Author Topic: Walther Talon Magnum/Falcon Hunters in .25 cal (Read 16031 times))

Skjold · « **on:** October 27, 2011, 01:04:25 PM »

I was wondering for all you that have one; what are your typical Chrony numbers with various pellet types and weights? I have pretty much ruled out getting one in .177 cal. Now I am torn between the .22 and .25. Peak power for the .22 cal seems to occur between 18-21 grains. I am trying to find out where the .25 peaks at.

Smackey54 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 27, 2011, 02:38:00 PM »

Mine peaks at about 26 Grains.

Here are some chrony numbers from my Falcon Hunter .25 with various pellets:

   Gun:   Cal:   Date:            Gun:   Cal:   Date:
Shot   Pellet    Grains   Velocity   FPE       Shot   Pellet   Grains   Velocity   FPE
   H&N Field Target Trophy Benjamin Destroyer
1 20.06   757.2   25.54512684      1      27.8   622.8   23.94958145
2      20.06   744.6   24.70204546      2      27.8   635.9   24.96769038
3      20.06   770.5   26.4503936      3      27.8   663   27.14112074
4      20.06   782.2   27.25978814      4      27.8   660.7   26.95313793
5      20.06   798.8   28.42909045      5      27.8   674.6   28.09916366
6      20.06   782.4   27.27372998      6      27.8   653   26.32855855
7      20.06   754   25.32967075      7      27.8   670.6   27.76692699
8      20.06   785.3   27.47628724      8      27.8   658.9   26.80647663
9      20.06   765.9   26.13551077      9      27.8   663.2   27.15749794
10      20.06   755.2   25.41035986      10      27.8   652.9   26.32049529
   Average      769.61   26.38932351         Average      655.56   26.53539845
   Min      744.6   24.70204546         Min      635.9   23.94958145
   Max      798.8   28.42909045         Max      674.6   28.09916366
   Spread      54.2   3.727044991         Spread      38.7   4.149582214

   Gun:   Cal   Date            Gun:   Cal   Date
Shot   Pellet   Grains   Velocity   FPE       Shot   Pellet   Grains   Velocity   FPE
   H&N Barracuda    H&N Crow Magnum
1 31.061   625.2   26.96468271      1      26.23   702.1   28.71786575
2      31.06   595.4   24.45541496      2      26.23   686.1   27.4238897
3      31.06   604.7   25.22535651      3      26.23   696.6   28.26969709
4      31.06   619.5   26.47524557      4      26.23   698.4   28.41598247
5      31.06   574.7   22.78451403      5      26.23   698.4   28.41598247
6      31.06   605.3   25.27543993      6      26.23   688.4   27.60806305
7      31.06   562.2   21.80414483      7      26.23   702.1   28.71786575
8      31.06   554.8   21.23392507      8      26.23   697.2   28.31841694
9      31.06   612.3   25.86341655      9      26.23   695.8   28.20480254
10    31.06   576.8   22.95133114      10      26.23   705.4   28.98845875
   Average      593.09   24.26602154         Average      697.05   28.30623305
   Min      554.8   21.23392507         Min      686.1   27.4238897
   Max      619.5   26.96468271         Max      705.4   28.98845875
   Spread      64.7   5.73075764         Spread      19.3   1.564569049

That was before I installed JM piston seal, deburred, and lube/tune. I have not shot across the chrony yet as I haven't shot it enough to break the piston in.
Hope this helps. You'll have to do a little shuffling to get the columns to line up.
If you prefer graphs, you might want to look at the attached graph.....

Skjold · « **Reply #2 on:** October 28, 2011, 01:57:57 PM »

I would like to see the new reconditioned rifle numbers sometime as I believe these numbers kinda reflect a tired rifle. In .22 cal I have numbers reflecting 29 FPE. I expected to see FPE over 30 in .25 but as you said that was before the tune.

Smackey54 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 28, 2011, 03:22:24 PM »

Rifle was bought used, but did not have many rounds through it. When I dismantled it, I found metal chips in the piston seal. I cleaned it all up, deburred, lubed, and new piston seal. I also put a bushing in the chinzy plastic stock where the rear trigger goes through. It was enlarged from poor fit. I have not run it across the chrony yet, but it shoots more quietly, is less hold sensitive, and is very accurate. Even if there were no gain in fpe, I would be happy with 28fpe with accuracy.
And...with your .22 you will get a bigger hit at greater ranges than I will with my .25.
The .25 and .22 have exactly the same power plant.
I will post the results when I get a chance to run it over the chrony again.

Talon22 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 28, 2011, 04:10:42 PM »

Shot Grains Velocity FPE Shot Grains Velocity FPE
    H&N Field Target Trophy    Benjamin Destroyer
1 20.06 757.2 25.54512684 1 27.8 622.8 23.94958145
2 20.06 744.6 24.70204546 2 27.8 635.9 24.96769038
3 20.06 770.5 26.4503936 3 27.8 663 27.14112074
4 20.06 782.2 27.25978814 4 27.8 660.7 26.95313793
5 20.06 798.8 28.42909045 5 27.8 674.6 28.09916366
6 20.06 782.4 27.27372998 6 27.8 653 26.32855855
7 20.06 754 25.32967075 7 27.8 670.6 27.76692699
8 20.06 785.3 27.47628724 8 27.8 658.9 26.80647663
9 20.06 765.9 26.13551077 9 27.8 663.2 27.15749794
10 20.06 755.2 25.41035986 10 27.8 652.9 26.32049529
   Average 769.61 26.38932351 Average 655.5 26.53539845
   Min 744.6 24.70204546 Min 635.9 23.94958145
   Max 798.8 28.42909045 Max 674.6 28.09916366
   Spread 54.2 3.727044991 Spread 38.7 4.149582214


Shot Grains Velocity FPE Shot Grains Velocity FPE
H&N Barracuda       H&N Crow Magnum
1 31.061 625.2 26.96468271 1 26.23 702.1 28.71786575
2 31.06 595.4 24.45541496 2 26.23 686.1 27.4238897
3 31.06 604.7 25.22535651 3 26.23 696.6 28.26969709
4 31.06 619.5 26.47524557 4 26.23 698.4 28.41598247
5 31.06 574.7 22.78451403 5 26.23 698.4 28.41598247
6 31.06 605.3 25.27543993 6 26.23 688.4 27.60806305
7 31.06 562.2 21.80414483 7 26.23 702.1 28.71786575
8 31.06 554.8 21.23392507 8 26.23 697.2 28.31841694
9 31.06 612.3 25.86341655 9 26.23 695.8 28.20480254
10 31.06 576.8 22.95133114 10 26.23 705.4 28.98845875
Average 593.09 24.26602154 Average 697.05 28.30623305
   Min 554.8 21.23392507 Min 686.1 27.4238897
   Max 619.5 26.96468271 Max 705.4 28.98845875
   Spread 64.7 5.73075764 Spread 19.3 1.564569049
I Doubt my Talon got these numbers. I don't have a chronograph though.

Dick Tracey · « **Reply #5 on:** October 28, 2011, 07:15:21 PM »

These numbers are from my Webley Patriot in .25 cal made in Turkey. It is the same Hatsan 125 that the talon and hunter are. This gun was bought new and lube tuned by Raine Air
http://raneair.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=135341955
sorry about the misalignment of the table.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,18604.msg162191.html#msg162191
Theremare a few pellets with a wide spreed hi and low. They were caused by me inserting a pellet past flush in the breech.

Dick Tracey

Lambchops · « **Reply #6 on:** October 28, 2011, 07:42:23 PM »

I got 33 fpe with mine with those beeman 20 grain field target pellets. If you dont mind, go read my review of the .25 wfh in the airgun review gate.

Pete · « **Reply #7 on:** October 28, 2011, 08:50:02 PM »

Quote from: Dick Tracey on October 28, 2011, 07:15:21 PM

These numbers are from my Webley Patriot in .25 cal made in Turkey. It is the same Hatsan 125 that the talon and hunter are. This gun was bought new and lube tuned by Raine Air
http://raneair.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=135341955
sorry about the misalignment of the table.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,18604.msg162191.html#msg162191
Theremare a few pellets with a wide spreed hi and low. They were caused by me inserting a pellet past flush in the breech.

Dick Tracey

O no it an't...
the mod 125 has a 28mm ID tube..
Patriot has a 30.5mm ID tube..

Other Hatsan's have a 26.75mm ID tube...

Dick Tracey · « **Reply #8 on:** October 29, 2011, 12:42:06 AM »

That is good to know. If it has a bigger ID tube does that mean more power?

Bryan Heimann · « **Reply #9 on:** October 29, 2011, 10:15:08 PM »

Quote from: Dick Tracey on October 29, 2011, 12:42:06 AM

That is good to know. If it has a bigger ID tube does that mean more power?

if all other things are equal, then yes. also a longer stroke increases potential power. any increase in the volume of the compression chamber increases a gun's power potential because a larger volume of air can be swept and compressed.

Skjold · « **Reply #10 on:** October 30, 2011, 03:25:01 PM »

So with volume in mind which rifle has the greatest volume looking at stroke and diameter?

Bryan Heimann · « **Reply #11 on:** October 30, 2011, 03:51:31 PM »

i think that the patty probably has the greatest volume overall. i used to have a .25 walther talon mag, and i measured the piston ID, spring diameter, spring guide etc and posted it and pete told me that the turkish patty has the same measurements. i thought maybe they were basically the same, however that did not include the outside diameter of the piston or the inside diameter of the tube. i am willing to bet that you could remove 2.5 mm from the diameter of the patty's piston and it might drop right in to the talon, but not vice versa. all i'm really sure of is i want a .25 patty lol

Smackey54 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 31, 2011, 04:58:21 PM »

Here are my average chrony numbers with fpe for 10 shot strings with my WFH before and then after I did lube tune and replaced piston seal with JM seal:

Before: After:
Pellet     Grains     Velocity     FPE Pellet Grains Velocity FPE
H&N FTT 20.06 769.61     26.38932351 H&N FTT 20.06 792.7   27.99655339

Pellet     Grains     Velocity     FPE Pellet Grains Velocity FPE
H&N Barracuda   31.06 593.09     24.26602154 H&N Barracuda 31.06 636.12   27.91486142

Pellet     Grains     Velocity     FPE Pellet Grains Velocity FPE
H&N Crow Mag   26.23 697.05     28.30623305 H&N Crow Mag 26.23 710.96   29.44723683

As you can see, the increase was minimal, but enough to make a change of at least one foot pound with each pellet, but the largest increase was seen in the heavy Barracuda pellet.

I also chronied the predator polymag (26 gr) and it was only slightly better than the Crow Mag at 712.34fps and 29.30245017fpe

Next is to shim the breech seal.

WHITEFANG · « **Reply #13 on:** October 31, 2011, 06:38:21 PM »

Did you hone the piston chamber?

Smackey54 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 31, 2011, 06:57:47 PM »

Quote from: WHITEFANG on October 31, 2011, 06:38:21 PM

Did you hone the piston chamber?

No. I did not....nor did I polish the piston. I simply deburred and lubed mating surfaces and flattened spring ends. After applying the Moly to the ID of the spring, treating the spring OD with a synthetic disc brake grease, and intalling a delrin spacer inside piston head where top hat strikes, it was much quieter, smoother, and far less hold sensitive. I'm not gonna hunt deer with it, but I have dispatched a pesky coyote with it (eye shot with a barracuda). He went about 10 feet and dropped.
Unless something will increase the fpe by 4 or more, I intend to leave it alone.

WHITEFANG · « **Reply #15 on:** October 31, 2011, 11:18:29 PM »

Just wonder about the honing and a new seal. I scuffed one up one time and installed a new seal and lost over 150 fps at first. Later I replace the seal that looked new and put the old one back in and picked almost that much back up.

rsterne · « **Reply #16 on:** November 01, 2011, 12:14:43 AM »

Accordng to the information I have seen, it's the Hatsan 135 that has the 30mm ID chamber, and a longer stroke than the Webley Patriot.... 120 mm vs. 114 for the Patriot....

Bob

Bryan Heimann · « **Reply #17 on:** November 02, 2011, 06:33:51 PM »

Quote from: rsterne on November 01, 2011, 12:14:43 AM

Accordng to the information I have seen, it's the Hatsan 135 that has the 30mm ID chamber, and a longer stroke than the Webley Patriot.... 120 mm vs. 114 for the Patriot....

Bob

good to know! more volume and has the SAS

rsterne · « **Reply #18 on:** November 02, 2011, 06:39:34 PM »

The Hatsan 135 has the biggest swept volume I have seen mentioned anywhere.... I have seen it listed at 85 cc and 87 cc.... The lower figure would be correct if the diameter is 30mm.... while the upper figure would be right if the diameter was 30.5mm.... Both sets of data had the dimensions rounded off to the nearest mm.... but above pete said the Patriot was 30.5mm ID.... so just maybe the 135 is, indeed, a long stroke Patriot....

Bob

Pete · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2011, 07:46:50 PM »

Quote from: rsterne on November 02, 2011, 06:39:34 PM

The Hatsan 135 has the biggest swept volume I have seen mentioned anywhere.... I have seen it listed at 85 cc and 87 cc.... The lower figure would be correct if the diameter is 30mm.... while the upper figure would be right if the diameter was 30.5mm.... Both sets of data had the dimensions rounded off to the nearest mm.... but above pete said the Patriot was 30.5mm ID.... so just maybe the 135 is, indeed, a long stroke Patriot....

Bob

Ok..the Hatsan Mod 125 has a plastic stock..
The Hatsan Mod 135 is the Wood stock version
of the Mod 125..
The Mod 125 & Mod 135 use the SAME action...
Both the Mod 125 & Mod 135 have a 28mm ID tube..
NO Hatsan branded gun uses a tube ID Bigger than 28mm ID
The Webley Patriot is a completely diffrent action...

This diffrent mod numbers for diffrent stocks can be followed though
most of the Hatsan range...

This is how it works....

Mod 55 .177 wood stock..
Mod 60 .22 wood stock..
Mod 70 .177 plastic stock..
Mod 75 .22 plastic stock..
Mod 80 .177 plastic up market stock...
Mod 85 .22 plastic up market stock..
ALL THESE GUNS USE THE SAME ACTION.. 26.75mm ID tube...

Mod 125 .177 / .22 / .25 plastic stock...
Mod 135 .177 / .22 /.25 wood stock..
BOTH USE THE SAME ACTION... 28mm ID tube...

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Walther Talon Magnum/Falcon Hunters in .25 cal

Author Topic: Walther Talon Magnum/Falcon Hunters in .25 cal (Read 16031 times))

Skjold

Skjold

Skjold