4" low at 15 FEET!

[GlennS1956]

I've had my Beeman R9 for about 5 weeks.  It easily zeroed in with the iron sights, and with a Hawke Wide View Reflex Red Dot sight mounted on a UTG Universal Adapter. After about 200 pellets I bought a Hawke Airmax 2-7x32 AO, and mounted it with Hawke Low 1" rings on the same adapter.  The instructions said that it was set to optical zero at the factory, so I haven't adjusted the scope in any way.  It printed a nice group, 4" below the bullseye at 15 feet.  I couldn't see any barrel droop, so the first thing I tried was to reverse the UTG adapter.  Same results. 




Next I measured the barrel to make sure there was no taper, and zeroed a digital angle gauge on the compression tube.  When I put the gauge on the barrel it showed no droop. 





Then I checked a piece of aluminum angle against several straight edges, and balanced it on the compression tube.  It showed a droop of 0.025" from the breech block to the back of the front sight.  Less than 1/32".





I checked the charging arm with the gun closed and there was no wiggle in it, cocked or uncocked.  Not sure this is affecting the POA since the barrel doesn't appear to be drooping. I couldn't see any light between the breech block and the compression block. I ordered a UTG Drooper Scope Rail.  I'm hoping that will take care of the problem, but 4" @15' seems like a lot for a drooper rail to fix.  Any suggestions?

[Yogi]

What is your scope's height above the bore?
A scope that is optically centered and has no angle built into the mount will never intersect the pellets path.  Scopes need to be pointed DOWN to intersect the pellet's path.
How much elevation is built into the scope?  Need more info, before the barrel benders arrive....

-Y

[Roadworthy]

The scope may (or may not) be at optical zero but that has nothing to do with where your pellets hit.  Try moving the target out to twenty yards or so.  You'll probably see some difference.  Four inches does sound like a lot but I'd start at twenty yards to see how far off it is.  If the gun is new and the breech seal hasn't compressed fully the barrel may not be closing all the way.  Iron sights don't count as they're mounted on the barrel.  A  red dot sight is generally somewhat coarse - not as precise as a scope.  In any case you normally do have to zero a scope for your gun.  I have yet to buy a scope that didn't require some elevation adjustment.

[Deerstalker]

This may help.  My HW95 trajectory with scope mounted 1.5" above rifle bore.

[jccams]

Make sure the cocking arm is not interfering with the breech block when closed.  This has been a big issue with the HW95 but I haven't heard of it on a R9.  Easy to check, with gun closed you should be able to wiggle the cocking arm, if not this may be your problem.  This will prevent complete lock up and result in low POI.

[Deerstalker]

The charging arm on my HW95 seems solid in the closed position both cocked & uncocked.  In the half cocked position the arm will rattle a little side to side.  I don't believe that the arm is contacting anything along the surface next to the compression tube when closed BUT it is difficult to observe this area.

[Yogi]

Try the tissue test!
You have 140 MOA of elevation adjustment.
Move back to 20 yards and start cranking.  Otherwise, optically center the scope yourself.  Do not ASSUME anything!


-Y

[starlingassassin]

fyi,optically centered does not mean sighted in.

just sayin lol

click that sucker and sight it in.

[Bayman]

Looking at the picture, it looks to have droop. Lots of new R9s have problems with barrel droop from the cocking arm binding on the breech block when closed. I've fixed a few. There's an anti rattle spring that puts pressure on the cocking arm but there should be enough play in it that you can wiggle it when closed. If it's tight and hard to wiggle it's binding on the edge of the cut in the breech block.

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=189245.0

You can check it by putting a piece of paper between the full length of the arms overlap of the breech. If it bites the paper and you can't slide it out, it's binding. Whether or not it's enough to cause droop varies. One thing it will likely cause is in consistent lock up and vertical stringing.

You can optically center a scope with the mirror method.. You can find it on YouTube.

[GlennS1956]

Yall were right.  The scope wasn't optically centered at the factory.  I followed Hawke's instructions and turned both knobs all the way in, and backed them both out 60 clicks.  At 15 yards, 100 clicks up from the bottom and 40 clicks from the left put it in the bullseye.  At 5 yards it is 3/4" low.  The farthest I can shoot within my backyard is 25 yards, so I'll try it at that range next time I shoot it.  Thanks for all the help.  I learned a lot from this. After I shoot a tin of pellets, I'll check the cocking arm again.

[huntr]

I've had my Beeman R9 for about 5 weeks.  It easily zeroed in with the iron sights, and with a Hawke Wide View Reflex Red Dot sight mounted on a UTG Universal Adapter. After about 200 pellets I bought a Hawke Airmax 2-7x32 AO, and mounted it with Hawke Low 1" rings on the same adapter.  The instructions said that it was set to optical zero at the factory, so I haven't adjusted the scope in any way.  It printed a nice group, 4" below the bullseye at 15 feet.  I couldn't see any barrel droop, so the first thing I tried was to reverse the UTG adapter.  Same results. 




Next I measured the barrel to make sure there was no taper, and zeroed a digital angle gauge on the compression tube.  When I put the gauge on the barrel it showed no droop. 





Then I checked a piece of aluminum angle against several straight edges, and balanced it on the compression tube.  It showed a droop of 0.025" from the breech block to the back of the front sight.  Less than 1/32".





I checked the charging arm with the gun closed and there was no wiggle in it, cocked or uncocked.  Not sure this is affecting the POA since the barrel doesn't appear to be drooping. I couldn't see any light between the breech block and the compression block. I ordered a UTG Drooper Scope Rail.  I'm hoping that will take care of the problem, but 4" @15' seems like a lot for a drooper rail to fix.  Any suggestions?

Seriously? You thought you could take a scope out of the box, mount it on any gun and it would be zeroed for any projectile?

Not sure what the odds of that are, but I think maybe it’s equal to or greater than winning the lottery.

They put vertical and horizontal adjustments on rifle scopes for a reason. 

[GlennS1956]

Seriously? You thought you could take a scope out of the box, mount it on any gun and it would be zeroed for any projectile?

No.

[SpiralGroove]

Yeah Glenn,
My standard when I get a new Weihrauch:

- Tune it to make sure no issues with cocking/latching/shooting/accuracy etc.

- Zero a scope by focusing it on an object 25 yards or so away and rotating it, making adjustments until the crosshairs don't move much (or at all) for a full rotation.

- Mount the scope and shoot in my 13 yard range.  Any adjustment needed for barrel droop or whatever are done with barrel bending until withing 1" of bull (or better).

The scope can account easily for the rest and be on center.

Everybody has their own ritual - that's what I do .

[braskaboy]

Seriously? You thought you could take a scope out of the box, mount it on any gun and it would be zeroed for any projectile?

No.

So what is it you expected?

I am confused because naturally POA/POI will be offset by height over bore.

Which is why we zero...

[Yogi]

Seriously? You thought you could take a scope out of the box, mount it on any gun and it would be zeroed for any projectile?

No.

So what is it you expected?

I am confused because naturally POA/POI will be offset by height over bore.

Which is why we zero...

He ASSUMED that his scope was optically centered.  Thus the distance from POA and POI should be the distance between scope center and bore center + pellet drop of 15 feet.  I would ASSUME that this should be 1 1/2-2 1/2 inch drop not the 4 that he recorded.  Don't ASSUME anything.  Check and verify.

-Y

[GlennS1956]

Seriously? You thought you could take a scope out of the box, mount it on any gun and it would be zeroed for any projectile?

No.

So what is it you expected?

I expected the scope to be optically centered from the factory, like Hawke's instructions said.  I have purchased several items from Hawke over the past few months, and I was impressed with how well they worked. Especially their red dot sights. So I had no reason to doubt their instructions, when all the rest of the instructions I had from them worked out so well.  And at 4" low at 15 feet, I didn't want to start cranking the scope knobs that much without seeking advice from this group first.  I ended up having to crank it through its entire range anyway, but I'm glad I asked for advice first. This is the first nice scope I've ever owned. I've always used open sights on my powder burners, and then red dot sights after my eyeballs reached retirement age.

[Back_Roads]

 I have actually had a cheap scope on a cheap gun line right up darn near perfect a couple times out of 100

[nced]

A few personal "how I done it" comments...........

"The instructions said that it was set to optical zero at the factory"
The first thing I do is to check the "optical centering" whenever I get a new scope and (so far) every Hawke scope I've received has arrived "optically centered"...........


Perhaps the scope you received was "messed with and then returned" to Hawke/the vendor. The normally accepted "best way" to check for "optical centering" is to set the scope "in vees cut in a cardboard box" then focus the scope crosshairs on a "aiming mark", then spin the scope in the "vees" to see if the center of the crosshair "orbits about the aiming mark". If the crosshair stays on the "aiming mark" while rotating the scope is mechanically centered but not necessarily "optically centered". This centering method does rely on the precision of scope elements so a cheap scope mightbe a bit iffy.

The Hawke recommended centering method of "counting clicks/ dividing by two" is also dependent on the precision of the clicks from "stop to stop", plus if the turning to the stop is done "ham-fisted" the position of the erector assembly could be altered.

My simple but preferred method to check reticle alignment "straight from the box" as reduce the scope power to the minimum setting, then set the adjustable objective to "infinity". Set the scope end bell on a brightly lit mirror and see if the crosshair reflection is aligned with the crosshair. As mentioned, so far with all new Hawke scopes I've received (to date) the crosshair reflection has indeed aligned with the crosshair. Here are a couple pics from the internet............
Not optically centered using an unlit reticle


Not optically centered using a lighted reticle


After I verify that the new scope is "optically centered" I mount it on my gun and then "bend the barrel" so the point of impact is within about an inch or or less of the point of aim at 30 yards, then final adjustments are done via the scope turrets.

Here is an "internet description" of several different scope optical centering methods..........
https://www.agmglobalvision.eu/blog/the-easy-way-to-center-a-rifle-scope

Another potential "issue" with scope setup is adjusting the proper parallax so the crosshair doesn't move from the aim point if the eye isn't exactly centered in the ocular. Here is a recommendation concerning parallax adjustment so moving the eye doesn't affect the placement of the crosshair............
https://www.bcsportsmen.org/ft/A_Team_Parallax_adjustment_procedure.pdf

[SpiralGroove]

+1 Ed .

[Yogi]

Ed,

Were you a teacher in your "other life"?  You are EXCELLENT at explaining stuff!

-Y