We all love German springers, but...

[triggerfest]

Just went to the Diana and Weihrauch Website to view their current offerings:

Two things seem pretty obvious:
- Diana is struggling to find their brand - (look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two ).
- Their 5 best guns don't even try to compete with Weihrauch (D54, D460, D48, D34 and D350).

The Diana XR200 is likely going to be their latest PCP failure ...........

The only reason they stay alive is their non-Weihrauch (Springer) qualities (power and low recoil in side levers).

If they didn't go after these market segments they'd be out of business.

Do you have any evidence this statement of Diana rifles that "look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two"? You also stated Diana outsells HW and were asked for evidence for that and have yet to provide that. It is time to back statements with evidence.

I've not been able to access this information.
- Hector may have access.

However, go on-line with AOA and select "Spring Piston Airguns".  They have 2 pages of Springer models.
The first page only includes Weihrauch guns.  Page 2 has a few Diana's at the bottom of the page.

Takeaways:
- AOA would be stupid from a Marketing stand point, if they didn't list their best sellers on the first page .
- Almost all Weihrauch offerings on Page 1 are Pre-Order (aka sold out) -> and require a deposit.
- All Weihrauch models except the HW30S cost the same of more than all Diana offerings, except the D54.
- Every Diana Airgun offering is in stock
- Diana can't sell their more powerful air guns .... even at prices lower than almost all Weihrauch models.

This does not portray Diana as a flourishing business.

This, while not reflecting actual sales numbers, does suggest Diana is becoming irrelevant in the World of Airguns.   
 

,,,,or Diana does better supply chain management LOL 

[HectorMedina]

Just went to the Diana and Weihrauch Website to view their current offerings:

Two things seem pretty obvious:
- Diana is struggling to find their brand - (look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two ).
- Their 5 best guns don't even try to compete with Weihrauch (D54, D460, D48, D34 and D350).

The Diana XR200 is likely going to be their latest PCP failure ...........

The only reason they stay alive is their non-Weihrauch (Springer) qualities (power and low recoil in side levers).

If they didn't go after these market segments they'd be out of business.

Do you have any evidence this statement of Diana rifles that "look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two"? You also stated Diana outsells HW and were asked for evidence for that and have yet to provide that. It is time to back statements with evidence.

I've not been able to access this information.
- Hector may have access.

However, go on-line with AOA and select "Spring Piston Airguns".  They have 2 pages of Springer models.
The first page only includes Weihrauch guns.  Page 2 has a few Diana's at the bottom of the page.

Takeaways:
- AOA would be stupid from a Marketing stand point, if they didn't list their best sellers on the first page .
- Almost all Weihrauch offerings on Page 1 are Pre-Order (aka sold out) -> and require a deposit.
- All Weihrauch models except the HW30S cost the same of more than all Diana offerings, except the D54.
- Every Diana Airgun offering is in stock
- Diana can't sell their more powerful air guns .... even at prices lower than almost all Weihrauch models.

This does not portray Diana as a flourishing business.

This, while not reflecting actual sales numbers, does suggest Diana is becoming irrelevant in the World of Airguns.   
 

I am only answering this because the devil was invoked. You know, Dracula cannot enter a house without being invited.... >:-)

OK, hard facts:

Overall, WORLDWIDE, DIANA sells AS MANY airguns as HW.
Many of the best sellers worldwide are precisely the guns that are deplored here (synthetic stocks and Chinese origin offerings). Not everyone is a "connoisseur". MOST people out there, struggle to get the equivalent of $300 for a common airgun. Prices worldwide are horribly high. And where they are not too high, laws are stupidly complicated.
So, this forum's specialists makeup a VERY narrow slice of the worldwide market; and it is DEFINITELY NOT the defining driver.
Sorry to burst your bubble.

When we take into account the other sales under the DIANA brand that are NOT airguns, then situation is even more dramatic, DIANA as a MAKER sells twice as much as HW.

Will some models disappear? For sure! Which ones? no one knows. The overall sales for three successive years define that. The MARKET will speak and our opinion is worth less than $0.02

Is AoA silly?  yes. SEVERAL times, for the last 20 years, the head of the company has voiced openly that "(He/AoA) will get everyone out of the airgun business in the US and will be the sole mayor player." So, I really do not put much store in AoA. I'ld rather buy from Krale than from AoA.
Does AoA strategy plays into DIANA sales?  Not much, they are not the MAIN buyer in the USA.
The US sales strategy and logistics is not defined by DIANA, it is decided by BLS, who also decides all other policies in relation to the attention and service that the market gets.
Good, Bad, or Indifferent, that is the reality. And it is like that by contract agreed to by BOTH sides.
Neither BLS can impose conditions (because his main business is all the distribution of GSG made guns), nor DIANA can impose conditions because there are other brands in the group that also have "pull".

So, predictions apart, I do need to say that once someone starts posting "doubtful" numbers/figures/statistics as facts, and not as his/her own personal perceptions, my interest is lost.

Sadly, we Americans have a penchant towards "brand loyalty" (just see how many products have a generic name that corresponds to a brand), and "tooting our horns", when the horns aren't even ours to toot.
Just start a Chevy vs Ford discussion and see then how many actually hold/held shares of those two (once) publicly traded companies.

Even I think that management at Germany could be doing a better job with the airguns side, but do remember that DIANA (M&G) is no longer family owned and is now a part of a BIG group, whose MAIN business is basically geared towards Military hardware and only as "sidelines" do they have sport shooting equipment.
The SAME group that will outfit the US armed forces for handguns will also, in the near future outfit the army with their next combat weapon. It will take YEARS to move everyone over and BILLIONS of dollars spent by many countries, but it will happen. In the environment of the group, discussing a few millions of sales for airguns is the same as someone telling you off for having a Starbucks coffee instead of a Horton's. In few words, it is "CHUMP CHANGE". Within a large group, remember the Golden Rule ("He who gets the Gold, also gets to Rule").
I have already written that, for spring-piston airguns, "the writing is on the wall" and that it is our challenge and mission to educate the next generation of spring shooters. That has been my mission for the last 13 years and the Spring-Piston USA FT Team has placed well many times, coming out champions twice at the World's. Hopefully that example and those new shooters (mostly between 25 and 45), will generate interest in spring-piston airguns.

Do not ask what Spring-Piston shooting is doing for you, ask: What are YOU doing?

And THIS is my parting thought on this matter: Technical discussions about what is better for a given airgunning task are always useful for anyone that wants to read them (DIANA included).
Statement of preference for "shiny bangles" is also useful.

Predictions about what is going to be discontinued or "gone" are useless and drive a wedge between people who like similar stuff and should be working together.

JMHO. Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

[Mark 611]

Hector, first off, I mean no disrespect to you in anyway, we all know where your loyalty is. That's with DIANA air guns, and there's nothing wrong with that, my brother sold you a rifle awhile back and you told him you were the face of DIANA! my brother told me that's funny I don't see his face on the box! I do not have brand loyalty! I am a consumer; I do this just for fun! I have no stake in any of the air gun industry! only my experiences! in adult air guns that spans about 20yrs, to date, my reality is use and ownership, from Chinese air rifles to the upper hi end of air guns that have been available here in the U.S. as I have stated in my posts along with other folks here, who are consumers and what we see from owning different manufactures offerings, we know what we see when we tune them, or the weak and strong points of different manufactures offerings, we know what the pros and cons are, and we know what we get for our money! again it not about brand loyalty it's what I get for my money! YMMV

[triggerfest]

High end [German] airguns ?

Then we talk Anschütz-, Feinwerkbau- and Walther PCPs.

I've ever had the pleasure to shoot the Anschütz 9015 from someone (according to Krale the most accurate airgun out there - and I can humbly concur that) and the Walther LG 300 XT.

These PCPs are accurate out of the box, no tweaking and tuning needed. Pure German engineering at its best. Shooting these PCPs, you will start to realize that 'high end' springers like Diana and our well adored Weihrauchs are just torturing tools for the user of it.

Now this are the extremes when it comes to examples. What Hector is trying to say (great write up Hector !) is to love the fact that we still have this great springer diversity (by definition I hate this buzz word, sorry) from German origin. Especially since for half of the price of a Weihrauch springer in your case -as consumer- you can buy a great entry PCP + charging equipment and probably even a scope as well, that is as accurate as a Weihrauch can be. And 'other' consumers are aware and start to discover that now too...

[Yogi]

High end [German] airguns ?

Then we talk Anschütz-, Feinwerkbau- and Walther PCPs.

I've ever had the pleasure to shoot the Anschütz 9015 from someone (according to Krale the most accurate airgun out there - and I can humbly concur that) and the Walther LG 300 XT.

These PCPs are accurate out of the box, no tweaking and tuning needed. Pure German engineering at its best. Shooting these PCPs, you will start to realize that 'high end' springers like Diana and our well adored Weihrauchs are just torturing tools for the user of it.

Now this are the extremes when it comes to examples. What Hector is trying to say (great write up Hector !) is to love the fact that we still have this great springer diversity (by definition I hate this buzz word, sorry) from German origin. Especially since for half of the price of a Weihrauch springer in your case -as consumer- you can buy a great entry PCP + charging equipment and probably even a scope as well, that is as accurate as a Weihrauch can be. And 'other' consumers are aware and start to discover that now too...

Well Styr's seem to dominate the Olympics.

-Y

[Ike the GSD]

I used to be a motor head and this sound awfully similar to the Ford/Chevy arguments I've heard over the years. In my humble opinion they're both well made I only have one HW a Beeman R9 and I absolutely love it. I also have a Diana 350 and I love it too. If you want to get nit picky I'd say the HW rifles are more refined, but other than that I think they're both high quality products and I've been more than satisfied with their accuracy and performance. 

[Kragman1]

I'm with you Wes, and you said it well.

My original question was to see if some people had changed their preferences with experience, as had happened to me.  My first exposures to good springers were both Diana's, and I was surprised to find that with more exposure I now (mostly) prefer less powerful HWs, because I really like the harder shooting guns.  Started wondering if I was following a common evolution, as it were, away from velocity. 

I've changed to the point that I recently bought an HW30, and I'm enjoying it.  I would not have thought to do so 5 years ago.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not selling off any Diana's and they get plenty of time in my shooting rotation.  In fact I have a little D54 project going on now, and a D460 that will be getting some attention soon too.  But I've found that the HWs suit me better.  Or just please me more.  Not quite sure which. 

[SpiralGroove]

I used to be a motor head and this sound awfully similar to the Ford/Chevy arguments I've heard over the years. In my humble opinion they're both well made I only have one HW a Beeman R9 and I absolutely love it. I also have a Diana 350 and I love it too. If you want to get nit picky I'd say the HW rifles are more refined, but other than that I think they're both high quality products and I've been more than satisfied with their accuracy and performance.

[Methuselah]

My first exposures to good springers were both Diana's, and I was surprised to find that with more exposure I now (mostly) prefer less powerful HWs, because I really like the harder shooting guns. 

I didn't research this, nor look it up, but it came up in a Google search looking for parts for my "brand new junk gun d34" ... I'm needing a bracket and screws that Diana pretty much hacked up during warranty service (then only returned it to me after I filed a complaint with the Attorney General).

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=123163.20

I reckon all l'm suggesting here is this COULD have been your 1st Diana experience, it's not that far removed from mine, and it may have colored the perceptions of others contributing to your (very informative) thread.

Maybe the companies policies have nothing to do with why a person might find motivation to prefer an HW over Diana and I'm unreasonable to bring up anything other than the quality of a well made properly assembled airgun, but at least in my small mind how a company sees its customers feels like a weighing factor?

[Denby95]

My first exposures to good springers were both Diana's, and I was surprised to find that with more exposure I now (mostly) prefer less powerful HWs, because I really like the harder shooting guns. 

I didn't research this, nor look it up, but it came up in a Google search looking for parts for my "brand new junk gun d34" ... I'm needing a bracket and screws that Diana pretty much hacked up during warranty service (then only returned it to me after I filed a complaint with the Attorney General).

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=123163.20

I reckon all l'm suggesting here is this COULD have been your 1st Diana experience, it's not that far removed from mine, and it may have colored the perceptions of others contributing to your (very informative) thread.

Maybe the companies policies have nothing to do with why a person might find motivation to prefer an HW over Diana and I'm unreasonable to bring up anything other than the quality of a well made properly assembled airgun, but at least in my small mind how a company sees its customers feels like a weighing factor?

I just want to be clear here. Diana ? Or do you mean Umarex. They're not the same company after all. I think a large number of us have had negative experiences with Umarex which are in no way connected or to blame on Diana. Of course they're no longer involved with any German spring pistons, and its now Blue Line as the middle man.

[SpiralGroove]

I am only answering this because the devil was invoked. You know, Dracula cannot enter a house without being invited.... >:-)

OK, hard facts:
- Overall, WORLDWIDE, DIANA sells AS MANY airguns as HW.
- Many of the best sellers worldwide are precisely the guns that are deplored here (synthetic stocks and Chinese origin offerings).

When we take into account the other sales under the DIANA brand that are NOT airguns, then situation is even more dramatic, DIANA as a MAKER sells twice as much as HW.

Will some models disappear?  The MARKET will speak and our opinion is worth less than $0.02

- I'd rather buy from Krale than from AoA.

The US sales strategy and logistics is not defined by DIANA, it is decided by BLS, who also decides all other policies in relation to the attention and service that the market gets.
Good, Bad, or Indifferent, that is the reality. And it is like that by contract agreed to by BOTH sides. Neither BLS can impose conditions (because his main business is all the distribution of GSG made guns), nor DIANA can impose conditions because there are other brands in the group that also have "pull".

Sadly, we Americans have a penchant towards "brand loyalty".

Even I think that management at Germany could be doing a better job with the airguns side, but do remember that DIANA (M&G) is no longer family owned and is now a part of a BIG group, whose MAIN business is basically geared towards Military hardware and only as "sidelines" do they have sport shooting equipment.

The SAME group that will outfit the US armed forces for handguns will also, in the near future outfit the army with their next combat weapon. It will take YEARS to move everyone over and BILLIONS of dollars spent by many countries, but it will happen. In the environment of the group, discussing a few millions of sales for airguns is the same as someone telling you off for having a Starbucks coffee instead of a Horton's. In few words, it is "CHUMP CHANGE". Within a large group, remember the Golden Rule ("He who gets the Gold, also gets to Rule").

That has been my mission for the last 13 years and the Spring-Piston USA FT Team has placed well many times, coming out champions twice at the World's. Hopefully that example and those new shooters (mostly between 25 and 45), will generate interest in spring-piston airguns.

JMHO. Keep well and shoot straight! HM

Thanks Hector,
We (I) needed to get a broader picture of Diana's business realities and thinking .

It sounds like the fate of the German, classic Diana's is in the hands of BLS - and a just a small part of GSG's sales.
Because of the "Golden Rule", quality (German) Diana's will be under pressure to be discontinued as a larger & larger part of Diana's sales are from their less expensive, Chinese offerings.   
After all Business is Business - Right!

Guaranteed it must cost Diana more to make a D460, D350 than it costs HW to make a HW50S, however they sell for the same price at AOA.  How is this sustainable for Diana?
Krale only shows 1 Diana offering - the D460 @ $451.00 .  What's that? .

I have purchased over 15 guns from Krale and only 1 from AOA, because I don't like their attitude .

If the US market is the one demanding more expensive airguns, AOA handling of Diana's quality offerings is not a good sign.  It seems they cannot sell them?

My Airgun tastes have changed over the years having gone from all Hatsan, BAM, BSA and Beeman QB offerings to Weihrauch, RAW, BSA and Beeman QB's.
Along the way I tried AA airguns, but didn't think the Whistles and Bells were worth the price of admission.  I initially tried the cheaper route, but after tuning a number of guns decided to go with (mostly) quality.  Weihrauch naturally became the best fit for me.

Your comments make me feel badly for a proud airgun manufacturer Diana (M&G) once was. 
In the (BLS, GSG) boardrooms, quality only means so much, especially in the face of higher costs and lower sales .
 
Weihrauch has persevered by not selling out and sticking to quality when they likely had other thoughts too.


Lastly, Hector, I would never call you Dracula or anything negative - We need your perspective .
I'm a business guy and just see you comments as depressing for the future of Diana's quality offerings ..............

[Kragman1]

Denby, those two Diana's I mentioned were both excellent.  Especially the D45.  Gave me a great opinion of Diana/German springers.

Good enough that I bought a crumbled seal FWB 124 on a whim and sent it out to be redone. (Thanks John!)

That, in turn, turned out so good that I bought a .20 cal R9 that I randomly stumbled across and had zero need for.
That rifle was simply smoother and "better" than the others.  Especially the trigger.

At that point I stopped thinking of these German springers as basement-useable alternatives to "real guns"  -  they now had my full attention, on their own merits. 

My only bad experiences with a Diana came from a refurb gun that I stubbornly refused to return.  Clearly not Diana's fault.

I also don't care for the little bits of plastic they have worked into their guns (especially the front sight on my D460) but that isn't exactly a deal breaker.  All the important stuff is A-OK.  Maybe I've become a little snobbish?  Ha ha.

I DO like the performance, and I DO like the various designs.  I also worry that they won't be supported in the future, but who can say.
Hopefully, I'll be able to spend plenty of time with all of them!

[Rocker1]

 I have to say a spirited conversation gentlemen please keep it civil.   this has is a good thread please lets keep it that way.

 used to be motorhead guys im still a motorhead at 72 and bets are so are you.

[Methuselah]

I just want to be clear here. Diana ? Or do you mean Umarex. They're not the same company after all. I think a large number of us have had negative experiences with Umarex which are in no way connected or to blame on Diana. Of course they're no longer involved with any German spring pistons, and its now Blue Line as the middle man.

At that time it was Umarex, yes, now it's Blue Line. And it was escalated to Dana. Now ancient history or will history repeat itself, I won't roll the dice to find out.

Implications, well, in all fairness maybe I should stop writing here and let things play out where they may?

[Methuselah]

Denby, those two Diana's I mentioned were both excellent.  Especially the D45.  Gave me a great opinion of Diana/German springers.

...

At that point I stopped thinking of these German springers as basement-useable alternatives to "real guns"  -  they now had my full attention, on their own merits. 

I'm glad your experiences were positive Brian.

Furthermore, I'd like to think the vast majority are and my situation was a rare occurrence.

You asked  a really good question and quite frankly piqued my interest in HW.

[north country gal]

I haven't posted much with this thread, but I have been following it every day. To say the least, it has been interesting and at times, very informative. Thank-you, gentlemen.

I spent part of my working career in sales and marketing, so I do understand some of the excellent comments on the marketing and business aspects of this conversation. I agree that as markets go, we German springer fans are a tiny, though loyal and active, subset of the overall air gun market. To be sure, in our enthusiasm and love of shooting these high end springers, some of us lose a little of this perspective at times. I certainly do, because I seldom visit other gates on this forum, even though I shoot and own all types of air guns.

In particular, I also shoot PCPs, everything from the very basic and affordable all the way up to the very expensive and sophisticated stuff. As amazing as the PCPs are, especially my high end Daystate and Steyr PCPs, my bread and butter every day shooting is still mostly the German springers.

Nevertheless, I do pull out my old bare bones basic and simple Benjamin Discovery PCP a couple times a year, pump it up for the 20 shots it gives me, shoot it out there at 50 yards and then sit back and contemplate how the $150 I spent to get this old and now very dated PCP, pump and all, can deliver such remarkable performance. I may even go on the PCP Gate a few times in the following days out of curiosity. When I do, it's almost as if I've landed on a different planet. What a very different world it is than my familiar and cozy German springer gate.

Ultimately, I go back to my German springers. Never fails. The perspective I get with this little side trip is very healthy, though. It helps to keep me grounded as to where German springers and those of us who love them and shoot them are in the modern air gun world. Doesn't make me love my German springers any less. In fact, it makes me appreciate them all the more for what they are and what they can do in the hands of those of us who love them.

Yes, there are differences between HWs, Dianas, Walthers and FWBs. Discuss it, argue it, but in the end, celebrate it. It's a healthy thing for our corner of the air gun world. Fun, too.

[SpiralGroove]

Yeah guys,
If Weihrauch wasn't around .... knowing what I learned (about springers) along the way - I'd buy a D34, D350 and a D54 ........ hands down.
Probably have an AA too.

NCG .... I love my Beeman QB's converted to HPA - they may only cost a meager $180 to make, but boy do they have character .

[lowpwrplnkr]

Is really it about German springers, or more so, just springers in general?

[Kragman1]

German, unless there is another group of high quality springer manufacturers outside of Germany.  I am leaving Air Arms out of the conversation.

In my experience, only my old Cometa 400 performs like a German springer and while it is very good quality, it's not really in the same class as the German guns.  Quite close, but not truly there.

And for me, that's it.  BSA doesn't seem to be in the same class, certainly not Gamo or Hatsan, etc or any of the Chinese products regardless of how they are sold.

[lowpwrplnkr]

"I'm wondering if anyone out there has gone from being "a Diana guy" to Weihrauch, or from Weihrauch to Diana over time.  And if so, why?"

If the question include other brands I could answer - my path includes Daisy, RWS, Beeman, HW, and AA.