Update On WFH .22 bought used with bad triger 125.00( It works fine!)958 fps

[Tarheel]

I am thinking the Moeller Red is the way to go. I have already used the N-Forcer MF19-125 Yellow. I think the best bang for the buck, with less risk of damage is the Moeller M90-125 Red. The 100 mm series are the same size as the NPs used in the Crosman and Benjamin NP Trails. I plan to test a NP Trail NP in my Hatsan 95. If that works well, I may try a Moeller M90-100 Red in that.

Mark,

What problems have you encountered that cause you to suggest a reduction in gas ram power from the Yellow to the Red ?

Which rifle did you use the Yellow gas ram and what kind of chronograph number did you get with it ?

Dave

[Tarheel]

Well boys if I wasn't confused before, I am now. If I put one of these in my WFH will it be safe with a yellow one or are you now saying red would be a safer bet. 180 bar is around 2800 PSI.
The red at 150? 2400 psi....what would your fps guess be on that one. Can a better sear be installed? I get twitchy when safety is compromised. You had me drooling when this first appeared now I'm on the fence.

There is nothing wrong with caution !

That is why I am taking the time to research all of this . . . LOL !

Dave

[Smackey54]

I am thinking the Moeller Red is the way to go. I have already used the N-Forcer MF19-125 Yellow. I think the best bang for the buck, with less risk of damage is the Moeller M90-125 Red. The 100 mm series are the same size as the NPs used in the Crosman and Benjamin NP Trails. I plan to test a NP Trail NP in my Hatsan 95. If that works well, I may try a Moeller M90-100 Red in that.

Mark,

What problems have you encountered that cause you to suggest a reduction in gas ram power from the Yellow to the Red ?

Which rifle did you use the Yellow gas ram and what kind of chronograph number did you get with it ?

Dave

Here is how I did the WFH .25 with the N-Forcer Yellow.    http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,24324.0.html

[Tarheel]

I am thinking the Moeller Red is the way to go. I have already used the N-Forcer MF19-125 Yellow. I think the best bang for the buck, with less risk of damage is the Moeller M90-125 Red. The 100 mm series are the same size as the NPs used in the Crosman and Benjamin NP Trails. I plan to test a NP Trail NP in my Hatsan 95. If that works well, I may try a Moeller M90-100 Red in that.

Mark,

What problems have you encountered that cause you to suggest a reduction in gas ram power from the Yellow to the Red ?

Which rifle did you use the Yellow gas ram and what kind of chronograph number did you get with it ?

Dave

Here is how I did the WFH .25 with the N-Forcer Yellow.    http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,24324.0.html

OK . . . Just read that thread.

You didn't mention any problems, so why would you want to reduce power ?

I don't want "factory" WFH or NP XL power. I am looking for a powerful rifle for hunting, not "stock" or "near stock" performance.

Supertech77 has put more than 2000 pellets through his without any problems.

Thanks,

Dave

[Smackey54]

It is not only the color...as the initial and ending forces vary within color by brand/maker. Let me put it this way...I tried a Crosman XL piston (same as the 19-125 pistons discussed here), and I only lost about 20fps from the MF19-125 yellow in my WFH .25. Now....Supertech77 has put that MF19-125 yellow in his Walther Talon Magnum .22 and is getting great results with 31gr pellets.
I think the Moeller M90-125 Red is a good choice, because the yellow is VERY hard to cock...and places some real heavy strain on the upper sear. I am guessing...and only guessing that with a new piston seal from JM, cylinder hone, piston polish, and debur, the Moeller Red will get you nearly the velocity as the yellow, without as much beef required to cock it, and....a little less pressure on the sear.
I have a new WFH .22 in the mail (SAS, old trigger), and after I get it, I will tune, fill the butt stock with foam, and install a Moeller red in it....but don't expect any results for about a month. I have a few other projects working right now.
Perhaps ...because of the "area" of the pellet (diameter included), the results are much better in the .22 than the .25.
I'm not very big and I'm 58 years old. I want something I can cock more than 10 times without having a sore shoulder! 

[Tarheel]

It is not only the color...as the initial and ending forces vary within color by brand/maker. Let me put it this way...I tried a Crosman XL piston (same as the 19-125 pistons discussed here), and I only lost about 20fps from the MF19-125 yellow in my WFH .25. Now....Supertech77 has put that MF19-125 yellow in his Walther Talon Magnum .22 and is getting great results with 31gr pellets.
I think the Moeller M90-125 Red is a good choice, because the yellow is VERY hard to cock...and places some real heavy strain on the upper sear. I am guessing...and only guessing that with a new piston seal from JM, cylinder hone, piston polish, and debur, the Moeller Red will get you nearly the velocity as the yellow, without as much beef required to cock it, and....a little less pressure on the sear.
I have a new WFH .22 in the mail (SAS, old trigger), and after I get it, I will tune, fill the butt stock with foam, and install a Moeller red in it....but don't expect any results for about a month. I have a few other projects working right now.
Perhaps ...because of the "area" of the pellet (diameter included), the results are much better in the .22 than the .25.
I'm not very big and I'm 58 years old. I want something I can cock more than 10 times without having a sore shoulder! 

Mark,

What about the KALLER 19mm x 125mm YW vs the MOELLER 19mm x 125 RD ?

N-FORCER   Initial Force : 200 lb   Final Force : 260 lb

KALLER       Initial Force : 202 lb   Final Force : 260 lb.

MOELLER     Initial Force : 203 lb   Final Force : 304 lb   YW
                    Initial Force : 158 lb   Final Force : 236 lb   RD  ( about a 20% - 25% drop )

Dave

[supertech77]

all i can say is my talon 22cal,shoots smooth and accurately and has a lot of fpe with the 28gr.4 and the 32.4gr eunjins.mine is not that hard to cock,my cylinder/chamber in bored and polished i have a maccari piston seal and my transfer port is a bit size larger,and my piston is weighted with nickels,i,m over 3k pellets now,and since the eunjins are expensive to shoot nutters and starlings,i now load 2 14.3gr cphp's or cpum's and have the double tap affect on starlings out to 50yards,shots are 1/4 inch apart at 50yards,goes threw gator aid bottle filled with water,most 22cal spring or break barrel pellet rifles can't handle 32gr or 28gr pellets with power and accuracy,those pellets are designed for PCP and it Tell's you that on the package.as for the np in my gun it was originally installed in my gun by itpro,and he never told me of the brand,only that it was a 180bar 125x19,since he installed it,i completely took the gun apart,and completely went threw it,every piece in this gun is polished/filed/honed/or bored,weighted and if it broke today,i would replace the np with a enforcer yellow,as for a red vs yellow,it is up to the shooter,what he/she prefer ;easy to cock and comfortable and fun to shoot, mine is the way it is because i made it that way,when i shoot it i usually shoot 100 or more shots and my arm don't hurt,my talon and my r.a.m both are easy to cock to me,maybe i,m just use to it.smackey54 has a excellent post on the conversion,as does others as well.bottom line you paid 125.00 for a 250.00 air rifle and it is shooting accurately at 954 fps in 22cal,what else could you want?

[Tarheel]

it is shooting accurately at 954 fps in 22cal,what else could you want?

PLUS, that 954 fps with 28.4 gr pellets . . . A "stock" Walther Falcon Hunter, Talon Magnum, or Hatsan does that with 14.3 gr pellets.

954 fps w/ 14.3 gr = 28.9 fpe "Stock"

954 fps w/ 18.1 gr = 36.58 fpe

870 fps w/ 22.1 gr = 37.15 fpe

Getting 36 - 38 fpe should be very doable. That is an increase in power of 25% - 30% over the "Stock" rifle !

Dave

[Mike 4888blues]

all i can say is my talon 22cal,shoots smooth and accurately and has a lot of fpe with the 28gr.4 and the 32.4gr eunjins.mine is not that hard to cock,my cylinder/chamber in bored and polished i have a maccari piston seal and my transfer port is a bit size larger,and my piston is weighted with nickels,i,m over 3k pellets now,and since the eunjins are expensive to shoot nutters and starlings,i now load 2 14.3gr cphp's or cpum's and have the double tap affect on starlings out to 50yards,shots are 1/4 inch apart at 50yards,goes threw gator aid bottle filled with water,most 22cal spring or break barrel pellet rifles can't handle 32gr or 28gr pellets with power and accuracy,those pellets are designed for PCP and it Tell's you that on the package.as for the np in my gun it was originally installed in my gun by itpro,and he never told me of the brand,only that it was a 180bar 125x19,since he installed it,i completely took the gun apart,and completely went threw it,every piece in this gun is polished/filed/honed/or bored,weighted and if it broke today,i would replace the np with a enforcer yellow,as for a red vs yellow,it is up to the shooter,what he/she prefer ;easy to cock and comfortable and fun to shoot, mine is the way it is because i made it that way,when i shoot it i usually shoot 100 or more shots and my arm don't hurt,my talon and my r.a.m both are easy to cock to me,maybe i,m just use to it.smackey54 has a excellent post on the conversion,as does others as well.bottom line you paid 125.00 for a 250.00 air rifle and it is shooting accurately at 954 fps in 22cal,what else could you want?

 i am just observing this post on rams, yes I paid 125.00 for the wfh it read 954 in.22 i have no complaints/ I may ram it, after hearing  whats being shared here, you know us guys have a hankering to get in to a project/
 

[Mike 4888blues]

it is shooting accurately at 954 fps in 22cal,what else could you want?

PLUS, that 954 fps with 28.4 gr pellets . . . A "stock" Walther Falcon Hunter, Talon Magnum, or Hatsan does that with 14.3 gr pellets.

954 fps w/ 14.3 gr = 28.9 fpe

954 fps w/ 28.4 gr = 57.4 fpe

That bottom number may not be correct ( if I misunderstood the number Mick quoted ), BUT getting 36 - 38 fpe should be very doable. That is an increase in power of 25% - 30% over the "Stock" rifle !

Dave

Now i like that ideal iam still watching you guys  post your info.[/b]

[Tarheel]

it is shooting accurately at 954 fps in 22cal,what else could you want?

PLUS, that 954 fps with 28.4 gr pellets . . . A "stock" Walther Falcon Hunter, Talon Magnum, or Hatsan does that with 14.3 gr pellets.

954 fps w/ 14.3 gr = 28.9 fpe

954 fps w/ 28.4 gr = 57.4 fpe

That bottom number may not be correct ( if I misunderstood the number Mick quoted ), BUT getting 36 - 38 fpe should be very doable. That is an increase in power of 25% - 30% over the "Stock" rifle !

Dave

Now i like that ideal iam still watching you guys  post your info.

NOTE : There were some typo's and incorrect numbers in what Mike just quoted . . . I went back and corrected them . . . Sorry !

Dave

[Tarheel]

This is the CORRECT info . . . Sorry !

PLUS, that 954 fps with 28.4 gr pellets . . . A "stock" Walther Falcon Hunter, Talon Magnum, or Hatsan does that with 14.3 gr pellets.

954 fps w/ 14.3 gr = 28.9 fpe "Stock"

954 fps w/ 18.1 gr = 36.58 fpe

870 fps w/ 22.1 gr = 37.15 fpe

Getting 36 - 38 fpe should be very doable. That is an increase in power of 25% - 30% over the "Stock" rifle !

Dave

[Paul68]

Keep in mind, ST's Talon has had more than just a simple tune and gas piston installed. I'm particularly curious about the mention of an opened port. The piston is weighted as well. Even though the gas spring will give more energy, the whole system needs to be balanced.

I'm also wondering, have you cronyed it with the different pellets Supertech?

[supertech77]

Keep in mind, ST's WFH has had more than just a simple tune and gas piston installed. I'm particularly curious about the mention of an opened port. The piston is weighted as well. Even though the gas spring will give more energy, the whole system needs to be balanced.

I'm also wondering, have you cronyed it with the different pellets Supertech?

  no paul i have no crony ,i do know that it goes threw 1100 pages of a phone book at 15ft with a 32.4gr and 28.4 gr eunjins,and you are so right about balance,weight,volume and mass,it all is important ,i will ask all whom read this post to try your most powerful break barrel rifle at 15ft with a 32.gr eunjin pointed or a 28.4gr domed eunjin to shoot at a 1100 page phone book and back it with a 2x4,let me know if it goes threw and out of site into the board.i know of only one other that can do that,and that is itpro's tf87 np and his crony's at 958fps with 25gr pellets.and is also dead nut accurate,good luck.all

[Tarheel]

no paul i have no crony ,i do know that it goes threw 1100 pages of a phone book at 15ft with a 32.4gr and 28.4 gr eunjins,and you are so right about balance,weight,volume and mass,it all is important ,i will ask all whom read this post to try your most powerful break barrel rifle at 15ft with a 32.gr eunjin pointed or a 28.4gr domed eunjin to shoot at a 1100 page phone book and back it with a 2x4,let me know if it goes threw and out of site into the board.i know of only one other that can do that,and that is itpro's tf87 np and his crony's at 958fps with 25gr pellets.and is also dead nut accurate,good luck.all

Hmm . . . Impressive !

I need to find a way to get some "hard numbers" on the performance of your rifle , and others who have done the conversion . . .

Dave

[Paul68]

I'm pretty sure I'll be getting a chrony VERY soon once my 125 arrives. I am fast moving beyond simple home tuning and will certainly need one for the next level of modifying. Selling off a couple old toys on Craigslist and if they go fast, a chrony will be in the tool room immediately. I am really itching to see what my current AG's put out, and once I get my hands on a couple gas springs I'll really need one to see what effect they have on my Beeman 1051 and the Hatsan125.

[Smackey54]

It is not only the color...as the initial and ending forces vary within color by brand/maker. Let me put it this way...I tried a Crosman XL piston (same as the 19-125 pistons discussed here), and I only lost about 20fps from the MF19-125 yellow in my WFH .25. Now....Supertech77 has put that MF19-125 yellow in his Walther Talon Magnum .22 and is getting great results with 31gr pellets.
I think the Moeller M90-125 Red is a good choice, because the yellow is VERY hard to cock...and places some real heavy strain on the upper sear. I am guessing...and only guessing that with a new piston seal from JM, cylinder hone, piston polish, and debur, the Moeller Red will get you nearly the velocity as the yellow, without as much beef required to cock it, and....a little less pressure on the sear.
I have a new WFH .22 in the mail (SAS, old trigger), and after I get it, I will tune, fill the butt stock with foam, and install a Moeller red in it....but don't expect any results for about a month. I have a few other projects working right now.
Perhaps ...because of the "area" of the pellet (diameter included), the results are much better in the .22 than the .25.
I'm not very big and I'm 58 years old. I want something I can cock more than 10 times without having a sore shoulder! 

Mark,

What about the KALLER 19mm x 125mm YW vs the MOELLER 19mm x 125 RD ?

N-FORCER   Initial Force : 200 lb   Final Force : 260 lb

KALLER       Initial Force : 202 lb   Final Force : 260 lb.

MOELLER     Initial Force : 203 lb   Final Force : 304 lb   YW
                    Initial Force : 158 lb   Final Force : 236 lb   RD  ( about a 20% - 25% drop )

Dave

Here's my take: I think the key is in the delta between Initial and End Force; the gain is where the speed is obtained, but obviously the higher the force, the more difficult to cock and more pressure on the upper sear. Let's compare the Delta for Kaller, N-Forcer and Moeller:

Brand                Color                  End Force                  Initial Force                Delta

Kaller                 RD                      214                            157                          57
Kaller                 YW                      270                            202                          68

N-Forcer             RD                      195                            150                          40
N-Forcer             YW                      260                            200                          60

Moeller               RD                      236                            158                           78
Moeller               YW                      304                            204                          100

I think you have to have a balance between Final Force, and Delta. The largest gains in force are with the Moeller, but I believe the Moeller Yellow would be a real bugger to cock! I am looking at the Moeller red to use in my next experiment with the .22 WFH I am getting and maybe the TF 87 or TF 89 I just got. I will let all know when I get those done and the results.

Have a great weekend!
Mark

[Lambchops]

I've been reading about Supertech's 180 bar rammed gun for months and i'm dying to know chrony numbers.... Lol

[Mike 4888blues]

I've been reading about Supertech's 180 bar rammed gun for months and i'm dying to know chrony numbers.... Lol

Yeah,  that would be  interesting to see, 180  sound like to much  hhmm  i wonder  what gas ram he used