ARH Hornet / Vortek seal combo for HW97k ?

[Kragman1]

Hi all!

I finally got myself a 97k in .22, and finally got to shoot it as well.
I found it to be down tuned to 11-12 fpe, and is too wind sensitive for my taste.  Very nice firing cycle though.

I've heard a few times that many people prefer the ARH spring (full power) & Vortek seal combo for a good balance of velocity and shootability.

I'd like to hear the "what to expect" details from anyone who has experience with this setup, as I will either be ordering a Hornet spring or a Titan XS spring in the near future for my 97k.

Thanks all!

[Motorhead]

As power goes up, so will the cyclic vibration !!  There is NO free lunch here !!!

The 77/97 rifles with the sliding compression chamber generally are very consistent and the Vortek seal is a drop in, where as the ARH will need to be correctly sized to be friction free as the VT.
Unsized ARH will cost you power 

As too the Spring guide set up ... personal choice there as the reality is that FIT of any spring to the guide is KEY in having a damped/dead shot cycle being twang free.
Cyclic vibration or "THUMP" is relative to the output / power you are getting.

JMO ...

[Kragman1]

I should add that I'll be making up delrin spring guide for whatever spring I go with...

[SpiralGroove]

Yeah, I’d go with the Hornet and Vortek Seal.
I always use plastic wrap from a Smart Water bottle inside the piston to dampen twang ….. along with snug spring guide.
That way you can use less heavy tar on the (piston) spring end. Make a top-hat on the lathe too.

 

[Mark 611]

Watching  

[splitbeing]

Following

[Yogi]

Would the same recommendation fit for all/ or most Weihrauch rifles?
TIA,
Yogi

[Kragman1]

Well, I'm just guessing here Yogi, but since the 97 & 77, plus the 85/95/98 are so similar I'd say that whatever the results are for my 97 would be replicated in a 77, and that the results would be almost the same for an 85/95/98.

I have limited experience with spring swaps, so I generally find out what the OEM dims are and calculate its spring rate.  I do the same for whatever springs I'm considering, so that I have some sort of decent guesstimate on how much I'm changing rate.  Of course that's not the only thing that matters, but it's nice to know.
In a perfect world, we'd always have springs available that only needed 20% compression to provide almost instant extension and would never fatigue.  Wishful thinking.

I recently wanted to down tune my FWB Sport but i didnt want to lose much velocity if i could help it.
It got a Titan #4 with a Vortek HW80 seal and a snug delrin guide..  A little less spring but it nmakes as much power now as it did before the swap (14fpe).  I basically copied the common fix of removing 1 or 2 coils from the OEM spring, I just did it with spring selection instead of a torch.
it's easier to cock and has much better manners than the way it.left the factory.  Firing cycle is still quite brief but it "stops" better, if you know what I mean.

I'm going to end up doing the same thing with the 97k, but the goal will be to have OEM velocities without buzz/honk.  In fact, if I had a good OEM spring I'd simply use that.  I tend to buy Titan springs because they're made of quality materials and I can find good dimensions on them.  Very helpful when you're long distance mixing and matching.

[Mark 611]

Yogi, he's right if you have a modern 26mm gun in his list, these parts should work in all of them without modification, 

[Yogi]

Well, I'm just guessing here Yogi, but since the 97 & 77, plus the 85/95/98 are so similar I'd say that whatever the results are for my 97 would be replicated in a 77, and that the results would be almost the same for an 85/95/98.

I have limited experience with spring swaps, so I generally find out what the OEM dims are and calculate its spring rate.  I do the same for whatever springs I'm considering, so that I have some sort of decent guesstimate on how much I'm changing rate.  Of course that's not the only thing that matters, but it's nice to know.
In a perfect world, we'd always have springs available that only needed 20% compression to provide almost instant extension and would never fatigue.  Wishful thinking.

I recently wanted to down tune my FWB Sport but i didnt want to lose much velocity if i could help it.
It got a Titan #4 with a Vortek HW80 seal and a snug delrin guide..  A little less spring but it nmakes as much power now as it did before the swap (14fpe).  I basically copied the common fix of removing 1 or 2 coils from the OEM spring, I just did it with spring selection instead of a torch.
it's easier to cock and has much better manners than the way it.left the factory.  Firing cycle is still quite brief but it "stops" better, if you know what I mean.

I'm going to end up doing the same thing with the 97k, but the goal will be to have OEM velocities without buzz/honk.  In fact, if I had a good OEM spring I'd simply use that.  I tend to buy Titan springs because they're made of quality materials and I can find good dimensions on them.  Very helpful when you're long distance mixing and matching.

Agreed to the quality of the metallurgy in Titan Springs.  However, that technology makes trimming the ends more difficult.

-Yogi

[Kragman1]

Not sure what "trimming" encompasses but I've needed to dress the ends of the three Titan springs I've played around with - one was very poorly squared, one was squared a bit less poorly and one was pretty nice and only needed a minor touch (the one in the FWB Sport).
No problems doing that on a simple belt sander with a modestly aggressive grit, maybe 240 when it.was fresh?  Just guessing on that.
Didn't allow the area to build any noticeable heat by only working it for a couple.of moments at a time and dunking it in water every tine i took it from the belt.  The whole process took a couple of minutes and I took my time.  Finished within my 10 minute break at work.

[Yogi]

Trimming means cutting.  Like what you do to your toenails.  Sorry should have been more specific.
After cutting coils, how do you finish the cut end?

-Y

[Mark 611]

If I cut a spring, I use a cut off wheel Dremel type tool, then using a propane torch heat it back up and reseat the end as flat as possible, quench it in oil, after it cools, I use my bench grinder, the side of the wheel to grind it back flat/square, I usually don't need to polish the end the wheel does a good clean job of that, that's how I do it

[Kragman1]

Mark pretty much nailed it.

That said, heating the spring so that the end can be re-squared removes the spring temper from the affected coils.  I'm not an expert, but I don't think that a simple quench in oil is really going to re-temper the steel.  You'd get some stress relief I suppose but spring tempering is a specific process that we all aren't set up for.

Dont get me wrong - it still works because most coils are not affected.  But I would always prefer not to do that if possible. In theory, the Titan #4 looked to provide the same spring performance as cutting coils would have in the FWB and it appears to be true in practice.

I'll be looking to do the same thing with the HW97 - find a spring that I'm guessing will give the performance I'm looking for and go from there.
Right now, I'm the most interested in a Titan #5 since it is nearly the same wire size and coil/length as OEM but somewhat smaller in wound diameter.  I'm thinking that it should give me near OEM velocities but with gentler cocking and firing strokes.  At least, that appears to be the secret to the RWS 94 performance...

[Mark 611]

I'll say this, I have not had any of my cut springs ever break doing it this way, I have also chopped a few Titan springs recently for my HW35, and a few of my COMETA rifles, same method no issues so far! I like the TITAN springs; I like the fact they have SWEEDISH Steel! Tony Wall the English tuner uses these springs from what I understand! I also think Hector uses these springs on some of his work, 

[Deerstalker]

ARH kit + Vortek seal with GPL-205 lube in my HW95K averages about 17 FPE with FTT 14.66 gr 5.53 mm pellets.  Shot cycle recorded via iPhone at 5' & cocking cycle is silent until trigger latch.  Guess about 4K shots so far and rifle is accurate for someone in their 86 trip around the Sun.

[Jason_Garvin]

I have a .177 97k with a ARH hornet kit and vac seal, and it is up there on velocity.  If I had only one thing to moan about would be during extended shooting sessions, I start to feel it with that short lever vs cocking effort.  It is a hammer for sure.

Jason

[Toxylon]

Country of origin doesn't mean much anything when it comes to steel quality, especially at the Swedish / British / German / French level. It's the specific composition and heat treating of the steel that matters, and Titan springs are at the top there.

I use the same procedure as Mark, and have learned the heating with a micro gas torch doesn't really affect the spring outside the work area: the metal doesn't get hot enough, just a smidge into the unheated part. I do make sure I align the flame with the coil to be removed, and keep it at a medium size.

The cut and collapsed end is obviously weaker / softer than it used to be, but it doesn't matter, since it rests against a full, strong coil.

[EMrider]

ARH hornet kit and a Vortek seal in my .177 hw97k is giving me about 13fpe with JSB 10.3s.  I tried a Vortek PG4 kit and it was too harsh (about 15.5fpe).  Much prefer this setup.
R

[Yogi]

Country of origin doesn't mean much anything when it comes to steel quality, especially at the Swedish / British / German / French level. It's the specific composition and heat treating of the steel that matters, and Titan springs are at the top there.

I use the same procedure as Mark, and have learned the heating with a micro gas torch doesn't really affect the spring outside the work area: the metal doesn't get hot enough, just a smidge into the unheated part. I do make sure I align the flame with the coil to be removed, and keep it at a medium size.

The cut and collapsed end is obviously weaker / softer than it used to be, but it doesn't matter, since it rests against a full, strong coil.

The ends of my cut spring broke off after about 1/3 turn.  That is why I asked.

-Yogi