Open sights for springers sold without open sights?

[jungleexplorer]

Well, deer season is over here in Texas so it is time to reduce the squirrel population again.  My youngest son is going this year so I need another gun.  I have been looking at this new crop of springers and there are lots to choose from.  But I have noticed an alarming trend.  Springers that come with a scope only and no open sights.  Every gun that I have found that has the specs I want comes this way.  Who is the one that came up with this dumb idea!  Any true rifle shooter knows that you never mount a scope to a gun with a movable barrel.

I could rant on and on about the stupidity of making a springer without open sights, but let me get straight to my point.  This gun is for my son and I am not going to spend a whole lot on it.  At the same time I want to get something good.  The best balance I have found is the Benjamin Titan GP Nitro .22.  I am a little upset that Benjamin merged with Crosman, but oh well! Anyway, I read a review that said that this gun comes grooved for open sights.  Only problem is that I have looked for hours trying to find info for open sight that will go on it and have come up empty.  So, here I am asking you guys for help.  Here are my questions.

1.  Is it possible to add open sights to the Benjamin Titan GP Nitro .22?
2.  If possible, Where can I get the sights?  I want good sights, not those garbage plastic ones like come on Crosman Quest.

Thanks

[OleTomCat]

Well first thing is that you can not hunt squirrels in Texas with an Air Rifle, there was a whole big discussion not to long ago on that note......

Second lots of break barrel air rifles users use scopes, I do...

[Tinknocker1]

i use a scope on all my break barrel guns 

and if you would have more of a issue with open sights if that was the case because the front sight moves every time you cock the gun not that open sight shooters have any issues either ...

[jungleexplorer]

Well first thing is that you can not hunt squirrels in Texas with an Air Rifle, there was a whole big discussion not to long ago on that note......

Second lots of break barrel air rifles users use scopes, I do...

Well, what do you know, you are right!  You can't hunt squirrels in Texas with an air rifles.  I wonder when that changed?  I guess Texas is going down the liberal idiot trail just like Colorado. Anyone who cannot take a squirrel with a springer should not be hunting anyway.  This really irritates me!  Why is it that laws always have to punish good people by robbing them of their constitutional liberties to stop bad people from acting like irresponsible idiots.  ARRRGGGG!!!  I am beginning to hate Texas.

If you are happy with a scope on a break barrel, good for you.  You just will never get a consistent pattern.  It just breaks a cardinal rule of rifle shooting.  For maximum accuracy, you always attach a scope to a gun with an unmovable barrel, or to the barrel itself.  I have a 22 year old RWS 36.  On a good day, with no wind, I can stack pellets on top of each other at 60 feet.  I have shot hundreds of pears and other fruit out of tall trees by shooting the stems off.  I once got a brand new pair of Nike's off a power line by shooting the shoestring in half with one shot.  I have many friends that have break barrels with scopes on them and they are always complaining about how inaccurate they are.  I once tried putting one on my 36 and could not get better then a 1.5 inch pattern at 60 feet, and that was a good day.  You are just never going to get the precision out of a break barrel with a scope, that you will get with a good set of open sights.  I am not saying you can't use it, just that it is not going to be as precision. 

[thekid]

For off hand shooting...nothing beats open sights.
So much easier to stay steady and accurate.
This where a small 4x or bugbuster scope comes in handy with an offset mount. Keep it low to the rifle, it will be like open sites.
Quick to shoulder and accurate.

[jungleexplorer]

because the front sight moves every time you cock the gun

Okay, you need to get some GOOD open sights.  Yes, you may have this problem with these cheap garbage sights made of plastic that comes on budget Crosman's.  But here is the deal.  Scopes break very easy!  Even a mild bump can knock them out of sight.  So even if you like using a scope, you still need a good set of open sights as a back up if you run into problems out in the field.  I am not against scopes.  I have scopes on several powder rifles.  My beef is with air gun manufacturers selling springers without open sights.  I think scopes should be an option, not a mandate.  My problem is that 7 out of 10 springers sold these days do not have open sights. What irritates me more is that every single springer I looked at in my budget range that has the specs I want does not come with open sights.

[ezman604]

I guess that says a lot for the engineering of modern day break barrel airguns. I have several and all are glassed. VERY solid and accurate shooters. That same statement would hold true for irons too, not just scoped movable barrel guns. In theory, the barrel would never return to the EXACT same position, so the irons would be inaccurate also. So if the statement were true, you should NEVER be able to hit consistantly with a break barrel. And we know that's not true.

SAFE & Happy Shooting!!!!
Dave
 

[jungleexplorer]

I guess that says a lot for the engineering of modern day break barrel airguns. I have several and all are glassed. VERY solid and accurate shooters. That same statement would hold true for irons too, not just scoped movable barrel guns. In theory, the barrel would never return to the EXACT same position, so the irons would be inaccurate also. So if the statement were true, you should NEVER be able to hit consistantly with a break barrel. And we know that's not true.

What are you talking about?  How can sights that are attached to the barrel move?  You would only be right if the rear sight was attached to the piston cylinder and not the barrel.  I would never buy a gun like that.  If both rear and front sights are attached to the barrel (and are good quality) there is no possible way the sights can move during the cocking procedure.

[jungleexplorer]

Listen, this thread is getting off track.  I did not come here to argue with a bunch of people that feel they have to defend their use of scopes to the death.  I use scopes too.  I just don't like them as the "ONLY" option on my springer. Okay!  Stop being so sensitive.  You win!  Scopes are great! Scopes are AWESOME!  They are the best thing since sliced bread!

I am looking for answers, not arguments. Go back to the OP and read the two questions.  If you have an answer to them, please post it.   

[ezman604]

Never mind me, must be still asleep.

I don't use irons due to my need for progressive lens. Carry on with your inquiry.

[Bullit]

Visit your local Gunsmith.  Get what you want and have him mount them, where you want them.   At risk of getting my neck chewed off, there are decent guns with open sites, that are at least the same specs, as the China guns you mentioned. If you wanna stay with Chinese and low cost, an example of some to look at are the X20, Airhawk, QBs, etc.  There are many in that class of same quality, with Iron sites.
PS: EZ is a good guy to have on your side for help.... There's a lot of good folks here.

[thekid]

Which guns were you looking at with the specs you have in mind...

[gamo2hammerli]

Yes, I also don't like the new air rifles/real rifles without the iron sights.....but it's supposed to make the rifle(s) look more sleek.

That said, there are still some air rifles (Break barrels) that come with scopes and have iron sights:

Crosman Phantom, Optimus, Quest and Vantage NP

Beeman RS2

Ruger Air Hawk

Gamo Whisper

RWS Diana 34, 350 Magnum (This one might be too strong and heavy)

Some might be out of production but still out there.  This is just a casual list off Pyramid Air Guns.  Hope it helps.

[fortyshooter]

No problems here with my Sniper 125 and EOTech sight! Haven't had to adjust it yet.

I thought Texas was wide open on shooting things. Lot's of squirrels get taken out in our city boundaries with air rifles,as long as it is on your property!

[jungleexplorer]

As far as specs go.  I wanted try out the Nitro Piston.  The one thing about my RWS 36 that has always bugged me is that it is an off hand gun only.  Because of the recoil, you cannot stabilize it against anything.  The harder you try to hold it still, the worse the accuracy gets. You have to let it have some give if you want to be really accurate with it. I have noticed this effect with other springers I have used as well.  That said, once you learn how to hold it right, you can drive a nail with it.  I don't know much about these gas piston guns, other then what they claim.  They are supposed to be quieter, easier to cock and have less recoil.

Another spec I am looking for is an adjustable trigger.  I bought a Quest from my oldest son about 7 years ago and well, you know about that trigger.

I have always used 1.77 guns, but they require more precision shooting to kill.  That is okay for me because I grew being trained by military championship shooters.  But I would like to try something in .22 cal for more knock down power down range.  Most of the advertised velocities these days are for alloy pellets, but the Benjamin Titan GP Nitro .22 also has a rating for standard lead pellets.  It claims 850 fps for standard lead pellets.  I am sure this is only after a good break in, but even 800 fps would be a lot more kill power then my .177 RWS 36.

In a nutshell my specs are these;

1. Adjustable trigger
2. Gas Piston (Nitro)
3. .22 cal
4. Above 800 fps with standard lead pellet.
5. No scope (I like to choose my scopes and I hate paying more for a gun with a scope only to take it off)
6. Open Sights
7. Under $150

Remember, this if for my son.  The gun I am saving up for myself is the Diana RWS 460 Magnum.  Now there is a real gun!

[thekid]

The 150 dollar part is the killer.
That 36 you have will take just about anything up to and including coons at 20-25 yards.

[Bullit]

Your heavy power specs are (to me) unrealistic for a young shooter to enjoy and spend the time to master. It takes time.
You may want to read up on the ballistics of the .177 vs .22 because ALL airguns use the same powerplant for both calibers.  The ACTUAL FPE will be very similar in both.  At 25yds or better 177 heavy pellet goes deeper.  Just like same powder charged .22 v .38

Cocking effort,LOP, and Accuracy, would be my first concerns, over advertised power.  A good shooting 12fpe is a 35yard rabbit & squirrel killer!   Our EU friends been doing it for years at 50yds.
A good spring will cock easier for him(progressive), and unless you spend big bucks on any "NP" you don't know what it's power is for sure.   They are mass produced and not consistent.   And when they leak, that's it...  A spring is cheap and easy to fix.

The "Artillery Hold" is the common amoungst airgunners.

[Kailua]

For an air rifle with a gas spring with an adjustable trigger.  You may want to work backwards in your research.  Since everyone swears by a Charliedatuna trigger upgrade for smoothness and adjustability in a trigger.  His website shows all the air rifles it can be used on.  May find a gas spring air rifle with open sights.  Not sure of the quality of the open sights that will come with the air rifle in your price range.  LOL

Just had a fast look at Pyramid Air website.  Looks like all the gas spring air rifles that have open sights either will take a CDT trigger and or the Hatsan gas spring rifles have a Quatro adjustable trigger.

[jungleexplorer]

Your heavy power specs are (to me) unrealistic for a young shooter to enjoy and spend the time to master. It takes time.
You may want to read up on the ballistics of the .177 vs .22 because ALL airguns use the same powerplant for both calibers.  The ACTUAL FPE will be very similar in both.  At 25yds or better 177 heavy pellet goes deeper.  Just like same powder charged .22 v .38

Cocking effort,LOP, and Accuracy, would be my first concerns, over advertised power.  A good shooting 12fpe is a 35yard rabbit & squirrel killer!   Our EU friends been doing it for years at 50yds.
A good spring will cock easier for him(progressive), and unless you spend big bucks on any "NP" you don't know what it's power is for sure.   They are mass produced and not consistent.   And when they leak, that's it...  A spring is cheap and easy to fix.

The "Artillery Hold" is the common amoungst airgunners.

I hold on to guns for a while you know, like my RWS 36 which I have had for 22 years.  I want to buy something for my son to grow into.  You do make a good point about FPE.  I guess it boils down to pellet weight then. Thanks for the insight of the mass produced NPs, as I said before, I don't a lot about them or how they work. 

What you said about them leaking has me concerned.   I have owned my rws 36 for 22 years and never had a single malfunction of any kind with it. There is no way to calculate how many pellets I have fired through it, but 10,000 seem like very small number.  Like wise I bought the Quest 1000X about 7 years (for my older son who is now 21yrs) ago and have have put thousands of pellets through it and killed countless squirrels, rabbits and turtles with it, and the only malfunction problem I have had with it is the cheap plastic sights (which I super glued into place at 20 yards). If these gas piston guns are not long term reliable guns, you can take that off my list of specs. 

[jungleexplorer]

For an air rifle with a gas spring with an adjustable trigger.  You may want to work backwards in your research.  Since everyone swears by a Charliedatuna trigger upgrade for smoothness and adjustability in a trigger.  His website shows all the air rifles it can be used on.  May find a gas spring air rifle with open sights.  Not sure of the quality of the open sights that will come with the air rifle in your price range.  LOL

Just had a fast look at Pyramid Air website.  Looks like all the gas spring air rifles that have open sights either will take a CDT trigger and or the Hatsan gas spring rifles have a Quatro adjustable trigger.

Thanks for the great info.  I will look into it.