Gecado Hy Score 806

[cjtamu]

Thread title says”Hy-score 806” so assumed gun was labeled that way somewhere. And “Geco” I believe should be short for Gecado.

Nope! Different companies altogether.

GeCaDo.- Georg Carl am Dornheim

GeCo.- Genschow & Co.

GeCaDo was a brand ACQUIRED by M&G post WWII

M&G also owned an "Eureka" brand. Mainly used for toys.





HM

Thanks, Hector.

[MDriskill]

Apologies for resurrecting this older post, but I saw the reference to the "Gecado 806" elsewhere and had to look it up. As noted above, it's a Diana model 22 (which had a stamped housing enclosing a brass barrel; the model 23 had the same action with a traditional solid steel barrel).

"806" is the Hy-Score model number. Their early Diana imports have Gecado markings on the action; but added the Hy-Score medallion with small stamped model number beneath, on the stock. I have a model 27 (Hy-Score 807) that is done exactly the same way. Later Hy-Score Diana imports have their own model number stamped on the receiver - see pic below.

The full story behind Diana's many trademarks would make a book! Above my pay grade, LOL, but have also seen "Gecado" on guns exported to Canada, South America, Australia / New Zealand, and South Africa.

[HectorMedina]

Apologies for resurrecting this older post, but I saw the reference to the "Gecado 806" elsewhere and had to look it up. As noted above, it's a Diana model 22 (which had a stamped housing enclosing a brass barrel; the model 23 had the same action with a traditional solid steel barrel).

"806" is the Hy-Score model number. Their early Diana imports have Gecado markings on the action; but added the Hy-Score medallion with small stamped model number beneath, on the stock. I have a model 27 (Hy-Score 807) that is done exactly the same way. Later Hy-Score Diana imports have their own model number stamped on the receiver - see pic below.

The full story behind Diana's many trademarks would make a book! Above my pay grade, LOL, but have also seen "Gecado" on guns exported to Canada, South America, Australia / New Zealand, and South Africa.

Thanks, Mike!

I have mixed feelings about people saying that "DIANA used brands" or "DIANA's brands".

As someone who evolved from the corporate world, for me these differences are important.

So, let's start with one important factor:

DIANA is a brand.

A brand does not have other brands.

The MAKER of DIANA branded airguns had always been Mayer & Grammelspacher until they lost the use of the brand to MilBro for all the world that was signatory to the Conventionof Rome in Patents and Trademarks; M&G recovered the EXCLUSIVE worldwide rights to the brand after MilBro went bankrupt.

When GSG purchased the DIANA brand, they bought it by buying the parent company, the maker: M&G

But it is STILL M&G the one that owns the DIANA brand and some others that are not used (at least for the time being).

M&G (as a MAKER), produced guns for OTHER companies that had their OWN brands.

Let's think about this:
Back in the 1800's, WE in the USA saw a lot of guns under the "Sears - Roebuck" brand. S-R OWNED the brand "Ted Williams" and used it for their "premium" articles; and so, many guns were made by Remington or Winchester under the "Ted Williams" OR the S-R brand for sale by S-R.

It's the same with these cases.

Georg Carl Dortmund (GeCaDo), was a famous and widely known brand of sporting equipment, with outlets all over the world, and their volume of sales allowed GeCaDo to have M&G make rifles under their BRAND.

SOMETIMES, the rifles were identical to those released to the market  by M&G under the DIANA brand. In other cases, subtle or not so subtle differences were incorporated. It all depended on the spec of the order.
Just as GeCaDo, RWS, GECO, Eureka, Original and other brands have used M&G products to reach markets.

Another example:
Right now, one of the best "bang for your buck" in RF's is the DIANA R22. It shoots right in there with other much more prestigious (and costlier RF's) at a fraction of the cost. It is also sold in Europe under the Webley brand as the "Exocet MkII".
Is DIANA using a Webley brand? Nope! Webley is using the Webley brand to sell goods that they feel make sense. And they contract with GSG/M&G to make the guns for them.

People think that because M&G could still use the DIANA brand in many places while MilBro was having the exclusivity. It was not so. MilBro had the exclusivity of the DIANA brand for all regions that accepted patents and trademark protections under the English speaking rules and organisms, so selling the gun to GeCaDo for sale to the UK "ex-colonial possessions" like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or South Africa was simple business sense when you are trying to recover from a war.

South America was peculiar because even though they never respected too much patents and trademarks, the history of the British participation in the area's Independence movements of 1810 carried weight well into the 1980's.

Sorry for the rant.

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

[MDriskill]

Thanks Hector!

You are of course quite right about my bad brand name terminology. But so many US shooters recognize the most common "Diana" name (and would not know Mssrs. Mayer or Grammelspacher from Adam, LOL) that it has slipped into becoming the normal - if admittedly sloppy 😖 - way to talk about these airguns. In future posts I will be careful to include a brief blurb making the Mayer & Grammelspacher / Diana distinction.

Question 1: Which brand names did M&G actually own; vs. those used on guns contracted by other companies? Brands that I know of include: Beeman; Beeman's Original; Condor; Diana; Donor; Gecado; Geco; Hy-Score; Original; Peerless; RWS; and Winchester.

Question 2: I - and many others - are eternally confused by Milbro's rights to the Diana name. I have several guns - clearly made during the "Milbro years" - which bear the Diana brand. So there were some places where UK patents and trademarks did not apply?

[ScottJ]

Hector:  II sure didn't read that as a rant.  I read it as a very informative & fascinating primer on the subject.

I'm reading this thread because I know squat about the OP's rifle or it's cousins from that era.  Now I know more.

I don't own a single one of the many models from different makers or brands, but I I would in a second if I stumbled across one, however unlikely that is.  I very rarely do yard/barn/estate sales, but my wife does and if she texts a picture and asks if I'm interested in  a BB gun that's for sale I now have a better knowledge base to work from before telling her, "Sure! See if they'll take $10."

Thanks all for the cool information.  Scott

[HectorMedina]

Thanks for having a positive attitude. The world is a better place because there are people like you.

@ Mike.-

I have asked the same question about the usage of the DIANA brand in the post-war years, with varying answers.
I BELIEVE, that the reality is in itself confusing because the "Reparations" process itself was disorderly.
AFAIK, the (Allied) Governments, themselves each consulted with their industrial sectors, and it was the industries themselves the ones that put out the requests.
IF my, somewhat closely guarded info, is correct, on the US side, General Eisenhower had serious objections to this because, in his mind, this would create a "military-industrial complex", and it would spell endless expenses and continued need for military spending (Continuous wars). In his mind, the United Nations (evolved from the League of Nations) had to be a solid guarantor of peace.

So, for us in the US, most of the technology/intellectual property/know-how came in the way of personnel. The most famous? Herr Werner Von Braun, that headed the US space efforts for many years, there were others as important, but MUCH less noticeable.

The case of "DIANA" was extremely peculiar.
Rastatt, where the plant was officially located, fell under French control, and the French have never had a solid airgun tradition; CO2? yes! remember Paul Giffard, but airguns? Nope!
And so they were in a hurry to get their "reparations" (some historians have argued that the French desire for quick reparations after WWI was a direct cause of WWII), and they invited the allied commanders to inspect the facility.
One of the persons sent to inspect the factory in 1947 was a Col. Millard (yup! that Millard), and it was he who saw the potential of the equipment and the processes.
So, in 1948 the plant was sold by the French to the British company Milbro, for 10,600 British Pounds (about 42,000 1948US$ ).
The first DIANA airgun made by Milbro in Scotland came out in 1949.

M&G, because it was in the French sector could not start producing rifled barrels until 1951, while Walther and Weihrauch started a year earlier.
Within all this, the brands used by M&G for the UK (and possessions), were: "Original", "Condor", "Firebird", and "GECADO", "Eureka" was more a brand geared to Toys. For the US, brands such as "Peerless", "Hy-Score", "Beeman", "Winchester" and, of course, "RWS" were used as applicable.
For the rest of the world, M&G could still use DIANA as a brand.
As years passed, it was clear that MilBro was not developing the brand itself (only a couple of pistols were designed in Scotland and manufactured/distributed/sold under the DIANA brand by MilBro.
We need to remember that M&G had been the supplier of airguns to MilBro before the war. AND that the DIANA brand already had a good market in the British Commonwealth countries; especially because for all the "bloody colonials" it was harder to get firearms as they were, literally, second class citizens. So, from HK-Burma/NZ/Australia all the way to British Guyana, passing through India, people used airguns when they could not get firearms, and the DIANA brand had a solid recognition.

Under those conditions, it made then sense to use a brand that would separate the "real" products from the "reparations copies", and so the "Original" brand was born. It was a brilliant idea if you think of the world of the printed catalog.
In one page the retailers could advertise a "DIANA Mod. 45, made in Scotland" and on the next page, the retailers could advertise an "Original Mod. 45 Made in West Germany"
Hunters and shooters have always been conservative persons, cautious and somewhat refractory to change. So... on which horse would you place your bets?

In those markets where the Paris convention/Treaty of Rome was not applicable, or very loosely enforced, or where it would have been more expensive to sue for enforcement than it was worth it, it was anybody's guess; by anybody, I mean the wholesalers/distributors that were "servicing" that specific market.

By 1982, MilBro had ceased operations and by 1984 M&G regained the exclusivity of use of the DIANA brand. It is my understanding that the brand was BOUGHT back (talk about adding insult to injury).

For us, airgunners, it should be clear that the aftermath of ANY war lies well beyond the years of fighting. In the case of our passion (airguns), the aftermath went THIRTY SEVEN YEARS into the future (1947 to 1984).  And it took inventiveness, resourcefulness, and an almost infinite amount of patience and perseverance to get fully back on track. That's a whole generation!

When looking at all the twists and turns, I kind of understand why the Germans themselves do NOT want to get involved in the history, why the "Library" of prototypes and one-of's was sold, why the whole past had to be left behind. It would be too painful to realize just how many bad things happened and to digest all the injustices and "hurts" that bad governments inflict on everyone not only their own peoples, but everyone else too.

@Scott.- $10 may be a bit on the "optimistic" side    , but there are some real, substantial bargains out there. Depending on your sphere of interest, you can get a working DIANA starting from $100

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1052993231

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1054834314

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1054357354

Jut be careful; once you buy one, there is no end to the rabbit hole, LOL!

Again, thanks, keep well and shoot straight!





HM

[MDriskill]

Thank you Hector! Great info as usual - your well-informed and well-written posts always add to the common knowledge.