Author Topic: Safe or Silly.... (Read 8317 times))

rsterne · « **on:** September 02, 2012, 03:08:26 PM »

Here is a photo (from the Green Forum) of a gauge fitting soldered to the side of a Benji 39X pumper tube with soft solder....

I think this is a ridiculously dangerous practice.... If the joint is perfect, maybe.... but IMO too many variables....

Bob

Rescue912 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 02, 2012, 03:51:26 PM »

Whoa, that is an accident waiting to happen. If done perfectly by a professional with silver solder it would be just scary. That looks like a hack job done with a Bic lighter and coat hanger.

An o-ringed valve body similar to a Discovery would work if there were clearance but any kind of blemish on the tube and then heat treatment / annealing is not a great idea.

Scotchmo · « **Reply #2 on:** September 02, 2012, 04:05:02 PM »

I would be OK with it as long as the air hole was tiny. Even if the solder let go the air would leak out slowly. So no catastrophic event in case of failure.

Norm_m · « **Reply #3 on:** September 02, 2012, 04:29:40 PM »

VERY VERY Dangerous and one other thing to consider is drilling a hole in the tube and heating that area to solder the nut in place can and will cause the barrel to be pulled to that side. Now you end up with a barrel that could explode at and time and one made to shoot around corners

Norm

pyroboy33 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 02, 2012, 04:33:17 PM »

I.E.D. waiting to happen

.

rsterne · « **Reply #5 on:** September 02, 2012, 05:42:26 PM »

Quote

as long as the air hole was tiny. Even if the solder let go the air would leak out slowly. So no catastrophic event in case of failure.

That's assuming there isn't enough volume of air at 1500 (or whatever) psi between the (small hole in the) tube and the gauge to launch the gauge into your (insert body part here).... It's not the escaping air that is the problem, it's how quickly the gauge/fitting assembly comes flying off the gun with a force of 165 lbs (or more) behind it....

Bob

Scotchmo · « **Reply #6 on:** September 02, 2012, 07:12:57 PM »

Quote from: rsterne on September 02, 2012, 05:42:26 PM

Quote
as long as the air hole was tiny. Even if the solder let go the air would leak out slowly. So no catastrophic event in case of failure.
That's assuming there isn't enough volume of air at 1500 (or whatever) psi between the (small hole in the) tube and the gauge to launch the gauge into your (insert body part here).... It's not the escaping air that is the problem, it's how quickly the gauge/fitting assembly comes flying off the gun with a force of 165 lbs (or more) behind it....

Bob

That could be a problem. But probably only about .01 or .02 cubic inches of volume. Maybe a 1fpe explosion. It could cause a bruise.

I still feel the same. If the hole was tiny, no big deal.

rsterne · « **Reply #7 on:** September 02, 2012, 10:26:44 PM »

I hadn't thought of it that way, but I guess you're right.... If the volume is only 0.01 CI, and at 1500 psi the maximum energy from isothermal expansion is only about 5.8 FPE/CI = 0.06 FPE.... A 1 oz. gauge would only reach 8 fps....

So as shown, it's very dangerous.... With a 0.010" hole in an otherwise continuous tube wall it's not an issue.... Live and learn....

Bob

Gippeto · « **Reply #8 on:** September 05, 2012, 06:24:14 PM »

How many forums did you feel it necessary to start this thread on Bob...that's four I've counted thus far. Curious as to why you started it on other forums at all if I'm being honest.

Poor guy has been trashed everywhere you started the thread...IMNSHO, you're responsible for it...and you owe him more than an admission...you owe the man an apology, and just as publicly as he was trashed.

This is called having integrity where I come from.

Used to think you were a good guy Bob...now I'm having doubts.

Al

Motorhead · « **Reply #9 on:** September 05, 2012, 09:30:52 PM »

Quote from: Gippeto on September 05, 2012, 06:24:14 PM

How many forums did you feel it necessary to start this thread on Bob...that's four I've counted thus far. Curious as to why you started it on other forums at all if I'm being honest.

Poor guy has been trashed everywhere you started the thread...IMNSHO, you're responsible for it...and you owe him more than an admission...you owe the man an apology, and just as publicly as he was trashed.

This is called having integrity where I come from.

Used to think you were a good guy Bob...now I'm having doubts.

Al

Interesting bit of drama .... Huh ?

rsterne · « **Reply #10 on:** September 06, 2012, 02:41:54 AM »

Well, Al, I thought it was a safety issue, and I thought at the time it was important to discuss it on the four Forums I visit.... As you are aware, I usually post the same threads on all four.... I'm glad I did, because it was pointed out to me that with a pinhole feeding the relatively small volume under the gauge it wasn't.... If I hadn't brought this to the attention of other (more knowledgeable) people, I would have gone on believing it to be a poor practice.... The guy didn't help much by posting photos of versions that he didn't use.... Walter finally made a suggestion that DID make a lot of sense, and I have endorsed it, as I'm sure you have seen....

You're right, his final version appears to be safe, and I'll make that clear on all the forums....

Bob

rsterne · « **Reply #11 on:** September 06, 2012, 03:05:21 AM »

An Apology to Casey on the Green Forum....

I felt very strongly that the soft soldering of a gauge fitting on the outside of a Benji tube was unsafe.... Rather than simply discussing it on the Green Forum, however, I started threads about it on four other airgun forums entitled "Safe or Silly", and while it was not my intention to ridicule Casey, but to question the method, the result was I generated criticism of him, as well as better information and other ways of viewing the safety of the installation.... Once I learned that Casey restricted the flow with a pinhole, it was pointed out to me that the captured volume was small enough to not be dangerous, and I have agreed with that on this and the other Forums.... However, I had no right to take this further than the Green Forum, regardless of what my intentions were, and for that I apologize....

Bob

Gippeto · « **Reply #12 on:** September 06, 2012, 10:30:32 AM »

Bob,

Sometimes the actions we carry out have a negative impact upon others...it's at these times that we find out which values we TRULY have...what kind of man we ARE...not merely THINK we are.

Despite having to be prodded and attempting to justify yourself, you stepped up Bob...in today's world of "I'm not responsible for what I do because...." I find that this quality is becoming increasingly rare...I still maintain a high value for that quality in people. In particular of the people I choose to associate with in some way.

I won't thank you for doing what was right...but I will state that I appreciate you doing so.

Al

bradyman1 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 06, 2012, 10:58:57 AM »

Without the knowledge of the other forum posters the end result would not have came to light. I see no problem with the way you handled the situation. You never named him you simply stated why you thought it was a bad idea and asked for insight from other points of view. In my opinion you are a very respectable man. I apprecite all you bring to this forum. And for that I thank you sir.

rsterne · « **Reply #14 on:** September 06, 2012, 12:31:16 PM »

Al, you were right to take me to task, and I'm embarassed that it was necessary.... I should have kept the discussion on the Green, although I would likely not have had the benefit of other points of view, educating me about how a pinhole (which I found out later was used) would reduce the risk.... The ultimate result, of Walter's suggestion of using a pipe cap profiled to the tube, soldered on, and then a small hole drilled through both, is so simple and effective, I should have thought of it (but didn't).... Once again, I probably wouldn't have learned that, had I not taken this to the other Forums.... Walter's solution is SO effective, you could glue the pipe cap onto the side of the tube with JB Weld (3500 psi) and not have to worry, providing the connecting hole is small enough.... The REALLY embarassing thing is that Casey used the profiled pipe plug and small hole in his final version.... So I learned two important lessons by this fiasco....

1. I still have a lot to learn....
2. I need to learn to keep my mouth shut....

These can be summed up as "listen more, talk less".... Thanks again, Al.... and I'm sorry it was necessary....

Bob

QVTom · « **Reply #15 on:** September 06, 2012, 01:11:17 PM »

Bob, a picture of what not to do can be a thousand times more informative than one of the job done correctly. There is a lot urging of folks to do their own work on these forums by well intentioned members not realizing that everyone has different skill sets, experiences and aptitudes.

Posting on this forum was constructive, invaluable and well intentioned IMO. Many of us do not spend a lot of time on the other forums and would not have seen the post at all.

And shame on those who would flame the guy instead of offering constructive assistance.

Tom

SeanMP · « **Reply #16 on:** September 06, 2012, 04:56:53 PM »

Well Bob

I'm going to chime in with Tom here. I think you were correct in bringing forward your objections to the practice. If someone read that post and tried that on an HPA tube for example. And for discussion the joint wasn't perfect leaving an area under the fitting that wasn't fused you could be looking at a force of 600lbs being exerted against solder....regardless of the size of hole. Add that to embrittlement possibilities or altering the heat treatment of the parent metal and it is feasible that a catastrophic failure could occur.

In short advising people not to heat pressure vessels is prudent advice unless you have specific knowledge of what your doing.

And yes shame on the people who are all to eager to flame someone with nothing constructive to offer

Rescue35 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 07, 2012, 09:43:57 AM »

I never would have seen this (still haven't seen the other threads) had it not been posted here. I do not visit the other forums much.

I learned something. I see nothing wrong with seeking other opinions when I have questions about something. I really don't care if someone got there feelings hurt on the internet. I'm always tinkering with something and have no issue if someone wants to question or warn me of any issues, especially safety implications they see arising.

QVTom · « **Reply #18 on:** September 07, 2012, 11:45:43 AM »

Quote from: Rescue35 on September 07, 2012, 09:43:57 AM

I never would have seen this (still haven't seen the other threads) had it not been posted here. I do not visit the other forums much.

I learned something. I see nothing wrong with seeking other opinions when I have questions about something. I really don't care if someone got there feelings hurt on the internet. I'm always tinkering with something and have no issue if someone wants to question or warn me of any issues, especially safety implications they see arising.

Yes, when you post on the internet you are exposing your underbelly and should understand what can happen. I haven't seen the other posts either but the word is there was an unnecessary lack of civility and not on Bob's part. Although he could have picked a better adjective than "ridiculously". LOL.

Marno · « **Reply #19 on:** March 22, 2013, 05:37:20 AM »

solder and high pressure is a big NO

Cheers marno

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Safe or Silly....

Author Topic: Safe or Silly.... (Read 8317 times))