Proper Oil for my RWS Springers?

[DrGunner]

Hey Folks-
It’s been a while since I posted here… I need a little help/advice. I have 3 RWS Springers. A Model 36/.177, a Model 45/.177 and a Model 350M/.22.
I have 2 bottles of oil that I bought long ago, the labels fell off a few years back, and both bottles are getting kind of low. I created my own labels by copying the instructions from the old labels and from a card that came with an oiling/cleaning kit.
I can’t recall if the bottles were RWS or Beeman brand. Those instructions are copied below.

What brand of chamber and pivot lube do you use/recommend? Where to purchase?

Any information you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Regards-

DrGunner

Bottle 1:
Chamber/Piston Seal Oil. Once every 1000 shots: Apply 3-4 drops directly to chamber exhaust port & cock the rifle to pull oil in. Fire with felt cleaning pellets until “misting” resolves.
 If dieseling occurs on firing, store rifle with exhaust port down to allow gravity to drain off excess oil for 24 hours & shoot felt pellets until misting clears.

Bottle 2: Mainspring & Pivot Oil. Apply 2-3 drops to mainspring & all hinges/pivot points. DO NOT apply in or near chamber.

[DrGunner]

FWIW, I THINK it might have been these two products:

[Toxylon]

In my opinion and experience, oil shouldn't be used to lube the compression chamber / piston / piston seal of a springer. It is too volatile and too transient to do the job well. Even after visible oil mist or smoking has subsided, there's plenty of dieseling effect going on, for a really long time.

Springers, outside antique leather-sealed ones, aren't lubricated by dropping anything through the transfer port into the compression chamber. They are lubricated by disassembling the gun, cleaning all internal parts effectively, and applying a very small amount of semi-solid lube such as high-moly content moly paste, or teflon-derivative products such as Krytox or Ultimox. Then the gun will shoot perfectly for thousands and thousands of shots without any further internal lubrication.

Any oil containing silicone (such as the quoted Chamber Oil) should never be used anywhere where metal surfaces are in a moving contact (such as piston / chamber interface), as silicone promotes galling in that scenario.

That there is a long-lived product called Chamber Oil by a reputable company does not mean it's a good idea.

Even with external parts such as cocking lever pins, pivot joints etc., it's mostly best to use lubrication such as high-moly content paste instead of oil, lubricating more efficiently, keeping in place better and lasting longer. I only use oil on specific spots such as the vertical sidelever axle pins of sidelever Dianas.

[Yogi]

Dr Gunner,

Oil is needed to keep leather piston seals pliable.  Other than that, oil is used on co2 guns to lubricate the co2 canister to gun threads.
Oil should not be used on spring guns with synthetic seals.

-Y

[DrGunner]

Thanks for the replies….

Well this is interesting.
First of all, please understand that I am not trolling or trying to start an argument here, just trying to understand how the advice of today is diametrically opposite of everything I’ve ever been told about maintaining these rifles from the manufacturer and their US service company.

Apparently there has been a complete paradigm shift in the maintenance recommendations for these rifles in the last 20.
     I bought my 36 in 1983, my 45 in 1984, and my 350M in 1987. When I bought them, ALL THREE came with a small bottle of silicone based chamber oil and the manuals all gave instructions on oiling- 2 -3 drops placed in the chamber port every 1000 shots.
    I found a 350M manual at Pyramid Air, & copied the relevant pages which are attached below.
I have shot all three of these rifles a LOT- many thousands of rounds. I sent the 36 & 45 in to the Umarex USA service center for warranty maintenance in 2000.
 The 36 and 45 didn’t actually fail, but they were definitely slowing down. Back then, warranty service cost $140 and covered replacement of the main spring, main piston seal, all other O-rings and seals, wearable bushings & washers, and shipping both ways. They came back feeling new on cocking & shooting like new.
Umarex sent back a very basic breakdown of what was worn, chronograph test results after service, and a card with recommended maintenance tips, which also included oiling the chamber. These rifles are 40+ years old & still going strong. The manufacturer and service company both recommend the service plan I’ve been using…

So- What has changed?

Do we know more about this than 25 years ago? Anyone do a side by side test of identical rifles- one lubed and one not?

 I’ve read and have been told,  that silicone chamber lube keeps the piston seal from drying out.

I don’t know what material the 36 and 45 originally had for a piston seal, but the 350M has a polymer main piston seal from what I understand, and the manual from it clearly states the same instructions I posted about chamber lube.

Here are the pages from the RWS 350M manual, screenshots from Pyramid Air’s website.

[splitbeing]

I stupidly followed outdated instructions to lube the rws through the transfer port with silicone based lube way back. Over the years, galling happened. I filed it down to smooth as best I could.

To lube an rws/diana, get a compressor or serviceable clamp, moly from arh for behind the piston seal and tail lip of the piston, black tar for the spring, and clear tar for pivots and such.

[splitbeing]

Also, shooting felt pellets on their own in the way you describe could break a spring.

[Roadworthy]

Your guns, your choice.  All three probably have synthetic piston seals.  The springs will get tired before the seals do in my experience.  If the gun is properly lubricated when assembled no further lubrication is necessary for the seal.  You should lube the mechanical parts such as the pivot and latch.  Your spring should have some lube so it slides freely.  If you choose to switch to the newer synthetic lubes such as Krytox be sure to remove the older moly lube.  It is a petroleum based lube incompatible with Krytox.  Plain molybdenum disulfide powder is fine with Krytox just not moly lube.

[DrGunner]

I appreciate the responses. So without coming out and saying it, you guys are basically telling me that RWS was dead wrong in their recommendations on how to properly perform maintenance/lubrication on their springer air rifles. I guess I must be incredibly lucky that nothing bad has happened. I’ve also gotten very lucky that I haven’t broken a spring by following their directions to fire RWS brand cleaning pellets through my barrels for all these years. Thank you for your input and advice.

DrGunner

[HectorMedina]

I appreciate the responses. So without coming out and saying it, you guys are basically telling me that RWS was dead wrong in their recommendations on how to properly perform maintenance/lubrication on their springer air rifles. I guess I must be incredibly lucky that nothing bad has happened. I’ve also gotten very lucky that I haven’t broken a spring by following their directions to fire RWS brand cleaning pellets through my barrels for all these years. Thank you for your input and advice.

DrGunner

Kevin;

First of all, welcome back to airgunning. Please don't take it the wrong way if what you hear here is not what you heard before. Times change. We all sincerely want more airgunners here, and we're usually well-laid back. This is a place where even HW fans tolerate DIANA fans (and vice-versa, LOL!)

Anyway, as a scientist (Scientia est potentia), you know that there are, usually, several ways to see/look at a phenomenon.
In this case, the distributor/wholesaler (RWS) had a way of looking at things. Said wholesaler is not anymore the current authorized wholesaler for the brand DIANA, that is made in Germany by a company that is called Mayer & Grammelspacher, that is now part of the L&O Group (proprietors of other prestige brands like Rigby, Mauser, Blaser, Minox, SIG, Sig-Sauer, and others).
The current importer/wholesaler/distributor is Blue Line Solutions. Who distribute a lot of firearms as well from German Sport Guns (also part of the L&O group).
In the early days of RWS importing DIANA rifles, they were severely criticized for having the guns sent from the factory "lubed". The dieseling, smoke and smell and noise, were severely criticized by the then "pundits". So they decided that the guns imported would be "dry" from the factory.
And, SO, they MADE the customers NEED to buy the lube kits.
If we are impolitely sincere, it is also an "American Mania" that all things need to be lubed every time they get used. While that may be true of old Timken bearings in the steam railroads,  . . . and some cars. It is no longer true in many aspects of life.

So, yes, things change.

DIANA started using synthetic seals in the 60's, almost at the same time that they were allowed to make rifled barrels after WW II.
The FIRST synthetic seals were a sad disappointment because the "chemist" that suggested Nylon for the seals could not imagine that inside the compression chamber of a spring-piston airgun temperatures can rise to 3,000° F and pressures to 2,000 PSI's Nylon did not fare well under those conditions. It crystalized and literally, disintegrated into almost dust.
DIANA took that failure to heart and started using a form of synthetic rubber, what we would call "silicone rubber" and is the material that, with little modifications is still being used today.
"Silicone Rubber" cannot dry.

Now, it has been demonstrated that dieseling in the compression chamber contributes between 10% and 25% of the power output of an airgun, and so, it was in the interest of the importer/wholesaler, to "keep the numbers up" to appeal to the average entry level shooter that thinks in terms of firearms, so, another reason to recommend lubing the insides.
And now, we know that for every dieseling shot an airgun takes, the spring goes through at least TWO, if not THREE, compression/distention cycles. Resulting in a short "active" life. Median lives of springs have moved from 2k-3k shots to 5k-7k shots for a factory spring and sometimes 30k shots for after market "tunes".
We also know that shooting 100 pellets per day puts more stress on the machine than shooting 30 pellets per day, even for the same number of total shots.

This is another difference that I need to point out. MOST of the frequent posters in here are persons that will shoot daily, and if you shoot 30-50 pellets a day, that translates into 9-11 thousand shots per year. For "us" reliability, consistency, longevity, and accuracy (in no particular order) are all more important than raw power.

There is NO "RIGHT" or "WRONG" way, to each his own.

As a professional airgunsmith I COULD tell you to follow the RWS instructions and keep my EMail handy  ;-) , but I choose to point out the differences in the "philosophies" and let each one decide what they want to do.

To close this post, the current wholesaler has instructed DIANA to ship all their guns "lubed" and we have had several users here that have taken objection to it.

We cannot make EVERYONE happy ALL the time, but we believe that information will make you free to choose what course of action you want to follow.

Again, Welcome! ; thanks for your continued use of DIANA airguns, keep well and shoot straight!






HM

[DrGunner]

I appreciate the responses. So without coming out and saying it, you guys are basically telling me that RWS was dead wrong in their recommendations on how to properly perform maintenance/lubrication on their springer air rifles. I guess I must be incredibly lucky that nothing bad has happened. I’ve also gotten very lucky that I haven’t broken a spring by following their directions to fire RWS brand cleaning pellets through my barrels for all these years. Thank you for your input and advice.

DrGunner

Kevin;

First of all, welcome back to airgunning. Please don't take it the wrong way if what you hear here is not what you heard before. Times change. We all sincerely want more airgunners here, and we're usually well-laid back. This is a place where even HW fans tolerate DIANA fans (and vice-versa, LOL!)

Anyway, as a scientist (Scientia est potentia), you know that there are, usually, several ways to see/look at a phenomenon.
In this case, the distributor/wholesaler (RWS) had a way of looking at things. Said wholesaler is not anymore the current authorized wholesaler for the brand DIANA, that is made in Germany by a company that is called Mayer & Grammelspacher, that is now part of the L&O Group (proprietors of other prestige brands like Rigby, Mauser, Blaser, Minox, SIG, Sig-Sauer, and others).
The current importer/wholesaler/distributor is Blue Line Solutions. Who distribute a lot of firearms as well from German Sport Guns (also part of the L&O group).
In the early days of RWS importing DIANA rifles, they were severely criticized for having the guns sent from the factory "lubed". The dieseling, smoke and smell and noise, were severely criticized by the then "pundits". So they decided that the guns imported would be "dry" from the factory.
And, SO, they MADE the customers NEED to buy the lube kits.
If we are impolitely sincere, it is also an "American Mania" that all things need to be lubed every time they get used. While that may be true of old Timken bearings in the steam railroads,  . . . and some cars. It is no longer true in many aspects of life.

So, yes, things change.

DIANA started using synthetic seals in the 60's, almost at the same time that they were allowed to make rifled barrels after WW II.
The FIRST synthetic seals were a sad disappointment because the "chemist" that suggested Nylon for the seals could not imagine that inside the compression chamber of a spring-piston airgun temperatures can rise to 3,000° F and pressures to 2,000 PSI's Nylon did not fare well under those conditions. It crystalized and literally, disintegrated into almost dust.
DIANA took that failure to heart and started using a form of synthetic rubber, what we would call "silicone rubber" and is the material that, with little modifications is still being used today.
"Silicone Rubber" cannot dry.

Now, it has been demonstrated that dieseling in the compression chamber contributes between 10% and 25% of the power output of an airgun, and so, it was in the interest of the importer/wholesaler, to "keep the numbers up" to appeal to the average entry level shooter that thinks in terms of firearms, so, another reason to recommend lubing the insides.
And now, we know that for every dieseling shot an airgun takes, the spring goes through at least TWO, if not THREE, compression/distention cycles. Resulting in a short "active" life. Median lives of springs have moved from 2k-3k shots to 5k-7k shots for a factory spring and sometimes 30k shots for after market "tunes".
We also know that shooting 100 pellets per day puts more stress on the machine than shooting 30 pellets per day, even for the same number of total shots.

This is another difference that I need to point out. MOST of the frequent posters in here are persons that will shoot daily, and if you shoot 30-50 pellets a day, that translates into 9-11 thousand shots per year. For "us" reliability, consistency, longevity, and accuracy (in no particular order) are all more important than raw power.

There is NO "RIGHT" or "WRONG" way, to each his own.

As a professional airgunsmith I COULD tell you to follow the RWS instructions and keep my EMail handy  ;-) , but I choose to point out the differences in the "philosophies" and let each one decide what they want to do.

To close this post, the current wholesaler has instructed DIANA to ship all their guns "lubed" and we have had several users here that have taken objection to it.

We cannot make EVERYONE happy ALL the time, but we believe that information will make you free to choose what course of action you want to follow.

Again, Welcome! ; thanks for your continued use of DIANA airguns, keep well and shoot straight!






HM

WOW !!! Now THATS The type of answer that I was hoping to hear. Thank you very much for educating me with the specifics on the mechanics, learning curve, and changes in thinking. I got to say, “impolitely sincere” is a description that I will be poaching and taking forward on other forums. I am well aware of how some communities can come off as condescending without meaning to be so, given the current state of knowledge and its application, I was woefully behind the times and I sincerely thank you and others for educating me. I am certainly no stranger to people being brutally honest, I administrate a rather large online shooting forum myself.

Oh- and my sig line is Latin

“Knowledge is Power.”

With appreciation-

DrGunner

[splitbeing]

Tell us about your shooting experiences too, doc!  Scientia potentia est sed non satis scire. Salve!

[DrGunner]

Tell us about your shooting experiences too, doc!  Scientia potentia est sed non satis scire. Salve!

.

Tell us about your shooting experiences too, doc!  Scientia potentia est sed non satis scire. Salve!

Oh gosh, that would take forever. If it goes bang, I like it. I have a great team of 10 moderators at RimfireCentral.com.
we have about 200,000 members posting over 1000 posts per day and adding about 60 threads per day so it keeps me busy, my post count over there is 15,000+

Here are photos of my airguns:

[DrGunner]

[splitbeing]

He's got an airgun arsenal, folks!

Any get shot more than others? Where are your preferences lately shootingwise or tinkering?

[DrGunner]

It’s split about equal between springers & PCP. My Daystate Regal is perfect for quiet backyard NRA smallbore silhouette practice. The springers are in a closet & are reached for more, but shot less if that makes sense. I will grab a springer when I want to shoot for 10 or 20 minutes without the hassle of pulling out all the gear. When I’m going to shoot a real string, I take out one or more of the PCP‘s.

[splitbeing]

I hear ya. The springer is self-contained... no extras needed.  Grab and go shoot!  Speaking of lubes, sometimes they smell real good when shot too.

[Toxylon]

FWIW, the 350 Mag was introduced in 2000, or some 13 years after 1987.

[HectorMedina]

WOW !!! Now THATS The type of answer that I was hoping to hear. Thank you very much for educating me with the specifics on the mechanics, learning curve, and changes in thinking. I got to say, “impolitely sincere” is a description that I will be poaching and taking forward on other forums. I am well aware of how some communities can come off as condescending without meaning to be so, given the current state of knowledge and its application, I was woefully behind the times and I sincerely thank you and others for educating me. I am certainly no stranger to people being brutally honest, I administrate a rather large online shooting forum myself.

Oh- and my sig line is Latin

“Knowledge is Power.”

With appreciation-

DrGunner

Glad to have been of service.
And thanks for your continued support of the brotherhood of shooters.

Keep well and shoot straight!




HM

[DrGunner]

FWIW, the 350 Mag was introduced in 2000, or some 13 years after 1987.

You’re right! I have a file folder full of original receipts… I bought my 350 a few years after I moved to my current house, which was in 1997. I have receipts from 1997 and 2002. I’m thinking the ‘97 receipt is from a model 48 that I sold, and the 2002 is from the 350M. It’s a beast!
Heavy, but very well made and accurate.