wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )

[Mike 4888blues]

So, the Moeller Red is basically the same power as the Crosman Nitro Pistons

Based on the numbers right now, that seems to be accurate for the time being. However, Mike is still dealing with Piston Seal issues and other factors that will likely come into play, in terms of the "combination" ( Piston Weight, Pre-Load, etc ).

Dave

 with the new installed j m seal the fps was 850 fps in .22  14.3 grn lead pellet,  I did not have time to wait for Break in"" period as we are testing to see our results here.

 after sanding it down and ruined it being I was tired and up very late
the seal i reinstalled is the original wfh seal it works fine  so I would except the 900 fps we our getting with  that.
 from that point it will be + or -   with in the 900 fps depending on how tight a person seal is, and exactly how they did there conversion
 
I am happy with our results,  900 fps in a .22  14.3  is not bad for a gas ram in a safe level.

[Nomadic Pirate]

I'm sure they will, but the Crosman Nitros I have in my 3 guns, have being darn good for a long time now

[Lambchops]

Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?

[Tarheel]

Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?

OK . . . "Real World" Numbers first

MOELLER "RED" . . .  900 fps X 900 fps X 14.3 gr / 450240 = 25.72 FPE

The "ideal" from Scotchmo's equation ( .23 EC ) = 27.14 FPE

Dave

Dave

[Tarheel]

The "numbers" , as I see them, tell me that the combination is not "optimized" ( Piston Weight, Friction, etc )

At present, if Scotchmo's equation is the "standard", the numbers reflect an "EC" ( efficiency coefficient of .33 -  aka 33% ) . . .

From what Scotchmo said, an EC of .35 to .38 should be possible.

Dave

[Mike 4888blues]

I'm sure they will, but the Crosman Nitros I have in my 3 guns, have being darn good for a long time now

  are you using the large one  because the smaller ones seem to be wimp in power for a ,22  lead 13.4 grn pellet getting around 700 fps it would be nice to see  around 800 fps then i would not complain.

 how ever the gta members using 177 pellets must be very happy

[Tarheel]

  are you using the large one  because the smaller ones seem to be wimp in power for a ,22  lead 14.3 grn pellet getting around 700 fps it would be nice to see  around 800 fps then i would not complain.

My Nitro Venom .22 is right around 700 fps with 14.3 gr CPHP's.

700 fps X 700 FPS X 14,3 gr / 450240 = 15.56 FPE

Dave

[Mike 4888blues]

The "numbers" , as I see them, tell me that the combination is not "optimized" ( Piston Weight, etc )

Dave

Hi dave
  your thinking theres more power to be had from the moller red?

 criss magnum 116 asked about piston weight  being the same when the original top hat was used with the spring, but i could not make a piece to compensate  the weight of the top hat.

 i had just enough room to make the rams piece it pivots in inside the pistons bottom and the end piece the rams body sits it.

 the piece i made inside the bottom of the piston was about 3/8'' deep, with a divot drilled out in the middle the end piece for the rams body to seat in was was maybe 1/2'' wide of delrin  that
is all the room I had to deal with

 I know alittle more would be awesome like 930 to 950 fps
 but honestly I would not like to try the moller yellow, judging the cocking level of the red

[Mike 4888blues]

Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?

OK . . . "Real World" Numbers first

MOELLER "RED" . . .  900 fps X 900 fps X 14.3 gr / 450240 = 25.72 FPE

The "ideal" from Scotchmo's equation ( .23 EC ) = 27.14 FPE

Dave

Dave

 you know the moller rams are adjustable I wonder Dave if we could order them with more power for in between the red and the yello

[Tarheel]

Hi dave
  your thinking theres more power to be had from the moller red?

 criss magnum 116 asked about piston weight  being the same when the original top hat was used with the spring, but i could not make a piece to compensate  the weight of the top hat.

Possibly . . . At present, we have an "EC" ( efficiency coefficient ) of .33 ( 33% ) . . . Scotchmo indicated that an "EC", ranging from .35 to .38 should be possible.

Several factors come into play:

(1) Piston Weight

(2) Friction

(3) Alignment

(4) Other ( Need expert input here )

If the "EC" could be increased, this is what the "numbers" SHOULD look like, based on Scotchmo's equation :

.33 = 25.59 FPE
.34 = 26.37 FPE
.35 = 27.14 FPE
.36 = 27.92 FPE
.37 = 28.69 FPE
.38 = 29.47 FPE

Dave

[Tarheel]

Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?

OK . . . "Real World" Numbers first

MOELLER "RED" . . .  900 fps X 900 fps X 14.3 gr / 450240 = 25.72 FPE

The "ideal" from Scotchmo's equation ( .23 EC ) = 27.14 FPE

Dave

Dave

 you know the moller rams are adjustable I wonder Dave if we could order them with more power for in between the red and the yello

Mike,

Yes, you can . . . Those are the "BLACK" gas rams . . .

Dave

[Tarheel]

I know alittle more would be awesome like 930 to 950 fps but honestly I would not like to try the moller yellow, judging the cocking level of the red

Mike,

Can you measure the Cocking Effort of the "RED" ram ?

Initial ?

Maximum ?

Thanks !

Dave

[Mike 4888blues]

I know alittle more would be awesome like 930 to 950 fps but honestly I would not like to try the moller yellow, judging the cocking level of the red

Mike,

Can you measure the Cocking Effort of the "RED" ram ?

Initial ?

Maximum ?

Thanks !

Dave

 I have a digital scale I will get a book to lay on it and zero it out  and try, I will have  to be very careful its in the wfh and you know  we cant put any pressure of=n the butt of the stock at trigger area. i will get back to you in a minit with that
Mike

[Mike 4888blues]

I know a little more would be awesome like 930 to 950 fps but honestly I would not like to try the moller yellow, judging the cocking level of the red

Mike,

Can you measure the Cocking Effort of the "RED" ram ?

Initial ?

Maximum ?

Thanks !

Dave

 I have a digital scale I will get a book to lay on it and zero it out  and try, I will have  to be very careful its in the wfh and you know  we cant put any pressure of=n the butt of the stock at trigger area. i will get back to you in a minit with that
Mike

ok  Dave what I am getting is  around  52 initially, 
 the final force is like 47 the digital scale will fluctuate so i am grabbing the numbers as i see them at first before they change  usually lower if i keep the barrel in one position  i tried  it like 16 x lol every time is a little different
 

[Lambchops]

I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..

[Mike 4888blues]

I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..

 But what did super teck use  with what cal?
  i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger  fps

[Lambchops]

Back in the summer he had a long 12 page thread and he said power was near 42 FPE in .22

[Mike 4888blues]

Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?

OK . . . "Real World" Numbers first

MOELLER "RED" . . .  900 fps X 900 fps X 14.3 gr / 450240 = 25.72 FPE

The "ideal" from Scotchmo's equation ( .23 EC ) = 27.14 FPE

Dave

Dave

 you know the moller rams are adjustable I wonder Dave if we could order them with more power for in between the red and the yello

Mike,

Yes, you can . . . Those are the "BLACK" gas rams . . .

Dave

I thought I posted  for this I dont se it

 Monday  I will call  moller punch to see if i can send back the ram  to have them fill it 30% more

[Paul68]

I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..

 But what did super teck use  with what cal?
  i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger  fps

ST's has more than just a gas ram installed. Itpro did a lot of work tuning and matching the components. Remember, ST hasnt chronied his either, so he's giving perceptual results. He did say he switched to an Nforcer yellow though didnt he?

Given that Micro is getting 30+- Fpe in 25 cal from his 125 with a spring, and 22 cal usually (in most cases judging from forum member experiences) performs better than 25 cal FPS and Fpe wise, I'm thinking your initial results are a detune Mike.

Did you take into account the weight of the alignment block you made for the gas piston rod that sits within the actual piston? My 125 had no tophat, just a plastic washer, does your WFH have a tophat? If so, what is the difference in weight between the original tophat and the new alignment block?

[Mike 4888blues]

I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..

 But what did super teck use  with what cal?
  i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger  fps

ST's has more than just a gas ram installed. Itpro did a lot of work tuning and matching the components. Remember, ST hasnt chronied his either, so he's giving perceptual results. He did say he switched to an Nforcer yellow though didnt he?

Given that Micro is getting 30+- Fpe in 25 cal from his 125 with a spring, and 22 cal usually (in most cases judging from forum member experiences) performs better than 25 cal FPS and Fpe wise, I'm thinking your initial results are a detune Mike.

Did you take into account the weight of the alignment block you made for the gas piston rod that sits within the actual piston? My 125 had no tophat, just a plastic washer, does your WFH have a tophat? If so, what is the difference in weight between the original tophat and the new alignment block?

 hi paul  please scroll back up on this page I address the piston weight  and  what I did
thanks