My gas ram is now a pfffttt...

[roj]

I haven't used the Hatsun 87 Vortex QE much in the last few years.  It's six or seven years old now.  This morning I'm getting nothing more than a pffftttt, so weak that it won't even eject the pellet.  Is this a normal issue with gas rams as they get a little older?  Is there a solution?

[farrlarr]

This should get you started on rebuilding the ram

             https://airgunwarriors.com/community/airgun-talk/rebuilding-a-hatsan-vortex-gas-ram/

This should help if you decide on replacement

              https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=198930.0

Both of these came from a quick Google search.  There is probably a lot  more information out there.

[Ronno6]

The Vortex gas springs can be rebuilt.
The O-rings in the gland (where the rem exits) dry out and no longer seal.

Do you have a spring compressor?
Do you have the means to precharge the spring after resealing?
Hi pressure compressor, scuba tank or hand pump  with the correct fittibg.

I am not familiar with the Model 87.
If your spring can be recharged after thr rifle is assembled, you would not need a spring compressor.

[roj]

Thanks for the links and the helpful suggestions.  I should have done a search.  I just didn't think it would be so common.  No, I'm not equipped (mechanically or mentally) for a rebuild.  I was never all that crazy about the gun anyway.  I guess it's time to shop for a new, quiet .22.

[mikeyb]

NOT a GAS RAM.

Vortex are AIR SPRINGS. IME they can LEAK a lot! I have 5 waiting to be resealed/rebuilt.
Factory SEALED Nitrogen Gas filled GAS SPRINGS cannot be rebuilt/repaired unless you have very special skills and equipment.

I have many COIL SPRING rifles with NO (zero) broken springs so far. I have many GAS SPRING rifles with NO (zero) leaks so far. I have many Vortex AIR SPRING rifles (specific to Hatsan rifles) with 5 (five) failures to date.  When I really NEED a reliable springer for emergency pest elimination I've learned to NOT grab one of my Vortex rifles :-(

I am a HUGE Hatsan FAN but no longer have any love for their leak-prone Vortex AIR SPRINGS.

[roj]

"Not a gas ram."

Now THAT'S interesting.  A search for that has turned up nada.  If there is a link to more info, I'd love to read more about it.

If you wouldn't mind weighing in on this...  I was leaning toward the Gamo Swarm Fusion Gen3.  Very quiet and LIGHTER!  How is it different than the Hatsun Vortex, and would the Gamo have the same kind of long term issue?

[Ronno6]

The Vortex is indeed an Air Spring.
I would not hesitate to call it a "Gas spring" (after all, isn't air a gas??)

Tupically gas springs are filled with nitrogen, which has a larger mollecule than that of air, hence
it is much less apt to leak.
This is why nitrogen is used in airplane tires and sometines new car tires.

I have no history with the Gamo, so I cannot offer an opinion.
I woud suggest you avoid Umarex/Ruger gas spring rifles, as they typically do NOT support them with parts, even breech seals!

[farrlarr]

NOT a GAS RAM.

Vortex are AIR SPRINGS. IME they can LEAK a lot! I have 5 waiting to be resealed/rebuilt.
Factory SEALED Nitrogen Gas filled GAS SPRINGS cannot be rebuilt/repaired unless you have very special skills and equipment.

I have many COIL SPRING rifles with NO (zero) broken springs so far. I have many GAS SPRING rifles with NO (zero) leaks so far. I have many Vortex AIR SPRING rifles (specific to Hatsan rifles) with 5 (five) failures to date.  When I really NEED a reliable springer for emergency pest elimination I've learned to NOT grab one of my Vortex rifles :-(

I am a HUGE Hatsan FAN but no longer have any love for their leak-prone Vortex AIR SPRINGS.

With the exception of "COIL SPRING" I was under the impression that all of the other terms used in your post were interchangeable.  Please define/explain the differences between "GAS RAM", "AIR SPRING" and "GAS SPRING".

[Ronno6]

NOT a GAS RAM.

Vortex are AIR SPRINGS. IME they can LEAK a lot! I have 5 waiting to be resealed/rebuilt.
Factory SEALED Nitrogen Gas filled GAS SPRINGS cannot be rebuilt/repaired unless you have very special skills and equipment.

I have many COIL SPRING rifles with NO (zero) broken springs so far. I have many GAS SPRING rifles with NO (zero) leaks so far. I have many Vortex AIR SPRING rifles (specific to Hatsan rifles) with 5 (five) failures to date.  When I really NEED a reliable springer for emergency pest elimination I've learned to NOT grab one of my Vortex rifles :-(

I am a HUGE Hatsan FAN but no longer have any love for their leak-prone Vortex AIR SPRINGS.

With the exception of "COIL SPRING" I was under the impression that all of the other terms used in your post were interchangeable.  Please define/explain the differences between "GAS RAM", "AIR SPRING" and "GAS SPRING".

The intent will be conveyed; only the specifics differ.......
If you are concerned with precision and accuracy in terminology, the differentioatio becomes important.

The Hatsan Vortex ia an "Air Spring" as the charging media is, indeed, air.
Crosman employs the NP or "Nitro Piston" whci is marketing jargon for a Nitrogen Charged Gas Spring....
(I can just "see" mieyb cringe every time he reads or hears that term....)

My fingers wear out typing all that, so...............

[farrlarr]

So where does GAS RAM fit in all this?

And does it really make a major difference whether the power plant is filled with air (78% nitrogen) and nitrogen (presumably 100%)?

[Robert 5mm]

I only have one Hatsan - 1000 Striker .25 Vortex Gas Piston

I read somewhere to store Hatsan "Air Spring" rifles with barrel pointed down to have the keep inner spring oil on barrel end.

I do this about half the time. I do not really know if it helps or not.

[mikeyb]

I prefer to use scientific/engineering terms over marketing/advertising terms.

I don't know who started using GAS RAM for spring-piston style air rifles but it is an over-hyped marketing term. Ron is correct, "GAS RAM" makes me :-(
The term "piston" when referring to air/gas springs also makes me :-(
There is only ONE piston in a spring-piston air rifle and it is not the spring. The "spring" is either a coiled steel wire spring or a compressed air/gas spring.

"Gas Springs"
UMAREX - TNT = Turbo Nitrogen Technology
UMAREX - ReAxis = Stronger TNT and/or TNT flipped for body inside piston(?)
GAMO - IGT = Inert Gas Technology
Crosman - NP = Nitro Piston :-(

All these buzzwords "sound cool" and there are several marketing claims that air/gas springs are BETTER than coil springs. The ONLY claim that I found true so far is that air/gas spring rifles shoot smoother, LIKE a tuned coil spring rifle, right out of the box. No tuning needed. I have many coil spring rifles that shoot "just like" their air/gas spring siblings AFTER adding a fitted spring guide and some GOOD quality lube (not the anti-rust storage grease manufacturers use).

Gas Springs (TNT,NP, etc.) are filled with compressed dry nitrogen. There is basically no measurable performance difference when compared to an Air Spring (Hatsan Vortex) containing 78% nitrogen.

More specifically:

    Nitrogen (78%)
    Oxygen (21%)
    Carbon dioxide (0.04%)
    Argon (0.93%)
    Trace amounts of helium, neon, methane, hydrogen and water vapor.

One valid reason to use dry nitrogen is to eliminate oxygen and trace water vapor. The oxygen can degrade seals over time and the moisture may corrode metals. This is usually a long-term concern. Other reasons for using dry nitrogen over air are IMO just more marketing/sales hype.

DIE Springs used in industrial manufacturing are stout steel coil springs or dry nitrogen gas springs. The gas die springs can usually be adjusted by changing the pressure using special fittings and a compressed nitrogen tank. The shaft SEAL is usually a tough polymer cup seal which has a LONG service life. The gas die springs are built stronger (= larger, too large to fit inside most air rifles) and are usually MUCH more expensive than the cheap gas springs used in air rifles.

I believe the shaft seals used in air rifle gas springs are also cup seals. I have NOT cut one open to verify but it would explain why I have not had any air rifle gas springs fail so far.

I HAVE cut open an OLD=FAILED gas lift strut and IT had a cup seal for the shaft. The strut finally got "weak" after 15 years of outside exposure lift-gate service. Pretty good service life IMO!

The Hatsan Vortex air spring uses common (very low cost) o-rings for its shaft seals. These will distort (flatten) and crosslink (become hard and brittle) over time. The o-rings work but they don't have the same reliability and long service life as a polymer cup seal. I believe this is why I now have (5) leaky Vortex air springs in my repair bin.

Folks are free to use whatever terms they prefer :-)

[roj]

So, given mikeyb's explanation of the various uses and misuses of the whole "gas/air" terminology and corresponding supporting parts, we should be able to definitively rate the manufacturers and their products according to several crucial factors in the potential life and performance of the guns.

For instance, shouldn't Hatsun be rated LAST, considering the fact that the 87 Vortex QE failed after just six (or even seven) years?

[Ronno6]

I have replaced failed Vortex power units (how's THAT !?) using Crosman NP units and they perform quite well.
It gets a little complicated with some of Hatsan's base block designs.....
I have converted several Umarex guns to coil spring, as their air springs tend to be unavailable from them and have a longer stroke than anybody elses....

But, since I have learned how to rebuild the Vortex units, that is the way I go.

[farrlarr]

I prefer to use scientific/engineering terms over marketing/advertising terms.

Folks are free to use whatever terms they prefer :-)

Thanks for the explanation!  That clears things up quite nicely.

Variations in use of terminology, without explanations of the variation, confuse the issue (whatever the issue may be).