The Story of "FUBAR".- A not so short-story

[HectorMedina]

Another title could be
"Don't send a precious gun to an amateur", ROFL!

In any case, this is a story with a happy ending, or at least a happy "Season 1" finale. There may be further developments, that will be up to the owner, but in essence, the "gist" of the story is done.

Many of you know that I like to give "funky" names to some guns. Like that case of a D48 that had a sub-dimensioned mechanisms tube and had to be hand fitted to the compression chamber, which was interesting because it provided the user with a "buttoned" feel when there were no buttons. That gun ended with the Nickname "$1.48" because of a joke made by the owner when we were discussing the issues and said:
"Well, you can have a go, the worst that can happen is that your work will add a Dollar Fortyeight to the value of the gun"

And so, this gun's name is from now on "FUBAR"
But, let's start at the beginning:

My section of the story starts when a friend asked me if I could take a look into a Walther LGV (2k's version) that had been badly mangled by a "tuner".
The origin was murky because the original tuner had not finished the work, someone else had picked up the gun, and upon receipt the gun was "badly put together".

I said yes, and set apart a slot of time in my work calendar.

Time passed and when the slot came up and I contacted my friend, he told me he had sent it to a well known tuner on the West Coast.
"No worries, no sweat, Matey!"
Life went on.
After more months had passed I received an offer from my friend, asking me if I would pay the shipping of the basket case. The West Coast tuner had declared the rifle "FUBAR" ( I had to look it up in my Technical Dictionary) and my friend was heartbroken. So he decided that by gifting the gun to me, it could at least have an honorable "after-life" as a "parts gun".

I thanked him profusely because LGV's are one of my favourite guns and I just could not imagine how badly treated the gun had been to merit the trip to the slaughterhouse. Like an old horse being sent for meat, bonemeal and hoof glue... It also made me VERY sad.

But, still, if that was what my friend wanted to do, so be it. Sent him a USPS MO and the gun came.
In its original box, but all disassembled. One towel roll taped with the main tube, another with the stock, another with the barrel and another with the trigger.

I took the mechanism out and started looking at it. From the begining it struck me that the main pivot (forks to barrel-block)  was not the appropriate one. It was short and the ends were not "Walther".

So, a phone conversation ensued with my friend where it was obvious that the gun had gone from one tuner/mechanic to another, without really looking at the gun with respect.

But after some careful measurements and some EMails and some long distance calls, I found the part that was needed in Germany, pulled a few strings, got the promise of sending the part; and called my friend.

And so, we agreed that he would pay for the part and the basic labour of installing said part, and that he wanted the gun back.

But the main thing in this post is the number of strange things that were found in the gun.
Because I am packing today for my trip, the post will be mainly pictures. If there is anything that needs discussing, we'll take it as time allows.

The first thing I did was to check the barrel. If the barrel was not reasonably uniform, and if the barrel did not engrave quality pellets in an appropriate manner, there was no sense in putting more hard work into an "iffy" barrel. But this barrel was good. It presented restrictions along the bore, but I sensed that, at least two of them were not from manufacturing, and so a long and deep cleaning with JB bore paste ensued.
As expected, the constrictions disappeared and we ended up with a nice barrel that has the two normal constrictions in all break barrels:  where the barrel is press-fit into the breechblock and at the choke.
Even with this constrictions, the passage of the pellet was smooth.

Once that was done, we tackled the power plant. The spring that was installed had a medium fit to the guide. Not what I would regard as a professional job, but reasonable, however, it was lighter (thinner wire) than the OEM spring, with a faster pitch and one big problem:


The spring had one open end and one closed end.



The open end was inserted into the guide (rear) and the closed one into the TopHat. Surely someone thought that if Vortek is doing this, it cannot be bad. Well, I found the TopHat end of the spring severely crooked. Had to straighten it.

Then I cut a ¼ coil of the open end:


Prep the end:


And proceeded to forge close:


Finally, sand the ends ensuring that BOTH ends are SQUARE:


The spring now stood on both ends on its own:




The TopHat fitted squarely:


Then we looked at the piston's seal, not oversprung, but clearly the subject of some "dieseling":


And we decided to change the seal:


The seal showed some "gumming up" OR someone decided that one of the relevant characteristics of the Walther seal was a nuisance and decided to glue it:


A new seal was installed:


We thoroughly cleaned all the parts from oils and greases and in their turn, they got lubed with Ultimox 226.
I measured the TP, just to ensure that we were dealing with the appropriate-for-power chassis:


By then (and some help from THE Man upstairs), the part had arrived from Germany and I compared it with the one we had on hand:


No wonder the WC tuner had declared the gun "FUBAR"! There is no way such a short bolt can offer enough rigidity in the lock-up to ensure the accuracy that these guns are known for.

On TOP of the issue of the length of the bolt was that the thread was different: The OEM part is M7 fine thread, the "salvage" part was M7 coarse.
Luckily I had a carbide "Thread forming" tap and the steel could then be "pushed back into place" more than re-cutting a re-cut thread. Still, this is not as strong as the OEM thread and therefore, caution must be applied when torqueing the main pivot and the counter-nut.
One important aspect, and possibly the origin of the "cross-threaded" bolt problem is that, to install the main pivot bolt, the LOCK of the barrel block needs to be depressed.
At first it seems that the bolt has bottomed:


But no, it has only reached the point where the locking lever needs to be pulled to allow further entry:


To prevent the need of overtightening the main pivot bolt and the counternut, we turned to dimension two sets of Nord--Loc washers and installed them, in this way, the torque that has been set will not move.
The forks are not overly tight, but neither are they loose, they are just to the point where the barrel wants to hold when cocked. The spacer washers were lubed with 105 Ultimox oil.
There is no slop, but there is no force either.


At this point, with the action assembled, I looked into the towel wrap that had the stock, but . . .¿WHAT?  the stock was there, but no trigger guard, no cocking lever pushers/guides, no springs.
I can easily replace the bolts and the springs, but these little plastic pieces are as rare as the proverbial "hens teeth".
So a quick call to my friend, which received no response and then an EMail, gave me time to look into trying to get those parts.

It would have been almost impossible. Special parts would have had to be made and the budget would have skyrocketed.

Luckily, my friend found the parts in his "parts stash", he mailed them to me and I was able to put the complete gun back together.

At first I thought we had a problem, because the trigger guard would not enter the assembled gun, but then I remembered that the first production lots had this problem, the housing is too big where the trigger weight adjustment screw is located and the trigger guard needs to be "fitted" to the housing, so we did it:




This is how it looks assembled:


We installed flat washers at the bottom of the stock's forearm recesses:


And used Nord-Loc washers there also.

With the gun now complete, I slapped a test scope and tested several pellets.
The barrel does NOT like QYS, BFT, or FTT, but the gun seems to like JSB's 4.52/8.44 which is an advantage because they are the most prolific production runs by JSB.
It would also be interesting to test the AA Field Diabolo in this rifle.

For a gun that has a new piston and is barely making 11 ft-lbs, I think the gun shoots well:


The rifle definitely has potential. Some tuning of the muzzle nut, perhaps some spacing at the rear end of the mainspring, some playing with different lubes in the pellets, a good scope and some testing different holds for this peculiar "Master" stock will undoubtedly yield many hours of fun and achievements.

Am I regretting let this gun go back? Nope!

As a professional, my job is to not only have the technical knowledge, but to be part of a larger, worldwide, "fraternity" where we try to help each other, and so, getting that "unobtainum" part is just one aspect that makes a difference between an Airgunsmith and an Airgun Mechanic.

And, so, as I am packing my gun and things to go to Italy, I am also packing this gun that came back from the dead.

I hope my friend enjoys his "second honeymoon" with the old girl. There is lots to do still, and I am sure he can deal with the things that need to be done.

Hope you enjoyed the read and a small peek into the many details that make a simple "fix".

;-)

Keep well and shoot straight!









HM










 

[Madd Hatter]

Fubar is the name of my dog! LoL 😅😅 Enjoyable read, thanks.

[Yogi]

I believe "FUBAR" and "SNAFU" have their origins in WW2.  At least that is what an old Army guy told me....

Hector-Why are M7 bolts so hard to find.  Even in Europe they are "hens teeth".
Why do companies use them if they are unobtainable?

Have fun on your trip and GOOD LUCK!

-Yogi

[JuryRigger]

A labor of love-very much enjoyed the read; thank you for posting it up 
Hope you have a safe and pleasant journey,
Jesse

[Motorhead]

Seen this rifle, handled this rifle ....
Unless you know the WHOLE truth on this FUBAR ( Not done by myself ) When asked to salvage what I could to make one operational gun from two this post is a 100% BS mud slinging to make your stated superior prowess the point of the read.

Lets state the whole truth here ....  Uglymikes rifle, Sent to a member here who offered tuning services closer to Nebraska, then said tuner had suddenly died while some sort of work was being done to it ( No clue what that was ).
From there rifle was sent to another forum member to get assembled  &  after returning to original owner was told by said member It never shot for Poop !
Somewhere, some place some major Ham fist wrenching was done.

At this juncture I was asked to salvage what i could making one good rifle from two sent to my shop for this request. Owner DID NOT wish to have me look at or fix the wreck that your thread speaks of !!!

West coast tuner ?   If your going to shoot shots over the bow ... You had better have the whole story from those involved directly and Not make accusations having just one distorted side of the story   

Really Hector

Scott S

[Toxylon]

So, Hector,

I gather you need to be Hector to get the pivot bolt assembly for the LGV as a spare? I would very much like to have one, but then, I'm a nobody with no strings to pull. Just with an LGV that's on its way to becoming my forever gun. And nothing lasts forever, just the Earth and Skies...

[avator]

So, Hector,

I gather you need to be Hector to get the pivot bolt assembly for the LGV as a spare? I would very much like to have one, but then, I'm a nobody with no strings to pull. Just with an LGV that's on its way to becoming my forever gun. And nothing lasts forever, just the Earth and Skies...

That's no longer a promise.

[HectorMedina]

Seen this rifle, handled this rifle ....
Unless you know the WHOLE truth on this FUBAR ( Not done by myself ) When asked to salvage what I could to make one operational gun from two this post is a 100% BS mud slinging to make your stated superior prowess the point of the read.

Lets state the whole truth here ....  Uglymikes rifle, Sent to a member here who offered tuning services closer to Nebraska, then said tuner had suddenly died while some sort of work was being done to it ( No clue what that was ).
From there rifle was sent to another forum member to get assembled  &  after returning to original owner was told by said member It never shot for Poop !
Somewhere, some place some major Ham fist wrenching was done.

At this juncture I was asked to salvage what i could making one good rifle from two sent to my shop for this request. Owner DID NOT wish to have me look at or fix the wreck that your thread speaks of !!!

West coast tuner ?   If your going to shoot shots over the bow ... You had better have the whole story from those involved directly and Not make accusations having just one distorted side of the story   

Really Hector

Scott S

Scott;

Since you decided to put names to the story, let me raise a few points:

1.- I mentioned that there were, at least 3 people (apart from the owner and me) in this story.
2.- I also mentioned that it was understandable that you declared the gun "FUBAR"
3.- I was not informed of the "two guns into one" aspect

I still do not see a reason to call an action "FUBAR" just because it is missing a bolt.
A bolt, that any reasonable machinist could have made in a hobby lathe.
Whether using the new thread or the old, it is a simple axle bolt. There is no "magic" to it.

As to the gun shooting "doo-doo", well, it was understandable given the leading along the bore. Something that was corrected with a simple deep clean. It IS a "picky" bore, and I mention that the gun does not like three of the finest pellets in current production; part of the issue is the missing ft-lb. At 11 ft-lbs some tight bores (and this is a tight bore for a Walther barrel) become picky.
I am sure it will also need to use lubed pellets. Again, untypical of a Walther barrel but then no two barrels are exactly the same and we all accept that.

NOW

Quick question.-

WHO wrote the "FUBAR 0.177" for parts only" on the painters blue tape that IS STILL attached to the action?

I was told it was you.

If it wasn't then I was given incorrect information.

And I write from the information at hand.

I will gladly clarify here in writing anything I write about and recognize when a mistake was made.

I have no problem accepting I am human.

So, Who wrote "FUBAR"?

Keep well and shoot straight!








HM

[HectorMedina]

So, Hector,

I gather you need to be Hector to get the pivot bolt assembly for the LGV as a spare? I would very much like to have one, but then, I'm a nobody with no strings to pull. Just with an LGV that's on its way to becoming my forever gun. And nothing lasts forever, just the Earth and Skies...

"Just the earth and the sky" beautifully Finnish of you. Thanks!

We Americans would say: "And death and taxes . . ."

LOL!

The axle/pivot bolt in a break barrel is probably, the most robust part in the gun. IF it fails, it is, 90% of the cases, Human Error.

As a consolation, I can tell you that, MOST probably, if I had not been able to get the OEM part, I would have turned the bolt:
You start from an M8 bolt of the appropriate steel/grade, anneal it, turn it down, cut the thread, polish it real nice.
Temper it and draw it, then re-polish to fit.

Yes it is an expensive bolt made to order (about $200 for the bolt alone), but that is one of the things that comes along when buying airguns that are so advanced for their times that they go out of production rather suddenly.
That is why I waited to get the part before reversing a purchase I had made of a gun, and offering instead a repair.
There is another alternative I discussed with the owner: Using a DIANA 34 EMS bolt. Different style, but usable. A much better substitution than the small HW bolt used.

Again, Ilimakko. Some just swap parts. Some go deeper into the craft.

Keep well and shoot straight!







HM

[HectorMedina]

I believe "FUBAR" and "SNAFU" have their origins in WW2.  At least that is what an old Army guy told me....

Hector-Why are M7 bolts so hard to find.  Even in Europe they are "hens teeth".
Why do companies use them if they are unobtainable?

Have fun on your trip and GOOD LUCK!

-Yogi

I guess it is a historical question.
It would be similar to the reason why Whitworth 55 degrees threads are found in all High End British airguns (H&H, RIGBY, Joseph Manton, etc).
When the gunsmithing trade started that was the first standard, and so it was adopted, it worked and now it is almost impossible to change.

Surely when the modern breakbarrel was first designed (with a basculating breechblock), the M6 was deemed too small for the forces produced and the steels available at an economic price; and the M8 was deemed too large for the size of the breechblock, necessitating a too large/heavy a breechblock.
Also, it happened that when DIN, got standardized into the ISO, the DIN lost the odd numbered threads because for industrial purposes, the even dimensions are more than enough.

Still, tradition calls for a M7 pivot bolt on break barrels. And even the 34 EMS has carried that flag forward.

;-)

Keep well and shoot straight!






HM

[Toxylon]

Well, the "Nothing lasts forever, but the earth and sky" was lifted directly off a Kansas song...as American as it gets 

[avator]

"Dust in the wind" from Leftoverture.

[nced]

Good read! Thanks for sharing! 

[MDriskill]

Great thread! I can only dream of possessing this level of mechanical skills...

[nced]

I believe "FUBAR" and "SNAFU" have their origins in WW2.  At least that is what an old Army guy told me....

Hector-Why are M7 bolts so hard to find.  Even in Europe they are "hens teeth".
Why do companies use them if they are unobtainable?

Have fun on your trip and GOOD LUCK!

-Yogi

"Why are M7 bolts so hard to find",
Even harder to find is M7x0.75 pitch used for the HW pivot bolt thread instead of the standard M7x1 pitch.

I learned that when the threads of my Beeman R9 pivot bolt "jam nut" stripped out. After inspection I noticed that the factory split lock washer took op a few available threads in the shallow lock nut so only a few threads were left to actually lock the pivot bolt in place. My solution was to make my own however I found it difficult to even find a M7x0.75 die. To my surprise I found a cheap carbon steel tap and die set at Harbor Freight that included both M7x1 and M7x0.75 tap and die. Carbon steel isn't the "best" material for a tap and die however I figured that it would be OK for a few uses. I don't know if these sets are still available but a few years ago when I bought mine it cost only about $17......


Anywhoo, the homemade M7x0.75 jam nut worked well and I found that the hex socket was better for tightening than the factory slotted jam nut and I even made other replacement screws by machining socket head cap screws and using my cheap Harbor Freight dies.......

[Novagun]

That was an interesting  article. Thank you for the time taken to write it. There was a good bit for an amateur airgun mechanic to learn about guns and professionals .
Kiaora taatou.

[HectorMedina]

At present in Italy.

Sorry for the delayed answer.

Ed is correct, the "fine" thread makes the M7 even more rare.

Specialty taps and dies are available, but prices are somewhat prohibitive. My "thread forming" tap costed what Ed's set cost. 

We all learn as we go and we should never stop learning.

Thanks for reading!






HM

[jimk1963]

"Dust in the wind" from Leftoverture.

Allow me to add critical info to this fantastic article - the song “Dust in the Wind” is from the album “Point of No Return”, the follow-up album to “Leftoverture”. 🥳

[phoebeisis]

Great read

Not being really up on who does what tuning air guns-I had NO IDEA who had done what to the rifle

Entertaining and informative.  and the  waaaay too polite clashes-add to the interest!

Yeah this forum is sooo polite-a good thing of course!

Thanks all

Charlie


PS I still LOVE my Diana 350 magnum-.177 it shoots double pellets-1st one rolled between hard wood so it will slide deep into/past chamber-but still

 be "tight"-

to decrease risk of damage from 5.2 grain TIN pellets-I don't use the more common Pb alloy pellets.Strictly indoor shooting-hallway-

[avator]

"Dust in the wind" from Leftoverture.

Allow me to add critical info to this fantastic article - the song “Dust in the Wind” is from the album “Point of No Return”, the follow-up album to “Leftoverture”. 🥳

I stand corrected... thank you.