side is a non-issue with me. I can definitely appreciate a UK Patriot, but there's no way I can justify that cost, at this point in my life (as much as I'd like to, haha!).

I'll be honest, though: I keep thinking about a PCP, and keep telling myself that I can't succumb.

[GunnerAl]

Nothing wrong with a PCP,, just that you have to think of the rest of the gear you also need - tanks or bottles, gauges and hoses etc. Adds an extra couple of hundred dollars or so to the initial price...

[Bryan Heimann]

disco.....

[BenjiHunter]

I have nothing to compare my Turkish Patriot to, but shoots a 31 grain pellet at about 649 FPS(29.04FPE).
It's a really nicely made gun and accurate. I don't think you will regret getting one.

[drewciferpike]

Yeah... it's not so much the cost, really (well... you know what I mean... I'll just have to save up for a few more months), the thing with me for PCPs is the fact that I need extra "stuff": I spent 9 years in Alaska as a fishing guide, and I'm really into "pick up and go" tools/concepts/whatever. The thought of picking up a rifle, some pellets, and a bottle of water and just hitting the field really feels "right" to me. The performance geek in me sees what redonkulous levels of power and performance I can achieve with a PCP, but I'm kinda'  wary about something that relies on a power source that I might not be able to recharge in the field (if I don't hike around with a pump or tanks or whatever).

So... that's where I'm torn. A .25 mrod is exactly what I want in a field gun, right now (there's no way I can afford an Indy... haha), but a well-made Patriot/Hatsan with no internal problems looks like I'll have the "unplugged" ability that I really like, married to a rifle that is a total thumper (I've seen posts where folks claimed sub-1" groups at 50 yards). I like the work Mike Melick does, but it seems like a XS28 can't throw lead like the Turkish .25s. Am I wrong in thinking this (I know there's a Vortek kit for the 350/28, but is it worth it?

Hopefully I can get my hands on some rifles to test them at the Fresno AG show, as I think that's the only way I'll be able to really make a decision...

[GunnerAl]

Drew,
there's also one thing extra that I didn't mention about the Patriot, either English or Turkish, and that's its weight. They are quite a heavy rifle. You'd be looking at about 9 lb by itself. With a scope,, well I'll leave that to your imagination. There may be alternatives to the Turkish Patriot, like the Hatsan model 125 or 135 (that's if you want to stick to Hatsan - which the Patriot IS), which have most likely the same power levels in real life, but may weigh a tiny bit less. For some reason, the Patriots are a big heavy mumma...

[drewciferpike]

They are quite a heavy rifle.

It's funny you mentioned that! After searching for all of the .25 springers on PA, weight was the first thing I noted, for all of them. I knew that this would be a field rifle, so I didn't want anything starting at 11 pounds, but I also knew that a little extra weight might help with how I handle the firing cycle and accuracy. To be honest, I need to send a few pellets through a .25 to see what I'm getting myself into. Niko offered to let me try his UK Patriot, so that will probably help give me a--very nice--idea of what to expect.

Not counting scopes, mounts, or slings (there is no way I'm going to cradle these beasts all day!), the Patriot is supposedly 0.2 pounds lighter than the 125 or 135 at 9 pounds, so I'll definitely see if all my exercise is good for anything besides controlling cholesterol.

[Nikoman]

You're more than welcome to come over and try the UK Beast. The final weight will depend on the scope and mounts, mine are all going to be the lightest they can be with the stuff I use. You've seen the clarity of these scopes on a couple of them.

[Bryan Heimann]

Hatsan 125 weighs in the lightest.  The thumbhole version is heavier, go for the sporter to save weight.  Probably the best power to weight ratio of all the magnum breakbarrels out there. PA lists it at 8.4 pounds. 

[GunnerAl]

Actually, many of my rifles are in and around the same hefty weight of about 11 lbs (scoped of course) and it can become a bit of a chore to carry around for a long while. I don't like putting slings on airguns, so when/if I go out, I end up carrying the rifle in my hands and with some of the rifles, it becomes distracting with all that weight. I have much lighter rifles that I prefer for longer usage, not as powerful as a Patriot but much more usable, considering all things like calibre, weight, power, recoil...

Yes, if you can try before you buy, that's a huge advantage to you before laying any cash in someone elses hands. I'm pretty sure you wont dislike the .25 when you can compare to a .177 or even a .22 cal but it might also be a good idea to make sure you get it in a rifle that can utilize the large calibre. Patriots ans other Hatsan models can but there also are lots of lighter rifles that come out in .25 but they are a lot less powerful too - fun and usable, just a bit less powerful, maybe up to 10 ft-lbs less. Nothing wrong with that, but if you want a flatter trajectory and punch, you have to go for the extra horsepower, which unfortunately usually means more weight. I personally think that any rifle in that higher .25 velocity bracket will be around the same weight, give or take an ounce or three,, and you'll find this true in the .22 and .177 calibre versions of the same rifles as well. I guess all that extra power has to be catered for in the building of that rifle, regardless of the calibre...

How do I feel about Patriots - I love'em..!!

Good luck in your evaluation and hopefully your ultimate choice...

[drewciferpike]

I guess all that extra power has to be catered for in the building of that rifle, regardless of the calibre...

I appreciate your willingness to share your experiences, everyone, especially you, Gunner: From everything I've read, what you stated is dead-on... A tuned XS28 from Mike (he gave me some ballpark 25gr chrony #s) will usually get around 23-27 fpe. No way do I consider that small beans, but the trajectory and punch you mentioned are what I hope to maintain.

I received a call from an organizer of the Fresno show, and I had no idea it was going to be this big. I guess anyone can try out their own rifles on the range, and also try guns they purchase on-site. There might even be sample guns from some vendors. If that's the case, I really hope I can try a Hatsan or a Turkish Patriot.

[GunnerAl]

Drew,
The first really "powerful" air rifle I bought was about 5 years ago. It was a Webley Dominator in .177 (same thing as the Hatsan 155 Torpedo and based on the same powerplant as many of the more powerful Hatsans rated at 1250fps). I only bought it because I tried a friends one and was quite impressed by its, well to be honest, its awesome EVERYTHING. It kind of overwhelmed me at the time. I had never fired such a monster before this. The velocity was huge for an air rifle, so was the recoil and the cocking effort required and the weight - 11lbs with the scope - gulp..!! Now this was a man's rifle (if I could use that term). I loved it, but, it was as rough as guts. Nothing smooth about it - all power and no finesse at all,, so much so that mine has sat in the closet for that past 4 or 5 years and I may never ever touch it again. After I stopped and shook/cleared my head, I never really had any more thoughts of ever buying another rifle in this power range. At the end of the day, once I used any of the other less powerful rifles, I found I could actually load, aim and fire relatively easily again, and not be overwhelmed and actually enjoy the exeperience again. I bought a few more rifles after that but they were all around the 1000fps mark and all very nice to use. I was back on track once again. Then one day a friend offered me his resprung/resealed Turkish Patriot .25, just at the same time as I was looking at an English one, completely out of the blue. Funnily enough, I wound up buying both because I couldn't pass on either deal although the English one cost me 3 times the price of the Turk because they are quite rare to find now. It was a sight for sore eyes though. In a word - BEAUTIFUL..!! It had the power to match its looks too - approx 28+ ft-lbs. The Turk model was quite a bit less powerful but owing to the new weaker spring, it was such a sweet rifle to fire. Of the two, the English rifle is definitely the one to have but the Turk is also a great rifle, being so sweet to fire, it's so easy to load too. Both are heavy though and I am not afraid to opt for those same "other" rifles if I want to wander. Actually, I have quite a few of these more powerful models and they all seems to be about the same weight, give or take. I think sometimes I just get carried away buying new models, hoping to get that miracle all-rounder, you know - powerful, not too heavy, accrurate, not fussy on pellets, easy to cock etc etc. It just isn't going to happen. Extra power and weight seem to go hand in hand...

You can still enjoy a large powerful rifle though, especially when you know the one you have will do the job asked of it. You just have to realize what you have in your hands. In my opinion, the powerful .25 in spring type air rifles, is unlike the .177 and .22 even of similar power, in that it makes it presence felt visually by the large pellets and big bore size,, its weight as discussed, and especially the damage it does at the other end. The pellets just hold a lot of energy and even though I have lost most of my urge to kill creatures all the time, I have seen just how it knocks birds, rodents and even a few small animals down, cold dead on the spot. Sometimes it may not leave much of a wound but that energy is never wasted. I will never run the .25 calibre down because it has potential, even in less powerful models but it pays dividends to have that extra power and the ability to really use those heavy pellets...

[drewciferpike]

I think sometimes I just get carried away buying new models, hoping to get that miracle all-rounder, you know - powerful, not too heavy, accrurate, not fussy on pellets, easy to cock etc etc. It just isn't going to happen. Extra power and weight seem to go hand in hand...

You can still enjoy a large powerful rifle though, especially when you know the one you have will do the job asked of it.

Haha... yeah. I feel that everything has to be balanced, as far as expectations go (and not even just with air guns). I've always gone for accuracy--and even accepted the need to find The One True Pellet--but I'm usually not too concerned with power, assuming proper shot placement and knowing the limits of my equipment will see me through. I expect that with a gun accurately tossing big pellets at range, it's going to be heavy. I went into this search knowing that I was going for power and accuracy, and was ready to accept pellet pickiness, a total-arm workout, and high weight.

This rifle will definitely fill a very small role, so I'm willing to accept the need to learn how to properly handle its power and shot cycle. It definitely won't be a backyard plinker... haha.

I can't wait to start trying some rifles!

[Bryan Heimann]

Drew,
The first really "powerful" air rifle I bought was about 5 years ago. It was a Webley Dominator in .177 (same thing as the Hatsan 155 Torpedo and based on the same powerplant as many of the more powerful Hatsans rated at 1250fps). I only bought it because I tried a friends one and was quite impressed by its, well to be honest, its awesome EVERYTHING. It kind of overwhelmed me at the time. I had never fired such a monster before this. The velocity was huge for an air rifle, so was the recoil and the cocking effort required and the weight - 11lbs with the scope - gulp..!! Now this was a man's rifle (if I could use that term). I loved it, but, it was as rough as guts. Nothing smooth about it - all power and no finesse at all,, so much so that mine has sat in the closet for that past 4 or 5 years and I may never ever touch it again. After I stopped and shook/cleared my head, I never really had any more thoughts of ever buying another rifle in this power range. At the end of the day, once I used any of the other less powerful rifles, I found I could actually load, aim and fire relatively easily again, and not be overwhelmed and actually enjoy the exeperience again. I bought a few more rifles after that but they were all around the 1000fps mark and all very nice to use. I was back on track once again. Then one day a friend offered me his resprung/resealed Turkish Patriot .25, just at the same time as I was looking at an English one, completely out of the blue. Funnily enough, I wound up buying both because I couldn't pass on either deal although the English one cost me 3 times the price of the Turk because they are quite rare to find now. It was a sight for sore eyes though. In a word - BEAUTIFUL..!! It had the power to match its looks too - approx 28+ ft-lbs. The Turk model was quite a bit less powerful but owing to the new weaker spring, it was such a sweet rifle to fire. Of the two, the English rifle is definitely the one to have but the Turk is also a great rifle, being so sweet to fire, it's so easy to load too. Both are heavy though and I am not afraid to opt for those same "other" rifles if I want to wander. Actually, I have quite a few of these more powerful models and they all seems to be about the same weight, give or take. I think sometimes I just get carried away buying new models, hoping to get that miracle all-rounder, you know - powerful, not too heavy, accrurate, not fussy on pellets, easy to cock etc etc. It just isn't going to happen. Extra power and weight seem to go hand in hand...

You can still enjoy a large powerful rifle though, especially when you know the one you have will do the job asked of it. You just have to realize what you have in your hands. In my opinion, the powerful .25 in spring type air rifles, is unlike the .177 and .22 even of similar power, in that it makes it presence felt visually by the large pellets and big bore size,, its weight as discussed, and especially the damage it does at the other end. The pellets just hold a lot of energy and even though I have lost most of my urge to kill creatures all the time, I have seen just how it knocks birds, rodents and even a few small animals down, cold dead on the spot. Sometimes it may not leave much of a wound but that energy is never wasted. I will never run the .25 calibre down because it has potential, even in less powerful models but it pays dividends to have that extra power and the ability to really use those heavy pellets...

I like the .25's too.  Especially with the Hatsan magnums, where .22 and .25 are about neck and neck with muzzle energy, the .25 ammo still carries a lot more momentum and lays the smack down hard.  I used to knock empty water bottles over my backstop and occasionally over the fence with the .25 WTM I recently got back.  It rips the full ones wide open.  It is also a lot of fun to shoot hard plastic toys at long range with them, i like the loud audible crack that a heavy Barracuda makes when it hits hard plastic from a good distance!