Where do shooting errors start?

[Random Plinker]

I'm thinking a rifle shooting angle error (deviation from a perfect shot) begins essentially at the shooting line, because the rifle is a straight unbending line from the standing shooter's shoulder. 

I'm thinking pistol shooting angle errors mostly originate at the shooter's outstretched hand (shooting one handed).  Some error in arc/angle at the shoulder joint, but for me at least, mostly at the hand stretched out over the shooting line by ~0.6 meters or so.

Where do your angle shooting errors originate, and what proportion where (80% hand, 20% shoulder for example)?  I've never seen this considered when scaling targets, but I've been thinking about it ...

[SciGuy]

Its all about finding your natural point of aim and consistently setting yourself up at the line the same way.  Set yourself up at line.  Bring the sights on target. Now close your eyes, lift the rifle or pistol up slightly and then come back down to where you think the target should be.  Now open your eyes.  Are you still on target?  If not, adjust your stance and/or grip and repeat (works easier with a coach checking your position). 

Once you find your natural point of aim and determine how to setup at the line to have your natural poa on target, then it is a matter of practicing the setup until it becomes automatic.  And then do it another 10,000 times.

As for your original question, I say that the original error various with each shooter.  To me it is very similar to a golf swing.  Everybody's body is different and as such sources of area are often different for each person.

[ac12]

I think it starts and ends in the head.
Few examples:

Holding toooooo long.  The only reason you hold too long is that your head thinks it can still pull off the shot, even though the body is shouting ABORT ABORT ABORT.  And the wobble in your hold is getting worse and worse ... and you shoot the 4 ring.  I'm guilty of this one.  It is SOOO mentally hard to abort the shot, yet you know you should.  This is actually 2 different parts of your brain fighting each other; one shouts ABORT, the other thinks it can pull it off.

Fussing too much over the last bad shot.  Thinking too much about the last bad shot can cause you to duplicate that bad shot again.  That bad shot is history, forget it and move on.  Easier said than done.  Example: My college "friend" and I used to go golfing, and he would point out the canal "watch out for the canal."  Where do you think I hit the ball...into the canal.

All the stuff that your head controls.
- drinking a cup of coffee before shooting, so the caffeine is stimulating your muscles when you should be calming down instead.  Don't take stimulants before shooting. 
- not eating enough food to last you thru the match, so in the middle of the match you're hungry and thinking of food and not the target.
- are you stressing out because you forgot your pellets and have to scrounge pellets.  This actually happened at a match I shot at, the guy forgot to bring his pellets.  So he was stressed cuz he had to scrounge pellets from another shooter, and was then shooting with different pellets than he was used to and had to test and rezero his sights for the different pellets.
- etc.

As for the other stuff that affect the "perfect shot."
- Grip is IMPORTANT.  If you are not properly holding the pistol, then you will be compensating for a bad hold.  Get that right and you are not compensating.  Part of this is fitting the grip to your hand.  And this is active fitting where the grip is doing something to help the hold, vs. passive fitting which would be like grabbing a block of clay.
- Trigger finger.  A steady gradual pull, NOT a jerk.  And pull STRAIGHT BACK, not to the side.  I was constantly shooting odd shots to the left of where I was aiming.  After doing some dry fire exercises I discovered that I was pushing the trigger to the left when I shot.  If my grip did not compensate for that push, my shot went left.
- Sight picture and aiming error. 
-  -  Consistent sight picture, focusing on the FRONT SIGHT. 
-  -  Which sight picture you use; dead on, 6-oclock, sub-6.  There are different ideas that lead to using the different holds.  For target shooting, I went from 6-oclock to sub-6.  That was a HARD change to do, similar to the stance NPA change below, my eye kept wanting to go back to what it had been used to, the 6-oclock hold.  It was like breaking a habit, it was hard and it took a LONG time.
-  -  Width of the front sight.  I think the current school is to have the front sight visually the apparent same width as the bull.  This helps with the horizontal alignment of the front sight with the bull.
-  -  The visual image of the sights and how much white space is on both sides of the front sight, in relation to the width of the front sight.  A very narrow "sliver" of light is more accurate to reduce aiming error is theoretically correct, but not practical in practice. The reason is we cannot hold that steady to use a "sliver of light."  There are different schools of thought using different ratios of white:frontsight:white of 1:1:1,  1:2:1,  2:1:2  The age of the person affects this selection.  Younger eyes can handle less light around the front sight (1:2:1).  Older eyes need more light around the front sight (1:1:1 or even 2:1:2).  A dim range may need more light around the front sight. 
- Stance itself.  Each person is different, so you need to work on a stance that works for you.  But comfortable is not necessarily correct either.  This is where I deviate from Natural Point of Aim (NPA).  The body may have a NPA because of ingrained bad habits or other factors.   Example:  Do you stand upright or slouch, do you bring your head down to your shoulder or hold it upright.  In correcting these stance issues you have to train the body into a new stance which after the body gets used to it will result in a new NPA.  This is like when I went to get AR coaching, my AR coach completely rebuilt my stance.  It did not feel natural for several months, I had to THINK about getting into position, until I got used to it, now I can easily go into the stance.  As Mike said, repeat it 10,000 times, and develop muscle memory...which develops into a new NPA.
- and a LOT more

So there are a LOT of stuff that affects "the perfect shot."

[Random Plinker]

That's worth a read and re-read and re-read....  Great advice and awesome checklist.  It's like you guys were watching my mistakes while I shoot!

Going down the list for pistol:  grip, stance, trigger control, sight picture.  I guess I would bin grip and trigger control as errors that cause an angle of deviation from perfect at the hand, and stance and sight picture as errors that cause an angle of deviation from perfect at the shoulder joint?

The particular application I had in mind was target scaling.  Take scaling from 10M to 5M as an example.  If the shooting error originates at the shoulder, essentially on the firing line, the distance ratio for scaling target scoring distance (ring diameter plus pellet diameter) is simply 5/10 or 0.5.  But if the shooting error begins to vary the angle at which the gun is pointed away from perfect at the hand, roughly 0.6M (or whatever it is) over the firing line, then it seems the distance ratio for scaling target scoring distance is (10-0.6)/(5-0.6), or 0.47.

When I shoot a rifle, mechanically, it feels like the deviation from a perfect shot due to error always manifests itself as an arc originating at a point on the shoulder (or maybe a rotation at the stock hand grip, but still close to the the body), regardless of error, because th rifle itself is unbending.  With a pistol, I think most of the time my errors manifest themselves as an arc originating at a point near the hand.  It feels like my shoulder and outstretched arm stay fairly well still.  When I jerk the trigger, for example, the pistol rotates at my hand and rewards me with a 4 or worse, but it doesn't feel like my arm moving at the shoulder is what sent the errant shot away from perfection.  But if I don't focus on the front sight, or my stance is off of NPA so I'm fighting my body wanting to rotate away, then the whole body system is mis-aligned from the shoulder out.  Most of the time though, it feels like my pistol errors manifest themselves at the pistol grip.

[ac12]

Wobble could be both at the arm (shoulder joint) as well as the body itself swaying (so midway between front and rear feet)
You could have hand motion at the trigger which pivots at the grip or at the wrist.  Although that is only about 2-1/2 inch difference.

[amb5500c]

I agree with ac12 in his above post. My take on it is: Most shooting errors start between your ears.
Richard

[Random Plinker]

Thank you.  Your helping me see I'm suffering from over kill between the ears on this     Sounds like the shoulder is every bit as likely as the hand, and I should stop worrying about scaled 5M pistol target ring sizes not worrying about this.  Unless the scaled 5M pistol target shooters notice consistently different scores, I'll bury this line of reasoning and save myself and g2h a lot of trouble revising the associated targets.  That, and start putting the good advice above to good use.

[Brushy Bill]

In pistol, it is in the hand, or just poor sight alignment.
This diagram helps explain what can be going on.

http://www.pskm.be/Pistol_Shot_Analysis.pdf

[Tom @ Buzzard Bluff]

"I think it starts and ends in the head."

BINGO! Beat me to it.

[amb5500c]

So there are a LOT of stuff that affects "the perfect shot."

"The perfect shot." What a grand concept, huh? It's what we all seek. Back when I was shooting a lot of competitive archery, I learned a little about this concept. Things like: having the proper equipment, technique, execution, etc. etc. The perfect shot has to be created. When achieved, every shot thereafter has to be a "re-creation" of that shot. That's easier said than done due to a multitude of factors. Shooting position, mood, physical ailments, weather, lighting, time of day or year, wear & tear of equipment, the list is endless. That's where practice comes in. It's been said that "practice" makes perfect. Not always true. A better statement would be that, "perfect practice" makes perfect.
Richard

[Mark@]

A friend in his 50s was telling me about mount biking with his attorney friend.  The attorney is a state champion rider.  My friend has no such aspirations, rather he likes mountain biking because of the intense focus required.  If you lose your focus, you're in the dirt, or worse.  But he loves the fact that the world must be blocked out.  That's the escape he craves.

I see shooting the same way.  You focus, and squeeze.  Of course, it's not that easy.  Some folks struggle at public ranges, because they can't block out folks, feel pressure to perform, etc.  And a routing all but eliminates these issues.

A routine is critical in everything from golf to bowling, to archery, just as it is with shooting.

With trap shooting, I:

1 - step to the line

2 - gun to shoulder

3 - lean slight forward, with bent knee

4 - cheek to the stock

5 - "Pull!"

Setting up the same way, before striking a golf ball will greatly improve your game.

Find your routine for each of these sports and you will find success.