Crosman 362 .177 project

[avator]

You could put it on the hammer end of the spring.

[Spooner]

You could put it on the hammer end of the spring.

I never thought of that... I think I will do that and put my Brass on the adjuster end. Thanks! 

[Nukall856]

Man,
 Why didn't I ever receive a Green Booger with any of my C362s? I've read of it but never seen one. Spooner. You are on the path to creating a very nice Multipump.177 and should be the highest power Multipump at 10 pumps.
 I think Cro sman should have used a stronger hammerspring and they could have been rated for 10 pumps. But 8 pumps is good in the C362. I know I got around 16 FPE with 10 pumps and heavy pellets in .22.
 I really like the MAP trigger group you have on there. Very nice.
 I would like to make a C367x24" but for now Ill have to wait for awhile as funds are limited  to where a venture of $240+ is abit out of reach, that will change soon.
Excellent Work Spooner


NVak

[Spooner]

Man,
 Why didn't I ever receive a Green Booger with any of my C362s? I've read of it but never seen one. Spooner. You are on the path to creating a very nice Multipump.177 and should be the highest power Multipump at 10 pumps.
 I think Cro sman should have used a stronger hammerspring and they could have been rated for 10 pumps. But 8 pumps is good in the C362. I know I got around 16 FPE with 10 pumps and heavy pellets in .22.
 I really like the MAP trigger group you have on there. Very nice.
 I would like to make a C367x24" but for now Ill have to wait for awhile as funds are limited  to where a venture of $240+ is abit out of reach, that will change soon.
Excellent Work Spooner

NVak

Thank you for the kind remarks. 

The green booger is a mystery. No one really knows why Crosman put it in there as it really serves no purpose. On the original run, some found it in there and some didn't. My first run 362 is #806 and it had it in there. I took Bill's advice and moved it to the hammer end of the spring. The truth is, I just wanted it in there for nostalgia. One day, when I pass my guns to my son and he has to do a reseal, he will have no idea what it is or why it's there, lol.

Hammer springs can be worked around. I tried a longer/stronger spring but it was binding, so I put the original back in. Honestly, with the hammer spring adjuster and a lighter valve spring, a stronger hammer spring is not needed. I can dial in whatever strength I need with the adjuster.

Oh Yes... the MAP trigger is a very nice trigger group, but it is not cheap. I also had to locate, drill, and tap the front hole for the stock mount bolt. Not a big deal to do, but it had to be done to use it. I originally bought it for my first 362 but did not like how it felt, so I reworked the original trigger, added the three adjustment screws, and ended up with a very smooth and light pull trigger. I reworked the MAP trigger later on, and got it smoothed out. This is the perfect build for it.

With regard to power. This Valve Ron made is very impressive. A true work of art really. The combination of low volume and zero headspace will allow this valve to build higher pressure in fewer pumps than the normal low volume valves I put together. I have no idea what to expect but I suspect that my goal of 500 fps in three pumps is more than achievable, if not in two pumps instead. I will Chrony it up to 10, but once I have those results to share... it will never go above whatever it takes to reach 500 fps again. The risk with what I am doing is the pump linkage. Some of us talked about this in the beginning, and most agree that the pump linkage just can't take prolonged use at higher pumps using an FT setup, especially one that is lower volume, without cracking or bending it. I think Ron solved that concern by modifying a 760 pump linkage to work in his 362, but I would not be able to do something like that. I don't need to anyway as my goal is to reach my target fps with as few pumps as possible. The 24" barrel will also help add a little fps. About 10 fps for every inch of barrel over whatever the stock length is according to folks here... so about an extra 30 fps just for the barrel.

It will be interesting most definitely. If USPS will quit delaying my barrel delivery, I can get this show on the road, lol. 

[Psipumper]

The pump linkage of the 362 is strong. I don’t think it would bend. It is the same one used for the 392,  the link is attached in a different point on the pump arm. The extra hole in the pump arm is the 392 position for the link.
Over pumping and higher pressure will push the valve rearwards like a 1377 does without pinning the valve.

[Spooner]

The pump linkage of the 362 is strong. I don’t think it would bend. It is the same one used for the 392,  the link is attached in a different point on the pump arm. The extra hole in the pump arm is the 392 position for the link.
Over pumping and higher pressure will push the valve rearwards like a 1377 does without pinning the valve.

It may or may not be ok with prolonged use at higher pumps, not sure? I can tell you that when I reach 6 pumps with this valve/piston setup... it is very hard to close. My original FT valve for this build got really hard at 7 pumps. It is not a concern though, as I never need to go that far again, once I have the chrony work done. 

I decided not to do any top valve pinning. Ron made this valve with a recess just deep enough for the trigger screw to secure it in place. I used an 8-32 x 1/2" set screw to pin it tight from the trigger frame screw hole position on the pump tube, which is threaded on mine, then used an 8-32 nut to mount the trigger assembly once the valve was secured. Ron ported the Valve TP hole for use with ice make tubing. Once the tubing is in, it will add a little more security for the valve position. Because this is a "Zero Headspace" valve, you can't pin it in the usual way you would do on a normal FT valve. The check valve seats all the way to the end of the valve making the wall thickness of the valve wall only thick enough in that area for a just enough depth to seat a screw just below it's surface. It is brass though, and the set screw seated tightly will hold it in place fine. 

[Psipumper]

You should be good without pinning the valve. Brass is much better than aluminum valve  to hold against the tube stamped detent upon rearwards pressure.
Since you aren’t going to push the gun to higher power levels much.
I haven’t had any concerns with my pump arm bending or even feeling close to bending in my 362 at 23 fpe levels. The pump effort is much lower than what I have pushed in my 392.
Yours should easily handle 700 fps in .177 or 8 pumps.
Following along with your build. Looking good. Is a brass valve something I can order from Crosman ?  I think I am going to try a .25 caliber conversion and the brass valve would be nice.

[Spooner]

You should be good without pinning the valve. Brass is much better than aluminum valve  to hold against the tube stamped detent upon rearwards pressure.
Since you aren’t going to push the gun to higher power levels much.
I haven’t had any concerns with my pump arm bending or even feeling close to bending in my 362 at 23 fpe levels. The pump effort is much lower than what I have pushed in my 392.
Yours should easily handle 700 fps in .177 or 8 pumps.
Following along with your build. Looking good. Is a brass valve something I can order from Crosman ?  I think I am going to try a .25 caliber conversion and the brass valve would be nice.

With the way Ron made this valve and the way he intended for it to be installed, essentially, it is pinned. It is just pinned without needing a second contact point. 

I honestly don't think Crosman makes brass valves for any gun anymore, but I might be wrong on that? Nowadays, brass valves come from people who have the machining skills to make them, like Ron. I have seen them on rare occasion on eBay, but very rarely. The only places I can even think of who have the ability to do them are David at Alchemy Airwerks, or Nick at Alliance Hobby. There might be others that someone here is aware of.

It looks like I have a long wait ahead of me before I can get to the chrony stage of this. USPS has delayed my barrel by a week now and it still hasn't started moving from its' last location. I am going to give them a few more days then will have to go to the post office and ask them for answers.

[Tack Driver 10]

As the old valve saying goes, "When in doubt pin it."
I pin all my valves to the tube because I like to over build my guns.
My 3622 PCP and 362 with aluminum valves were not initially pinned.
The 3622 is good to 2K psi but I added 3 Prod screws to the back part of the valve.

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=213423.msg156522876#msg156522876

With a cup seal the soft rubber acts like a cushion.
With a FT excessive cam over can push the valve back.
Just need to exercise restraint and common sense, less is more.

Brass valves are getting more difficult to find but EBay has them fairly often.
Do a search on Crosman valve and there are 3 there now for about $20 a copy.
I like the old 760 valves as the TP is already counterbored.

Up until a few years ago Crosman had the old 760 brass valve fronts for $1.66. (p/n (130B005)
Each time I made an order I'd get 10 and add them to my collection.
At one time I had over 30 of them but sadly many of them have given their life in the name of science....LOL
Looks like JG bought a bunch and now they're about $15 delivered on Ebay. (capitalism, gotta love it)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154854492728?itmmeta=01J2RTR1TDQ5EMW4Z2XM405E45&hash=item240e0c0a38:g:22IAAOSwZXZiDp4k&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4LCmNLzAoM6WmjsL6EjcgjrB%2FX2LgAtjvczAiRxRS3UsUFXaS62VxXTtwzrVGQ6UPjkN0IHsTFYPeK3T2MJfgc0KOGGcgShjqZ4EOt6fV%2FfH%2F2qOU%2FlMXBDa3ZOb%2Br%2BICB5FDlhjOMKFYDwEzM09tYXRiAtLDQg1AOjEHDzwknkA5aZBF9VejVeFfsB6Iu0Vznr8pwmn6ITH8eb0rikRCw2JJFN6b7Kz%2B7uxEF1%2F25NgHBWucHqwGEzLaeCmfz9ZlhC8hIWaS1j8%2Bb%2FKqAsgMog%2BhvpMI5T%2BcylhIhzqC7JG%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6Sd4JqWZA

[Spooner]

After conversation with Ron, I sent the pump tube and valve to him to be properly pinned. I have done them before and made occasional mistakes. This valve is unique, and I was not comfortable with doing a rear pin job on it. Better safe than sorry. 

Thank you Ron! 

Oh, yeah... the barrel suddenly showed up from its' world tour USPS adventure yesterday. 

[Spooner]

more progress...

The hammer is a modified 760 hammer with spring guide done by Tack Driver 10. This hammer is SWEET! No binding, no cocking issues. Ron filled the center portion of the hammer with JB weld then machined it to match the hammer diameter. He also added Derlin Glide dots. The hammer is lighter than the 362 hammer and is VERY smooth! And yes... I put the green booger in this one too. 


Ron did the valve pinning using an Mrod screw on each side of the tube threaded into the rear section of the valve. This valve ain't going nowhere!

Pumped it up to 10 pumps, no retained air.

More progress to come... 

[Spooner]

Two additional barrel set screws on each side of the breach done by Ron.


Ron also counterbored the barrel port to allow for proper ice make tube matching and fit. I used RTV on both ends to reduce the possibility of potential leaks.

The Gun is now back together except for the LDC. I will let the RTV set until tomorrow. If the seals pass the tissue test, I hope to do Chronies on it tomorrow. 

[Spooner]

Chrony results are in...

string 1                       string 2
1. 339 / 1.9                 1. 340 / 1.9
2. 480 / 3.8                 2. 485 / 3.9
3. 589 / 5.7                 3. 608 / 6.1
4. 687 / 7.7                 4. 694 / 7.9
5. 761 / 9.5                 5. 772 / 9.8
6. 814 / 10.9               6. 821 / 11.1
7. 854 / 12.0               7. 858 / 12.1
8. 881 / 12.8               8. 888 / 13.0

Accuracy testing will be a couple of days. I will mount the scope this evening and if the rain holds off, put the laser bore in it and set it on paper at 25 yards. I need to take a break and enjoy the results for just a bit. 

I want to give a shout out to Tack Driver 10 in great appreciation. Ron custom made and machined so many components for this project and without them, these results would not have been possible. He never asked for a single thing in return, and I am truly grateful for the craftsmanship and expertise he offered in making / modifying the various parts for this rifle. It is essentially, his build... I simply assembled it. 

Accuracy updates coming soon! 

[Tack Driver 10]

Those velocity results are excellent.
Close to 500 FPS with 2 pumps and 600 FPS with 3 pumps is right where we wanted.
You could try heavier pellets like the JSB/FX 10.3 and 13.4 grain pellets.
The 13.4 pellets would put you close to 16 FPE at 8 pumps.
Those are what I use in my 3622 PCP.

I think you used the stock valve stem in this test?
The Mrod stem (p/n 1700-140, $2.10) will release a lot easier/faster especially at high pressure.
It would allow you to use a lighter hammer spring and might get you some more power.

The Mrod stem is made from a harder material so can be difficult to initially seal. (so I'm told)
Take the stock valve with an Mrod stem installed and dunk it in a cup very hot water.
A cup of water heated in the microwave to boiling works good.
Swizzle the tail end of the valve in it for about a minute and let it cool.
Nothing like an invigorating bath in scalding hot water to convince it to conform....LOL
That's how I set the seal on this one.

[Spooner]

Oh yes Ron... I am very happy with these results! 

No need to go any farther with power. It is more than I could have hoped for, and I can't thank you enough for your help with this! 

My plan is Monday morning for accuracy testing. I am going to go with three pumps and use JSB Stratton 8.26gr pointed pellets to start with. Those are very accurate in the Disco barrel you sent me for the Long Tom project, and it will slow the FPS down a little below 600, which works for me. 

If the JSB's don't pan out, I have quite a few other types of pellets I can try.

[Spooner]

Here is the finished product  .

The scope is a CenterPoint 3-12x44

[Psipumper]

That turned out great. Making some  power for sure right from the first pump. Very skillfully done on both of your parts.

[Nukall856]

Spooner,
 Wow those are very good #s! Excellent Work Spooner and Tack Driver 10
 Making me want to move some parts around to have a C367x18" again. Idk I just might order a .177x24". Those numbers look very fun.

NVak

[Spooner]

Spooner,
 Wow those are very good #s! Excellent Work Spooner and Tack Driver 10
 Making me want to move some parts around to have a C367x18" again. Idk I just might order a .177x24". Those numbers look very fun.

NVak

That turned out great. Making some  power for sure right from the first pump. Very skillfully done on both of your parts.

Thank you both . This was a fun project and I am glad I finally joined the 367 club. 

[Spooner]

The moment I always dread in a new project is thankfully over... Accuracy.



Target set at 25 yards. I ended up with the JSB Stratton pointed pellets. Those are 8.26gr and gave 580 FPS / 5.5 FPE at 3 pumps, so a little slower than the Crosman Super Points which is what I hoped for. This will work out well for my needs. Not quite LW accuracy, but very close. Except for a few shots, all others were either within 1/2", or well within that. Some were hole in hole, some were edge on edge. The few that were outside of that, were not outside by very much. I am still getting use to this MAP trigger, which takes a little more pressure than I am used to, and I know I pulled some shots, but I will settle in with it soon enough. 

I am very happy with this! This project is a wrap!