Diana 27 = Poor Man's HW30...?

[Kragman1]

Just wondering if it could be said that Diana & HW took different roads to get to the same place, to coin a phrase. 
Plus I like to ask questions...

Your opinions please...

[Methuselah]

Both too rich for my blood so don't know what they are. You DO ask a lot of questions!

(I like that about you, hope you keep doin it  )

[north country gal]

I was at an estate auction over the weekend and there was a Diana 27 up for bidding. Very old gun, but I was tempted to bid, except that I saw several other bidders actually cock it and dry fire it, including the guy who won the bidding, not to mention one of the auctioneer crew members doing the same when it came up for bidding. Guess they thought it was an old BB gun or something. Anyway, still went for $125. I think the fact that the auction had listed it as made in Germany help sell it.

[Kragman1]

Thats nuts!  I paid $65 for mine from a dealer (as opposed to a hobbyist) at an airgun show not 2 months ago.  In really nice shape too, and with a test firing range to help avoid surprises.

[Toxylon]

Dianas, old or new, give nothing away as far as performance (accuracy, consistency, durability) goes. The older Dianas like the 27 don't even have the plastic parts dreaded by some. Many of them do exhibit a different approach to the less tangible features than the Weihrauchs. Make an efficient engine with a fine barrel but cut production costs where it is of no consequence (to performance). I guess that's the poor man's (more like mid-income man's) definition.

And if you want power to go along with the accuracy, Weihrauch is left in the dust, kinda like a portly upscale station wagon against an aggressive yet precise sports car. But I digress.

[KWK]

Just wondering if it could be said that Diana & HW took different roads to get to the same place, to coin a phrase. 
Plus I like to ask questions...

Your opinions please...

Weihrauch took one road and got there.
Diana took another road and said I don't think you can get there from here.
Be fair and compare the 27 to a BSA Mark 1 Meteor if you can find one. The Meteor was designed to go head to head with the 27. And did quite well. In 1959 it was the first airgun  ever to have scope mounting grooves. It took Diana about 10 more years for a substandard spot welded base. The Mark 1 Meteor is a fine little rifle. So what if BSA sorta copied the 27. The Meteor makes a little more power.  Place all other later Meteors in the trash can. Rubbish. The Mark 2 was the beginning of the downward trend. It's not my fault!
I have a nice 60's Diana 27 that would be nicer if I could mount a receiver sight or scope.  My(scarce) Mk1 Meteor has oddball 15.5 mm dovetails that will accept Millet scope rings. But not a receiver sight.

[MDriskill]

Back in the day many European springer manufacturers offered high-quality small and intermediate sized rifles. The HW 30 / R7 wasn't the only one - it's just the last one standing these days, ha. Weihrauch, Diana, BSA, Webley, Milbro, Haenel, Gamo, Falke, Slavia, and many others had similar models.

The Diana 27 is a particular favorite of mine - never too fancy to look at, and (as KWK said!) took 'em a while to get around to good sights. But always a well made, nicely finished, fun and accurate light rifle with good power, and a good trigger. The German 27 was made from the WWI era to the early 1980's. It really was four different guns - each with collectible variations and multiple brand names - though all were similar in size, power, and market niche.

[Brazos]

IMO the HW30 is the better rifle. In fact it is arguably the all around best break barrel piston rifle ever made.  That said the 27 is a very good rifle.  Just not as polished/refined, so yes it it sort of a poor man’s HW30.

[Kragman1]

Well, I definitely agree that the HW30 is a more luxurious rifle, and if they were similarly priced I would chose one over the D27.

That said, I feel that the D27 is pretty close - similar size and weight, similar power, similar accuracy and the D27 also has an excellent trigger and open sights.  It has a different "feel" to it, and looks quite different, but they are both easy to cock etc and are both suitable for the same purposes (mostly shooting for fun, and pesting / light hunting).

I've very glad I had my impulse buy moment at the end of the show.  I do still want a 30, but with the D27 in hand there is no longer a sense of urgency for one.

[Brazos]

Well, I definitely agree that the HW30 is a more luxurious rifle, and if they were similarly priced I would chose one over the D27.

That said, I feel that the D27 is pretty close - similar size and weight, similar power, similar accuracy and the D27 also has an excellent trigger and open sights.  It has a different "feel" to it, and looks quite different, but they are both easy to cock etc and are both suitable for the same purposes (mostly shooting for fun, and pesting / light hunting).

I've very glad I had my impulse buy moment at the end of the show.  I do still want a 30, but with the D27 in hand there is no longer a sense of urgency for one.

I think you are correct.  The 27 is great and will fill the 30 niche.  Both rifle are way better than any box store break barrels.

[Fuzzy]

I too have and love a Diana mod. 27 I bought in 1978. It's what started me on my airgun "problem"

[Bad News Beeman]

What's the modern day equivalent of the 27 that's in current production by Diana? The 250 maybe?

[Kragman1]

Whatever it is, it would have to have something like the T06 trigger and run around 7-8 fpe. And weigh 5 or 6 lbs.

Did a little chrony test tonight, the best I could do with mine (.22) was 8 fpe.  By the skin of its teeth.

I would imagine that "we" could make a decent 6 lb rifle of intermediate dimensions that produced more without losing the charm that such rifles have.  10 ft lbs would be a nice neighborhood.

And I imagine that there are tuned HW30's doing that, whereas I can't really see trying to hot rod a D27 to that level.

Sounds like a pretty cool HW30 though, unless it spoils the shots cycle...

[lillysdad621]

The 27 makes just about the same power than a hw30/r7 (6 to 8 fpe depending on caliber). But a tuned 27 always seemed more gentle, and "worn in" than a tuned HW, which feels efficient and should i say, clinical. That being said, the true gem is the 35 detuned to 27 power levels. It is the most inert springer i have ever shot (not counting recoiless guns, of course). It is not fair to match them against each other, as the hw was and is a more upscale offering from the factory, and has been generally 50% more expensive than contemporary 27s. but both tuned... its a matter of taste. And to me the slender, limber shape of the stock on the Diana, the awesome metal sights, ball bearing trigger, always will hold the torch in my heart.

[MDriskill]

What's the modern day equivalent of the 27 that's in current production by Diana? The 250 maybe?

Starting in 1984, Diana replaced all their classic sporters (models 23, 25, 27, 35, 50, etc.) with new models that had synthetic piston seals, safeties, and other modern accoutrements. The best-known of these is the model 34 - now a classic in its own right. But there was a selection of smaller rifles too, the models 26 and 28 (same except for the 28's nicer stock) being the equivalent of the 27. There was also the smaller model 24 (= the old 25), and an even more junior model 20 for a while.

Like the model 34, the smaller models went through many revisions over the years; but unlike the 34, they came and went in various markets worldwide, and were not hits in the power-mad US. I completely lost track of when they were available, where, under what names, and with which details (at least for me!). But they are out there.

A good friend of mine had early and late versions of the model 28 (the latter went to the same 28mm piston as the model 34 I think). They are very nice rifles.

[MDriskill]

And I imagine that there are tuned HW30's doing that, whereas I can't really see trying to hot rod a D27 to that level.

Sounds like a pretty cool HW30 though, unless it spoils the shots cycle...

A few years back, a rather obsessive acquaintance of mine fell in love with the model 27, and did the "Full Monty" on one. Sunnen honed chamber, carefully spaced-up Maccari spring, synthetic seal, custom milled spring guide, high-tech lubes...and I think some other things I'm forgetting. When he got done, the power was...exactly the same as when he started!

Needless to say he was annoyed, LOL, but it's apparent that the Diana guys knew what they were doing. And the 27's powerplant - perhaps aided by some lucky coincidence? - seems to hit a sweet spot of piston diameter, stroke length, etc.

I can also tell you that these older Dianas, plain though they may look, are top quality where it matters. The leather piston seal and mainspring are superb, the barrel is excellent, the breech pivot design is vastly better than HW's afterthought shims, and the later ones have about the best open rear sight ever made. I have a 1980 model 27 that's never been opened up - done nothing more that squirt a bit of lube down it occasionally - and it still makes original power, with the feel of a tuned gun.

[MDriskill]

The 27 makes just about the same power than a hw30/r7 (6 to 8 fpe depending on caliber). But a tuned 27 always seemed more gentle, and "worn in" than a tuned HW, which feels efficient and should i say, clinical. That being said, the true gem is the 35 detuned to 27 power levels. It is the most inert springer i have ever shot (not counting recoiless guns, of course). It is not fair to match them against each other, as the hw was and is a more upscale offering from the factory, and has been generally 50% more expensive than contemporary 27s. but both tuned... its a matter of taste. And to me the slender, limber shape of the stock on the Diana, the awesome metal sights, ball bearing trigger, always will hold the torch in my heart.

Thanks for this great post! It's a perfect description of this classic pair.

It's interesting to compare contemporary examples of the 27 and 35 side by side. Much like the old Weihrauch HW 50 and 35, mechanically they are basically the same gun with different-diameter pistons. The receiver tube and piston stroke are the same, and they share quite a few parts including the cocking link, sights, and most of the ball-sear trigger's bits.

I first fell in love with the 27, and with lower-powered springers in general, after reading a classic article by Ladd Fanta in the 1977 "Gun Digest" annual. A version of that can be seen on Paul Watts's site: http://www.springgunning.com/Diana27.html

[MDriskill]

IMO the HW30 is the better rifle. In fact it is arguably the all around best break barrel piston rifle ever made.  That said the 27 is a very good rifle.  Just not as polished/refined, so yes it it sort of a poor man’s HW30.

That is very true - if we compare a typical model 27, which ceased production about 1982, to an HW 30 / R7 made since then.

It was Dr. Beeman who came up with turning the HW 30 into an "adult" gun. Before then, the HW 30 was much simpler: slender finger-groove stock, no buttplate, no safety, leather piston seal, lighter barrel, open post front sight, and sheet metal rear receiver cap. And most examples had the simpler Perfekt trigger, not the famous Rekord. Still a excellent rifle, but back when both the HW 30 and D27 competed in the market, they were much closer in basic features.

My personal nominee for the perfect all-round break-barrel is the original HW 50 S (NOT the same as the current one): basically an HW 30 stretched for an extra 100 FPS or so, with a nicer stock, Rekord trigger, and the famous solid threaded-on rear end.

[Toxylon]

What's the modern day equivalent of the 27 that's in current production by Diana? The 250 maybe?

I don't think the Two-Fifty is a D27 equivalent in any way: it's much too big, strong and unrefined, from trigger on up, as well as too modern in style.

The Two-Forty is clearly Diana's current attempt at the D27 slot: small, lightweight, 5.5 fpe, wood-stocked, breakbarrel, classically styled pllnker, but made in China like the Two-Fifty. Sadly, the Two-Forty has an unadjustable, subpar trigger, so in that regard it's nothing like the D27.

[cjtamu]

The 27 makes just about the same power than a hw30/r7 (6 to 8 fpe depending on caliber). But a tuned 27 always seemed more gentle, and "worn in" than a tuned HW, which feels efficient and should i say, clinical. That being said, the true gem is the 35 detuned to 27 power levels. It is the most inert springer i have ever shot (not counting recoiless guns, of course). It is not fair to match them against each other, as the hw was and is a more upscale offering from the factory, and has been generally 50% more expensive than contemporary 27s. but both tuned... its a matter of taste. And to me the slender, limber shape of the stock on the Diana, the awesome metal sights, ball bearing trigger, always will hold the torch in my heart.

Did you mean the HW35 tuned to D27 power levels? Because the Diana 35 is already there. Mine runs dead on 8 FPE with AA/JSB 7.33 and is just a joy to shoot.