JOAO's American Arms Gas Ram Conversion Has Been Tested in a 125 Sniper !

[Mike 4888blues]

All of the Nitrogen Gas Springs are adjustable in pressure . . . Get a high-pressure gas ram and "bleed off" pressure until it is lowered to the desired level.

If you go too low, you have to send it back to the manufacturer to have it re-pressurized, unless you have the necessary equipment to handle Nitrogen and pump it up over 2600 psi ( 180 bar )

Dave

Whitefang makes an EXCELLENT point. SAFETY is concern #1 on GTA. DO NOT tamper with a nitrogen piston unless you have the specific equipment and the training to service them. DO NOT attempt to open, purge or adjust the contents of a nitrogen filled device!!!! PERIOD!!!!
Order the pressure you want and leave it at that. If you need a different pressure, order it filled to your specs.

I spoke to the main teck at moller,personally and they sell the degassing tool, it screws in has a built in stem to press against the needle valve,the moller ram has a typical shrader type air valve.
 I asked him if they place the rams under water and slowly let the gas out so they can see tiny bubbles, he said yes that's exactly what they do.

 I asked him also about the plug size, and thread pitch, so that they can be plugged  off  so dibree can not enter the valve, and  the valve cant leak.
 he gave me that info as well The thread is a M6 X 1.
 
 I asked the teck how  good are the needle valves on the moller rams, he said it is best to make your adjustment slowly and under water to watch  for your bubble size, then seal them off, and leave them alone.

 If any one decides to go with that particular ram, order it to your liking,then Teflon your hex nut recessed plug, install, and leave it alone.




 

[Mike 4888blues]

Yes I am back on the soap box!! I just thought about one more thing:
Being in a dangerous line of work, BEING A SAFETY and QC MANAGER, I am responsible for the life's of many people. My goal is to send everone home as they came to work. General industry and construction standards have different OSHA GUIDELINES. OSHA REGULATIONS AND STANDARDS ARE DIFFERENT FOR BOTH. OSHA regulations are witten in BLOOD. Someone has either been injured or killed resulting in a new safety guideline. All manufactures have warnings to not exceed manufactures recognitions. Again: SAFETY, LIABILITY AND THE LIFE OF THE PRODUCT. Anytime you exceed the warning you are assuming all of this at your own RISK. So as it is the things we do and share are great but it is not a given that the result will be the same for the next.
Joa has GENE testing or blessing his conversion for more reasons than meets the eye. As I look at 3 guns sitting on my patio loaded the last thing I want is for one to go off even with the SAFETY ON. As I have mentioned in many post; STORED ENERGY OF ANY TYPE IS NOT TO BE TAKEN FOR GRANIT!!!Safety should never sleep because danger lurks at all times NEVER SLEEPING and is around ever corner just wainting on the prime time to strike.
Sorry to bore you and the rant!!!
 Please just think a little about what I have shared with all of you on the SAFETY topic and lets all use good judgement in our actions with these MODS and the air guns. These are not RED RIDERS and you can shoot your eye out.

I have worked for over 35 yrs in the commercial , industrial world of plumbing and heating, Big , new facilities ,from the ground up,  concrete stressed floor being craned into position like domino's, block walls going up, pipes going in all on schedule, big boiler sections being winched into position, etc.. I never seen or met a top notch worker or A-1 mechanic get hurt, because those types are safety conscious people, and are keen of there work environment, as well as on the ball.

I have seen guys in the field who were just there to put in there eight hrs,  get hurt from time to time, needlessly, because they were not watching where they were going , took two ladder step instead of one, stupid things  like that.
Bottom line is you either know what your doing or you dont, no one is redesigning anything here. The power plant is being changed from one source to another, and with in the power limits of the original spring getting 950 fps with a springer is pretty darn good in a .22, if you wound up with 980. your still good.
I dont care if you have a spring loaded suction cup dart gun, you need to be safety conscious.

[Mike 4888blues]

Crosman rams are not adjustable to my knowledge. The XL ram, If I received the correct ram is 1/4 shorter on the barrel and the shortness on the shaft. You need to remember I bought one of the WFH from PA a year a go with the nitro installed and after all the hype of the fire blazing withthe HATSAN have dis assembled the the gun and stripped it of the conversion. The WFH ram is not the XL. So I have 1 version of the conversion in my hands. It is proved that one can make the XL work and work safe. I can at will test the difference of the 2 rams in load carrying.
In the WFH, the gun was consistant and a gun I could grab and shoot with no issues at all. Yes the RE-BRANDED USA HATSAN, THE WALTHER!!!! EVEN AFTER A BARREL MISHAP AND A CHOP JOB THE GUN WAS STILL A KEEPER. SO THE CONVERSION HYPE HITS. i PULL THE GUN A PART AND STRIP THE RAM AND PUT THE SPRING BACK IN. Now the gun puts out more FPS but is a hand full. GUN IS ON BUT NOT A TAME GUN. So the ram helps remove the torquing,twisting and recoil with loss of FPS. As we all know speed is not always good FOR ACCURATENCY.
I am glad THAT GENE has stepped in on the conversion. As a MODERATER OF THE FORUM AND A MODDER IN THE HOBBY: He can be of help in this conversion with the main thing we need to remember SAFETY. Yes it is a given he is not going to want a maximum limitation exceeded on any mod. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
Maxing out anything is pushing THE safety concern and the life of what ever you are testing. Example: In my SUPERCHARGED trk I could turn more RPM'S get more HP at the rear wheels THUS MAKING THE TRK MUCH MORE QUICKER. But it is not safe for all the componets in the drivetrain.
Yes this is the same on the guns. 25 fps more in comparison to 1000 RPMS AND 25 more HP. But how long will it last. My tuner will not give me the extra 1000 RPMS for the same reason GENE WILL NOT. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
 So there are two sides of SAFETY. Safety for your health and being and safety for the product lasting. Well so much for the SOAP BOX start of the day

 I dont know what rams your talking about that would exceed the limitations,
What members  have done so far was to see what the cocking effort , and fps with different calibers, while using the correct stroke gas ram for there  testing, namely a 100,and a 125.
 the enforcer has been eliminated, because  of it not being the easiest  to cock.

 The  Xl  has been  tested with good to moderate results,, the moller red, with good to moderate result of 900 fps in a .22
 Now the  moller yellow is next, I dont see anything  going over and beyond the limitations,  no different if you used premium gasoline, with a better carburetor with the best spark plug wires.

Lets  bring it back to what it is, your not re boring the engine, your tuning it up''big difference.
 and all with in its own design and limitation. In a .22 caliber we know the sweet spot is around 950 fps, we know that anything over 1,000 creates instability in the pellets flight.  The results then we would want to see would be from 900 fps to 980 fps in a .22, anything way beyond that is defeating the purpose and I would regard as ridicules,

[Paul68]

Crosman rams are not adjustable to my knowledge. The XL ram, If I received the correct ram is 1/4 shorter on the barrel and the shortness on the shaft. You need to remember I bought one of the WFH from PA a year a go with the nitro installed and after all the hype of the fire blazing withthe HATSAN have dis assembled the the gun and stripped it of the conversion. The WFH ram is not the XL. So I have 1 version of the conversion in my hands. It is proved that one can make the XL work and work safe. I can at will test the difference of the 2 rams in load carrying.
In the WFH, the gun was consistant and a gun I could grab and shoot with no issues at all. Yes the RE-BRANDED USA HATSAN, THE WALTHER!!!! EVEN AFTER A BARREL MISHAP AND A CHOP JOB THE GUN WAS STILL A KEEPER. SO THE CONVERSION HYPE HITS. i PULL THE GUN A PART AND STRIP THE RAM AND PUT THE SPRING BACK IN. Now the gun puts out more FPS but is a hand full. GUN IS ON BUT NOT A TAME GUN. So the ram helps remove the torquing,twisting and recoil with loss of FPS. As we all know speed is not always good FOR ACCURATENCY.
I am glad THAT GENE has stepped in on the conversion. As a MODERATER OF THE FORUM AND A MODDER IN THE HOBBY: He can be of help in this conversion with the main thing we need to remember SAFETY. Yes it is a given he is not going to want a maximum limitation exceeded on any mod. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
Maxing out anything is pushing THE safety concern and the life of what ever you are testing. Example: In my SUPERCHARGED trk I could turn more RPM'S get more HP at the rear wheels THUS MAKING THE TRK MUCH MORE QUICKER. But it is not safe for all the componets in the drivetrain.
Yes this is the same on the guns. 25 fps more in comparison to 1000 RPMS AND 25 more HP. But how long will it last. My tuner will not give me the extra 1000 RPMS for the same reason GENE WILL NOT. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
 So there are two sides of SAFETY. Safety for your health and being and safety for the product lasting. Well so much for the SOAP BOX start of the day

 I dont know what rams your talking about that would exceed the limitations,
What members  have done so far was to see what the cocking effort , and fps with different calibers, while using the correct stroke gas ram for there  testing, namely a 100,and a 125.
 the enforcer has been eliminated, because  of it not being the easiest  to cock.

 The  Xl  has been  tested with good to moderate results,, the moller red, with good to moderate result of 900 fps in a .22
 Now the  moller yellow is next, I dont see anything  going over and beyond the limitations,  no different if you used premium gasoline, with a better carburetor with the best spark plug wires.

Lets  bring it back to what it is, your not re boring the engine, your tuning it up''big difference.
 and all with in its own design and limitation. In a .22 caliber we know the sweet spot is around 950 fps, we know that anything over 1,000 creates instability in the pellets flight.  The results then we would want to see would be from 900 fps to 980 fps in a .22, anything way beyond that is defeating the purpose and I would regard as ridicules,

Bear with me here Mike as it's not a dig or attack.

Just answer this simple question.

Do you know what the stress failure point is for the Hatsan Quatro Trigger?

[z28rod]

"Do you know what the stress failure point is for the Hatsan Quatro Trigger?"
This should be known by Hatsan . But I doubt they will tell you due to liability issues. Brent

[Paul68]

It can also be discovered by tuners as well, fairly easily. But that's not the point I want Mike to understand.

[Mike 4888blues]

Crosman rams are not adjustable to my knowledge. The XL ram, If I received the correct ram is 1/4 shorter on the barrel and the shortness on the shaft. You need to remember I bought one of the WFH from PA a year a go with the nitro installed and after all the hype of the fire blazing withthe HATSAN have dis assembled the the gun and stripped it of the conversion. The WFH ram is not the XL. So I have 1 version of the conversion in my hands. It is proved that one can make the XL work and work safe. I can at will test the difference of the 2 rams in load carrying.
In the WFH, the gun was consistant and a gun I could grab and shoot with no issues at all. Yes the RE-BRANDED USA HATSAN, THE WALTHER!!!! EVEN AFTER A BARREL MISHAP AND A CHOP JOB THE GUN WAS STILL A KEEPER. SO THE CONVERSION HYPE HITS. i PULL THE GUN A PART AND STRIP THE RAM AND PUT THE SPRING BACK IN. Now the gun puts out more FPS but is a hand full. GUN IS ON BUT NOT A TAME GUN. So the ram helps remove the torquing,twisting and recoil with loss of FPS. As we all know speed is not always good FOR ACCURATENCY.
I am glad THAT GENE has stepped in on the conversion. As a MODERATER OF THE FORUM AND A MODDER IN THE HOBBY: He can be of help in this conversion with the main thing we need to remember SAFETY. Yes it is a given he is not going to want a maximum limitation exceeded on any mod. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
Maxing out anything is pushing THE safety concern and the life of what ever you are testing. Example: In my SUPERCHARGED trk I could turn more RPM'S get more HP at the rear wheels THUS MAKING THE TRK MUCH MORE QUICKER. But it is not safe for all the componets in the drivetrain.
Yes this is the same on the guns. 25 fps more in comparison to 1000 RPMS AND 25 more HP. But how long will it last. My tuner will not give me the extra 1000 RPMS for the same reason GENE WILL NOT. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
 So there are two sides of SAFETY. Safety for your health and being and safety for the product lasting. Well so much for the SOAP BOX start of the day

 I dont know what rams your talking about that would exceed the limitations,
What members  have done so far was to see what the cocking effort , and fps with different calibers, while using the correct stroke gas ram for there  testing, namely a 100,and a 125.
 the enforcer has been eliminated, because  of it not being the easiest  to cock.

 The  Xl  has been  tested with good to moderate results,, the moller red, with good to moderate result of 900 fps in a .22
 Now the  moller yellow is next, I dont see anything  going over and beyond the limitations,  no different if you used premium gasoline, with a better carburetor with the best spark plug wires.

Lets  bring it back to what it is, your not re boring the engine, your tuning it up''big difference.
 and all with in its own design and limitation. In a .22 caliber we know the sweet spot is around 950 fps, we know that anything over 1,000 creates instability in the pellets flight.  The results then we would want to see would be from 900 fps to 980 fps in a .22, anything way beyond that is defeating the purpose and I would regard as ridicules,

Bear with me here Mike as it's not a dig or attack.

Just answer this simple question.

Do you know what the stress failure point is for the Hatsan Quatro Trigger?

 Paul as we speak''  That information for the new Quattro trigger will be sent out and tested, I will be giving detailed dimensions,  thickness of trigger pieces, trigger pins, trigger block etc. for a complete analysis.
If a trigger is designed for a magnum rifle and getting 950 fps in a . 22  ''mechanically speaking''  ""how strong do you think that design is? how strong? whats your best guess  for possible failure?
 1-1/2 to 2 x  the entire Load? My guess is you would not be able to cock the rifle if the piston was so strong that it would cause trigger failure.

what we are talking about is the 950 fps mark with the spring, and  not  over 1,000 fps in a .22 with a gas ram, That is 50 fps additional. 50 ft additional. Let me remind everyone that a new J M seal  installed with out adjustment, was able to knock off 50 fps, in a recent post you do the math.


I

[Tarheel]

Getting the Quattro trigger tested should provide accurate, objective data as to it's strengths and weaknesses. We should be able to see the forces and loads on each component, throughout the mechanism. This kind of information should be extremely useful to all tuners, whether dealing with stock or aftermarket springs, as well as gas ram conversions.

With gas rams, most likely, being the way of the future in break-barrel rifles, we might want to think about having similar testing done on other trigger assemblies, too!

Safety is the most important thing and this will go a long way towards making things safer for everyone who works on these rifles.

Thanks, Mike !

Dave

[z28rod]

"My guess is you would not be able to cock the rifle if the piston was so strong that it would cause trigger failure."
X 2

[Bryan Heimann]

I don't know about that.  There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs.  There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally.  Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction.  Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head.  You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring.  Definitely not on the maps...

[Tarheel]

X 2

I would rather have reliable data . . . Estimates are OK for predicting performance.

Dave

[Paul68]

X 2

I would rather have reliable data . . . Estimates are OK for predicting performance.

Dave

Precisely.

The trigger assembly is the most critical aspect here when increasing potential energy.

As well as the wear properties of the metal and the maximum load bearing capability of the sear contact area, you also have to take into account the entire trigger assembly as a unit. Perhaps the load at the sear and piston contact point will become enough to overcome the spring tension on the sear, causing a serious hair trigger and random release condition. This is much more likely to happen before actual structural failure of the sear occurs.

Manufacturers generally have a safety margin built into their failure rates for devices, which if I am not mistaken is usually the actual failure point multiplied. By how much, don't know.

Point is, if you don't know the actual failure point of a device, then it is impossible to say a modification is certifiably safe until you can demonstrate a preserved margin of safety. Worse, the added stresses in this case will definitely affect wear rates, which means your safety margin is going to shrink prematurely compared to a factory design.

For all you guys know, going to a high pressure gas spring could be putting just enough stress on the trigger group to be a serious hazard, but only a month or so down the road.

Its not enough to assume the factory designed the trigger to withstand the weight of a battleship and call it "good". They designed it for the load the original spring would create, nothing else. You have to find out just how much your alterations are going to affect it.

 

[Mike 4888blues]

I don't know about that.  There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs.  There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally.  Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction.  Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head.  You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring.  Definitely not on the maps...

I don't know about that.  There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs.  There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally.  Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction.  Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head.  You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring.  Definitely not on the maps...

 well we were talking about the quattro trigger, not any others

[Tarheel]

For all you guys know, going to a high pressure gas spring could be putting just enough stress on the trigger group to be a serious hazard, but only a month or so down the road.

Its not enough to assume the factory designed the trigger to withstand the weight of a battleship and call it "good". They designed it for the load the original spring would create, nothing else. You have to find out just how much your alterations are going to affect it.

Which is precisely why the entire Quattro trigger mechanism is being evaluated.

Dave

[Mike 4888blues]

X 2

I would rather have reliable data . . . Estimates are OK for predicting performance.

Dave

Precisely.

The trigger assembly is the most critical aspect here when increasing potential energy.

As well as the wear properties of the metal and the maximum load bearing capability of the sear contact area, you also have to take into account the entire trigger assembly as a unit. Perhaps the load at the sear and piston contact point will become enough to overcome the spring tension on the sear, causing a serious hair trigger and random release condition. This is much more likely to happen before actual structural failure of the sear occurs.

Manufacturers generally have a safety margin built into their failure rates for devices, which if I am not mistaken is usually the actual failure point multiplied. By how much, don't know.

Point is, if you don't know the actual failure point of a device, then it is impossible to say a modification is certifiably safe until you can demonstrate a preserved margin of safety. Worse, the added stresses in this case will definitely affect wear rates, which means your safety margin is going to shrink prematurely compared to a factory design.

For all you guys know, going to a high pressure gas spring could be putting just enough stress on the trigger group to be a serious hazard, but only a month or so down the road.

Its not enough to assume the factory designed the trigger to withstand the weight of a battleship and call it "good". They designed it for the load the original spring would create, nothing else. You have to find out just how much your alterations are going to affect it.

 

We dont know what they designed that trigger load for, just because it is installed does not make it designed for that exact load producing 950fps ,we can not assume that the trigger is maxed out at that given power load  as well. 

We cant assume that 50 fps more above the snipers 950 fps is  going to produce any wear on any parts., Until the testing is done on the trigger, I would  be adjusting my ram only another 30 fps,  above the average of 950fps that it normally generates  making it a total of 980fps in a .22

When you consider you can loose 50 fps when using a new un adjusted j m piston seal,
 The 30 fps above the snipers average in all probability should have no effect at all.

 We shall see,the triggers mechanism, is designed very well, it had many variations leading up to the quattro trigger, there is nothing wimpy about it.

 All the stored energy inside a snug fitting trigger block,with solid sear and mechanism parts, locked in with solid pins, then the entire trigger block is mounted  with two large retaining pins, It is well designed, and well made work of art.





 

[Bryan Heimann]

I don't know about that.  There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs.  There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally.  Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction.  Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head.  You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring.  Definitely not on the maps...

I don't know about that.  There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs.  There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally.  Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction.  Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head.  You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring.  Definitely not on the maps...

 well we were talking about the quattro trigger, not any others

So what's your point?  I was, too.  Actually, pretty much any trigger.  Sorry to offend you with a little bit of caution, best of luck to you

[Paul68]

X 2

I would rather have reliable data . . . Estimates are OK for predicting performance.

Dave

Precisely.

The trigger assembly is the most critical aspect here when increasing potential energy.

As well as the wear properties of the metal and the maximum load bearing capability of the sear contact area, you also have to take into account the entire trigger assembly as a unit. Perhaps the load at the sear and piston contact point will become enough to overcome the spring tension on the sear, causing a serious hair trigger and random release condition. This is much more likely to happen before actual structural failure of the sear occurs.

Manufacturers generally have a safety margin built into their failure rates for devices, which if I am not mistaken is usually the actual failure point multiplied. By how much, don't know.

Point is, if you don't know the actual failure point of a device, then it is impossible to say a modification is certifiably safe until you can demonstrate a preserved margin of safety. Worse, the added stresses in this case will definitely affect wear rates, which means your safety margin is going to shrink prematurely compared to a factory design.

For all you guys know, going to a high pressure gas spring could be putting just enough stress on the trigger group to be a serious hazard, but only a month or so down the road.

Its not enough to assume the factory designed the trigger to withstand the weight of a battleship and call it "good". They designed it for the load the original spring would create, nothing else. You have to find out just how much your alterations are going to affect it.

 

We dont know what they designed that trigger load for, just because it is installed does not make it designed for that exact load producing 950fps ,we can not assume that the trigger is maxed out at that given power load  as well. 

We cant assume that 50 fps more above the snipers 950 fps is  going to produce any wear on any parts., Until the testing is done on the trigger, I would  be adjusting my ram only another 30 fps,  above the average of 950fps that it normally generates  making it a total of 980fps in a .22

When you consider you can loose 50 fps when using a new un adjusted j m piston seal,
 The 30 fps above the snipers average in all probability should have no effect at all.

 We shall see,the triggers mechanism, is designed very well, it had many variations leading up to the quattro trigger, there is nothing wimpy about it.

 All the stored energy inside a snug fitting trigger block,with solid sear and mechanism parts, locked in with solid pins, then the entire trigger block is mounted  with two large retaining pins, It is well designed, and well made work of art.

Mike, it has nothing to do with how much faster the gun shoots.

This post points out exactly what I am trying to get across Mike. Which is that you, and please don't take this the wrong way, are in over your head. I've gotten the feeling from a few of the Vets posts on this subject, that they have been trying to say the same thing, just a little more subtley.

To get an extra 50FPS, takes a LOT more stored energy, which means a lot more stress on the trigger. The increase in FPS and FPE is not parallel to ram (spring) energy. As you go higher in ram energy, your gains get smaller.

Just because you are "only" increasing speed by 50FPS in other words means nothing.

I'm not trying to tear you down. I've been watching all this for awhile along with a lot of other folks and haven't said much except to point out a few hints that perhaps you might want to slow down. But I honestly think this might be heading for some unpleasant mojo for ya.

[Bryan Heimann]

Exactly.  There is more to boosting power than just installing a stronger spring or ram.  There is a point of diminished returns, where it takes exponentially more force and speed to compress a given volume of air fast enough to give you a noticeable power increase.  At 30 fpe, with the Hatsan 125, you are already pretty dang close to that point.  All of the Hatsan guns come with heavy pistons and extremely stout springs.  I'm willing to bet that even with a ram so strong that it required some type of mechanical assistance to cock the gun, you'd still never get very far beyond 35 fpe and i doubt the sear would hold up against such force

[Mike 4888blues]

I don't know about that.  There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs.  There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally.  Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction.  Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head.  You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring.  Definitely not on the maps...

I don't know about that.  There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs.  There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally.  Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction.  Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head.  You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring.  Definitely not on the maps...

 well we were talking about the quattro trigger, not any others

So what's your point?  I was, too.  Actually, pretty much any trigger.  Sorry to offend you with a little bit of caution, best of luck to you

I don't know about that.  There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs.  There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally.  Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction.  Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head.  You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring.  Definitely not on the maps...

I don't know about that.  There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs.  There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally.  Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction.  Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head.  You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring.  Definitely not on the maps...

 well we were talking about the quattro trigger, not any others

So what's your point?  I was, too.  Actually, pretty much any trigger.  Sorry to offend you with a little bit of caution, best of luck to you

Hi Bryan.
  You did not offend me, and I did not mean  to ''sound offensive to you, you made a good point, just at the time I  responded to you, I was strictly focused  on the quattro  after reading  and trying to catch up on where I last left off  in this particular post.

Its  all good Bryan. your input is just as valuable as everyone else .
Best regards Mike

[sawtoothscream]

I just cant wait to here the results