Model 95 Learning Curve

[sandog1]

I saw the combos at $125 at AGD and had to order one. (.22 caliber Vortex)
I knew the included scope was going to be iffy, but I was looking forward to an affordable break barrel with a nice wood stock.
And I did o.k. on the wood, it's a really nice looking rifle.

The trigger pull out of the box was 3 3/4 lbs. Not too bad but a lot of pretravel. The breech seal looked intact and not damaged.
I pushed several pellets down the barrel, starting with my skinniest, Norma GTFT, up to my fattest, JSB 15.89 grain.
The Norma barely had any engraving on the skirt, the JSB had quite a bit of rifling marks on the skirt, and a few on the head, which the Norma did not.
After the breech the pellet was pretty easy to push until the muzzle. Good thing there is a few inches of choke there.
I wasn't too concerned about the looser middle of the bore, I figured I'd shot it and see.

Wasn't too happy about the Chrono readouts though, 640 with CPHP and other 14.3 gr. pellets. The JSB 15.89's were doing
620.
I looked a the breech seal closer, and it looked below flush. I checked with my thumb and couldn't feel any rubber, just the metal at the outside. I got a metal straightedge and checked, the breech seal was for sure below the level of the steel ring around the breech.
I didn't have to do the tissue test to know that I was loosing air there.

Not having any extra breech seals on hand, I removed the old seal, put a few wraps of waxed dental floss in the groove and re-inserted the seal flipped around.
Not sure if I should have reversed the seal after the dental floss shim as the bottom of the breech seal looked more square edged than the top, which was rounded.
The floss was mint flavor, so now my rifle will smell better when it diesels !

I ran some 14.3 pellet through the Chrono and now they are 700 fps. Better but I was hoping for 750-780.
Maybe my piston seal was damaged from burrs in the chamber ?
I started storing the rifle muzzle down, as I heard a guy say he's done that for the last 6 years and his air ram gun is still going strong. The reasoning I guess is that any lube in the cylinder will migrate down to the seal and keep it pliable.

Years ago I had a Diana 34, but it's been a while since I had a Springer or air ram rifle. I've been shooting pumpers and PCP's.
This thing sure seems hold sensitive after my zero recoil PCP's.
I started just resting the fore-end on a sandbag and my thumb around the top of the grip, and pulling the trigger slightly upwards towards my thumb. (Yes I've read about the "Quattro Pull".)

I fired about 60-70 pellets using the iron sights before mounting the Optima scope. I didn't use the cheap, high see thru rings provided with the scope, but some medium Sportsmatch rings with stop pin that I had.
The reticle of the scope was fuzzy so I backed out the eyepiece to suit my eyes, then I saw that at any closer range the image was fuzzy too. I removed the outer trim ring on the objective, then backed out the lend carrier so now the scope is better suited for the 10-50 yards I'll be using it for. The lens carrier turns very easy so you have to ensure it doesn't move while you screw the trim ring back on.

My backyard range is 13 yards-39 feet. If I want to shoot farther I have to pack up the gear and drive into the desert.
Almost every group I shot with 5 types of pellets had 3 slightly low right that could be covered by a dime, while the other two were 1 1/2" higher and more left.
The 3 in every group that almost touch have me encouraged that this 95 might shoot, and that my hold needs improvement.

Reading through some old threads I heard about the stock screws getting loose, and when it checked the screw inside the trigger guard, it was pretty loose.
I tightened it and shot some more groups today, hopefully that the "two separate groups" thing would be fixed.
I also threw another variable into the mix by holding the rifle a bit firmer today. I have heard some on here say that the usual artillery hold didn't work on their Hatsans and they preferred a firmer hold.

Well groups today were worse, I didn't get any of the nice 3 shots touching, just 2-3 inch groups.
Tomorrow I'll try a light hold again now that the stock screws are tight.
So far the CPHP and Piranha have grouped better than the JSB and Gamo pellets I have.

 I'd like to give this rifle a chance and I don't mind working on them to get them better. If I can't get it grouping better I might start to consider sending it back for a replacement.
Do you think Hatsan would send me a few breech seals if I call and tell them how thin the one that came on my rifle was ?
Maybe factory seals wouldn't be any better and I should try to find aftermarket ones.

After a friend and I got done shooting some 7.62 x 39 rifles and handguns today, we packed up everything and I broke out the 95.
We had a good time trying to hit a small white rock that was out about 40 yards. We kept hitting close enough that it was entertaining.
Here is the rifle during the backyard testing:





 
 


 

[Blowpipe Sam]

My spring powered mod 95 gets a maximum 736 FPS with 14.3gr CPHP for 17.2 FPE.  This is considered mild for a mod 95.  Average velocity for my gun is in the 730 FPS range.  I don’t mind because the gun is very accurate and 17 FPE is plenty of medicine for what I hunt. If your piston seal is nicked it should manifest as erratic velocity.  If your Vortex ram is a little down on pressure it would account for your low velocity numbers.  IMO the Hatsan Magnum springers are all over sprung and accuracy and shootability (as well as durability) improve when the guns are detuned.

[Back_Roads]

 I see you have done your research on the Hatsan 95, The scope may be an issue they are known to wander on the zero. Hatsan factory seals work fine when in stock. I have used the aftermarket ones too but they do need custom fitting sometimes.
 I say shoot it some more , recheck crony numbers. May want to try H&N branded pellets with larger head size also.

[mikeyb]

I saw the combos at $125 at AGD and had to order one. (.22 caliber Vortex)
...

Nice effort so far. I'm getting about 750fps using CPHP 14.3 in my Mod95s.

I suspect your muzzle energy is low due to a weak Vortex air spring? What is the manufacture date on your Mod95?

Dates on my limp Vortex spring rifles are usually 4-8 years prior to my purchase. That means those o-rings have been under high pressure in unknown conditions for much of their expected life prior to sale. Buna o-rings do wear and AGE (harden and/or deform over TIME.)

Storing rifle muzzle down to keep internal oil on the o-ring seals can't hurt. The oil ON the o-rings for the first shots after STORAGE will minimize o-ring wear.

Some break-barrels do shoot better with a firm hold. I only have 1 out of many dozens that shoot best with the artillery hold. That 1 is a 25cal Striker Wood coil spring. Don't know WHY but it's a shotgun with the artillery hold and pellet-on-pellet with a death grip hold. May be related to the LONG TIME the pellet is in the rifle (25 cal ~530fps)?

All my Mod95 variants shoot best with some form of artillery hold.

IME these rifles ARE very hold sensitive and EVERY LITTLE DETAIL of your hold, trigger-pull, and FOLLOW THROUGH can change point-of-impact. If you haven't shot a springer in awhile it will take time to re-learn how picky these rifles can be regarding hold and pellet choice. Seems like you may have a good rifle but just need some time to re-learn springers??



FWIW I advise anyone looking at the AGD sale (Mod95 Combo $125) to choose the COIL SPRING version, NOT the Vortex version.

I say that because I'm up to 8 leaked/limp Vortex air springs (across several different rifle versions) and have decided I'd rather change my rifles to use a steel coil spring instead of resealing the Vortex. The Vortex air springs will all eventually leak, some very slowly, some overnight. Choice is ultimately yours to make.

The marketing hype behind air/gas springs is mostly HYPE. They do shoot smoother right out of the box but a properly SNUG coil spring guide will shoot just as nice.

Yes, coil springs DO wear out or break also but that usually happens after many thousands of shots.

Out of MANY dozens of coil spring rifles I have only seen two with a broken coil springs. Rifle#1 was a used-as-is-for-parts purchase (SwissArms b19 clone) from someone who apparently sprayed wd40 or starter fluid into the compression tube. KAPOW! THAT coil spring was shattered into 5 pieces. I replaced spring & seals for ~$10 and rifle is now shooting factory fresh.

Rifle #2 was a well USED and NOT ABUSED Mod85 purchased from a fellow GTA member. Sold as-is so I knew exactly what I was getting. Coil spring was broken about 4 turns from the end. I cut/collapsed/polished the broken spring end and reused the spring in a 177 version of that rifle. Shorter spring reduced ME from ~20 fpe to ~12 fpe but that rifle was so much fun to shoot at the lower energy I kept it there even though I have a new full-energy spring ready to install.

I have yet to "experience" any coil spring breaking in one of my rifles. Compare that to a smaller number of Vortex rifles and 8 limp Vortex springs. Still love Hatsan rifles overall but I'm done with Vortex air springs :-(

[sandog1]

Thanks to all that have responded, I've read a lot of your posts in the back pages here, and I appreciate the pool of knowledge.
I have the means to air up the Vortex, rebuilding one with new seals would be a new experience for me.
But with much less pre-load, it sounds like the air units are easier to re-install than a new spring ?
I hope to be able to just enjoy the 95, but if it came down to replacing the powerplant, might as well go the spring route and be done with it.

I had a 3-12x side focus BugBuster that I tried to use, but could see that the scope body was way too short.
I'm thinking about a 1 piece off set mount with a 4x like the Hawke Vantage. I'd like to keep the scope as light as possible and the 4x weighs 12 ounces. Putting a larger variable that weighs 20 ounces or more must surely add a lot of mass that will stress the mounts and scope stop.

The Airmax has the etched reticle and is better glass but they don't make it in a fixed power, 2-7x is the smallest and is a pretty short scope like my Bugbuster.

I could see that the front screw of the trigger was already all the way in, so I went to Ace and got a 3mm screw that was longer.
I installed it to the depth of the factory screw then started adjusting it in small increments.
Each time I turned the screw in further, the trigger pull gauge still said 3 3/4 lbs. It just wasn't changing.
After a few more attempts, the pull has dropped to 3 lbs.
I know that if you turn the screw in too much, the safety will stop working and turn it in a bit more, and the rifle will no longer cock. I haven't gotten to that point yet, it's possible that I can further lighten the trigger and still have a functional safety.
.
I'll try to work on my hold. With all that slam banging of the piston and the long dwell time of the pellet getting out the barrel, that follow through has to be pretty important.

[Blowpipe Sam]

Not sure I’d trust a Hawke Vantage scope atop a Hatsan springer.  Waste of good glass. I prefer Winchester brand airgun rated scopes on my Hatsan springers. Not the best glass but tough and cheap.

[H95Kidd]

Thanks to all that have responded, I've read a lot of your posts in the back pages here, and I appreciate the pool of knowledge.
I have the means to air up the Vortex, rebuilding one with new seals would be a new experience for me.
But with much less pre-load, it sounds like the air units are easier to re-install than a new spring ?
I hope to be able to just enjoy the 95, but if it came down to replacing the powerplant, might as well go the spring route and be done with it.

I had a 3-12x side focus BugBuster that I tried to use, but could see that the scope body was way too short.
I'm thinking about a 1 piece off set mount with a 4x like the Hawke Vantage. I'd like to keep the scope as light as possible and the 4x weighs 12 ounces. Putting a larger variable that weighs 20 ounces or more must surely add a lot of mass that will stress the mounts and scope stop.

The Airmax has the etched reticle and is better glass but they don't make it in a fixed power, 2-7x is the smallest and is a pretty short scope like my Bugbuster.

I could see that the front screw of the trigger was already all the way in, so I went to Ace and got a 3mm screw that was longer.
I installed it to the depth of the factory screw then started adjusting it in small increments.
Each time I turned the screw in further, the trigger pull gauge still said 3 3/4 lbs. It just wasn't changing.
After a few more attempts, the pull has dropped to 3 lbs.
I know that if you turn the screw in too much, the safety will stop working and turn it in a bit more, and the rifle will no longer cock. I haven't gotten to that point yet, it's possible that I can further lighten the trigger and still have a functional safety.
.
I'll try to work on my hold. With all that slam banging of the piston and the long dwell time of the pellet getting out the barrel, that follow through has to be pretty important.

Thought I would add my 2cents to the discussion on the Hatsan 95 as well, as I'm a BIG fan of this rifle. How Hatsan can sell these rifles at super low prices when they run "specials" is beyond me. I got mine (a Vortex model) years ago and it's a .22 cal. Like many with the Vortex ram, it shot until it didn't. One day to the next, from full charge/power to completely empty. After a long drawn out process, I finally secured a replacement ram from Hatsan and eventually got it installed. Basically my first attempt at repair of pretty much ANY airgun, I did have some difficulties but got'r done. I did do a "thread" on it (ram replacement) a few years back if you care to search and take a look. At that time she was shooting a JSB 15.89 @ avg of 745 ft/sec. with the "new" Vortex. As of today, she is still shooting well, but I have not chronied again since, so that might be interesting to see what she is doing currently. So yes, the rams CAN last for years, but can also fail unpredictably. So, (MikeyB's and others) advice to replace with spring power is probably good advice. Me, I'm a bit stubborn and LIKE the gasram concept, so will continue down this road for awhile I guess. We'll see how long my 95 goes with that replacement ram. When it DOES fail, and I know it will, I'll probably do a rebuild on it and reinstall.

Regarding the trigger, longer screw is the ticket here, you just cannot get "greedy" with the adjustment. Be happy with SOME reasonable improvement of the trigger "break" and you should still be safe/ok. Getting greedy, and trying to create a Quattro "match" trigger break (like a Rekord) is asking for trouble. Yes, you can do it, but it most likely will NOT last and will quickly become unsafe and/or fail to cock. Reasonable, middle-of-the-road adjustment is the key here and should last for many thousands of shots.

The 3x9 Optima scope that came on mine is still going. I did change the rings and carefully lapped them in before mounting the scope. Like others, I did the shadetree parallax adjustment and the focus is now quite good at normal airgun ranges. We'll see how long it takes before it quits.

So, to sum up, I'm pretty happy with mine in spite of the Vortex ram failure. I hope you can enjoy shooting yours as well. I should mention that as much as I like the 95, it has been relegated to 2nd class citizen (airgun?) recently . I have been using my Gamo Hunter Extreme (.22 cal also) more these days. Gas ram as well, but WAY more power than the 95. Avg 877 ft/sec with the JSB 15.89's.  Discussion for another day...

[19Sheridan57]

  Usually, I don’t post many replies concerning “ Twangers, “ but I do have some experience with these & a similar Webley VMX .20 , made by Hatsan. My VMX was a little hard to shoot & erratic til a friend on here tuned it up for me . Before the tuning, it was clocked at 745 with 13.7 pellets. After tuning it is about 700 but is much smoother. It likes a firm grip & has a Hawk Vantage on top.
   My friend bought a new Model 95 Vortex QE &   We shot it a few times. It was accurate with supplied cheap scope & clocked at 730 . He played with it a few sessions & put it in a closet . A couple of years later it was dead.  If I bought a new one with gas cylinder , I would try storing it on its muzzle . If it died , I would convert  it to spring & tune it up. I don’t get concerned over the loss of only about 5% in FPS.

[longhunter]

All the Hatsans I've had weren't happy being shot off a rest.
However, when shot in hunting situations, they were deadly accurate.
The best hold I found was to put your index finger on the forward stock screw, and your thumb on the opposite side of the screw.
This will center the base of your index finger knuckle in the slot for the cocking slot.
Curl your remaining fingers into a loose "fist".
Let the gun rest in your off hand, pull the stock to your shoulder with the trigger hand.
YMMV.

[sandog1]

I'll for sure try the lighter hold next time I shoot.
I'm liking the 95 enough that I'm thinking about getting one in .25 caliber. For $125 you can't go wrong.
If I get bored with one or the other I'll give one to my son-in-law.

[CellarRat]

I ran a couple shots through the chronograph on my refurbished mod95 with H&N excite 14 grain for 762 and 772 fps. It's a vortex non QE and I shoot with open sights because I can't  get a mount to stay put. It's maybe a little hot and when the o rings on the vortex fail I will try lower pressure to see if it helps the shot cycle. 16 or 17 ft lbs would be plenty for a little less recoil.
I have been enjoying this rifle a lot and it's my 6th Hatsan.

[tripiy]

I bought mine spring powered combo around a year back from AGD and mostly plink at my 1.5” spinner at 25 yards offhand with reasonable 80% success rate.
Since last week I’m trying to get more objective and statistical with paper shooting. Needless to say that it paints the grim but REAL picture.
Here are today two 5 shot groups( if u call it groups )
The bottom target was first attempt. The top target turned out much better with the low left shot being a known pull from me.
I use artillery hold standing unsupported with just a tad push on shoulder to butt pad. The front just rests on fingers.
I have to say the gun definitely has more to offer than my capabilities to extract.

[Berserkeley Mike]

My M95 seems more accurate if I do what I can only describe as an artillery hold (look for images of Tom Gaylord or @SSS$$$), but then firm that up so that the platform or whatever I'm providing to the gun stays on target, through the target even, while the gun jerks around. 
Mine launches different .25 pellets from 16-18ft# since new (2019), Vortex piston, gun stored barrel down.  But by Mikeyb's numbers, I may be due for a metal spring soon!
It is my understanding that a de-tuned or de-stressed metal spring will last a lot longer than one tuned for maximum power. 
Funny, I recently got a "good" springer (HW-something), and while it is much better than the Hatsans, I can't hate the Hatsans either!  They are great beater guns, learning guns. 

[Blowpipe Sam]

Don’t worry about the disappointing paper groups.  In the field my mod 95 has never failed to deliver.  I “harvested” a gray squirrel at 56 yards with the gun braced against the side of a tree.  That’s my longest ever with a springer.  The mod 95 rides in the cab of the pick-up during hunting season.  It is my stone reliable back-up gun.