Airgun vs PB barrel break in

[Ribbonstone]

Lets be fair...have new fire arms rifles that have never seen a jacketed bullet.  Shot well from the start, but would foul to inaccuracy. Just the repeated pattern of cleaning extended the number of shots before needing cleaning again. Now, those barrels don't have a detectable problem.  Lapping / polishing might have gotten to the same place faster, didn't see a need to do that as nothing was wrong with accuracy from the start.


Smokeless powder does leave a burnt residue; it's not a100% effficent solid to gas conversion.  That dry residue will collect moisture in my enviroment.  So every firearm barrel will get at least a two-patch clean (one damp, one dry) after every shooting session just for the possibility of rusting. 

The only residue in airgun barrels is normally a slight cloating of lube...they can go "forever" without really needing to be cleaned, but they also get a simple anti-rust type cleaning now and again.

[Bayman]

Clean your d**n barrel, shoot it until it's not accurate, and then clean it again."

Yeah this!

[SteveP-52]

Absolute nobody. Never will be one of the GTA "names". Don't care and unlike some, NOT why I joined GTA...lol.
Only been at this 7 years, but I learned my springer break in right here on GTA.

Remove from box. Wipe down the outside. Check both the leade and crown. Clean the barrel. Check...your...screws.
Now take rifle, tin of pellets, go outside and shoot. Empty the tin. Repeat. Most of all, have fun.

Oh, somewhere around 150-200 shots I mount scope of choice but that's another topic.

[HectorMedina]

@ Peter

Just a few notes:
a) Cleaning at short intervals.- Clearly you have not been to a long range BPCR match. ;-)
In that discipline, it is EXPECTED that you take the time and the effort to clean the barrel after EVERY shot.
Of course, some people do not do it. Well, those people do not place at the top. They/I may have a lot of fun (I would be among those, BTW, shooting Pyrodex or other stuff), but I would not place at the top.

I have a good friend who had a very peculiar barrel: It would shoot very well for the first 100 shots and then go to &^^&. It was a DIANA barrel, and we examined it several times. What I concluded (but we have no way of proving it), is that a steady diet of boxed Crosman Premiers (this was early 10's, so about 12 years ago), with their "bit above normal" Sb composition had "diffused" a bit of Sb into the steel of the barrel, especially at the choke, and that section of the barrel attracted and retained lead like no tomorrow.
We cleaned that barrel to bare metal with JB Bore Paste, also with Corbin's BR bore clean, and, still it happened again and again.
BUT : . . . . Following HIS knowledge of HIS barrel he consistently placed top honors, even in the WFTC's.

I started using the shoot/clean method after I posted the entries about "Fit of pellet to the rifling" and "Durango Kid" (the QYS pellets). Putting all that bunch of pellets through NEW AND USED barrels showed me that one important factor in the inaccuracy of a barrel was the "Shards" of lead that one pellet left for the other to pick up and have a "tail" that would create abnormal spin motions.
The MINUTE marks of the rifling buttons can easily be taken out with some shooting / JB Bore lapping / Final Finish technique, but it is easier on the mechanisms to use BOTH shooting and simple cleaning.

2.- As a professional gunsmith I cannot AFFORD to have a barrel misbehave. It would take too much time to correct and I really do not want the customer to have problems. So, to ME, spending those 20 mins extra time on the first firings makes sense. It is sort of an "insurance". As you say, each one of us should do what is best for each.

3.- Even Army snipers have relatively large targets to shoot at, AND, if you really read the detailed reports of those "mile long" shots, you see that they hit on the 3rd, 4th and even 5th shot. So, the expectations in almost ALL military applications are a bit under the expectations we place in our airguns.

@ B-4
Thank you.

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

[theLBC]

this is an interesting topic, but might suffer from the fact that folks have widely varying requirements and expectations for "accuracy" or consistency.
i suspect that for many, there is little practical benefit to cleaning as often as somebody that is competing.

as far as comparing pb to air guns (pcp in particular), i think the lack of recoil and ease of shooting makes everything else matter a bit more.
it doesn't matter to my buddies that my pb is capable of 1/2moa, because they aren't 1/2 moa shooters behind a .308, but they can shoot my airgun about as well as i can on the first try...

[Thane]

Like most techniques you have to measure results for yourself. There is a lot of incredible experience shared here, but if I can't see it on target working for me... I drop it. Maybe for a later try once the majors are in order and finer details can be observed.

The fun part is trying it out for yourself. Blindly following rituals, not so fun and boarders on obsessive compulsive disorder... I have to go weigh, size and sort my pellets now...

[subscriber]

Hector,

Thanks for the additional info.  I don't doubt your experience is real.  I am a believer in, keep doing what works for you.

Seasonal hunters with a bag limit of one prefer to shoot one shot at their prey.  That first shot is not only a "cold bore shot", it may be the first shot after cleaning.  Thus it makes sense to sight in for that first shot.

"Rapid fire" pistol competition shooters don't have time to clean between shots.  They want their barrels to shoot predictably between cleanings, and care less about the first shot after cleaning.

My point is that each type of discipline or application has different standards for single round precision, and opportunities for cleaning.  In a very slow fire competitions you may choose to stay in the freshly cleaned mode.   Where time is part of the scoring, it is better to be in the stable POI that occurs for so many dozen or hundreds of shots.  Certainly, when taking enemy fire you tend not to care about barrel fouling as much as the potential fouling in your shorts

Your friend's experience with shooting Crosman pellets has me wondering if his case has more to do with the high antimony content pellets, than that barrel's steel.   A number of GTA forum members love Crosman single die bulk pack CPL pellets, and have shot them exclusively, including from Weihrauchs.  I remember their posts about runaway lead fouling at the start of the choke, filling in the rifling grooves, and blowing groups.  These barrels needed aggressive bronze wire brush cleaning with lead removing solvents to get their accuracy back.

Rather than cleaning after every shot, or short intervals, they started washing and lubing their Crosman pellets.  This enabled them to use one or two patches at long intervals, or applied only when there was any sign of fliers.  Now that the single die Crosman bulk pack pellets seem to be unavailable, many of the same CPL proponents have switched to JSB or H&N pellets.   If JSB pellets foul a barrel badly after 100 shots, the barrel is probably rough.  Simple cleaning won't fix that.

The problem with any of us being pedantic about the principle behind our observations is that there are many overlapping causes.  Often more than two factors are involved.  These may not apply to other people, or even to us, but we apply cheap or free insurance to head off trouble anyway.   We may feel negligent if we don't apply what we know.

I do this too - even if the bulk of people on this forum deem it unnecessary.  As Ribbonstone mentioned about corrosion protection, I do the same thing to my airguns and PBs; whether they need it or not.  After shooting, I pull two oily patches through the barrel with the purpose of applying a moisture barrier.  The fact is that the first patch especially comes out with visible "dirt" on it. So in that sense I have cleaned the barrel.   

However, my definition of cleaning is not the act of passing a patch through the barrel.  It is multiple patches, or a brush (if that is what it takes) and an appropriate solvent applied, until the bore has the expected gloss level when patched dry.  This includes the lands looking crisp with no material stuck in the corners. 

A clean barrel will take a wet patch and a tight fitting dry patch, with neither showing any dirt on them.   For some, this includes a copper solvent patch coming out with no hint of blue or green on it.

Now, my preference is not to "deep clean" if I can get away without it.  The simple reason is because the point of impact tends to be disturbed, until a number of shots have been fired.   Certainly, much has been written about cleaning copper fouling from PB rifle barrels.  The common factor that converges is that cleaning all the copper out is a fool's errand.  At least after the barrel is deemed broken in.

The barrel I mentioned in an earlier reply, with the copper "foil" visible near the muzzle, after 300 rounds, had all 300 fired in one session; on one day.  I have no doubt that this particular barrel would have benefited from having the copper removed early by means of break-in cleaning, to prevent a "speed bump" forming that ripped more copper off subsequent bullets. 

However, I was shooting at bowling pins swinging from nylon cord, offhand at 25 yards, and had no problem hitting them.  So, whatever the effect on group size that copper fouling had, it had no effect on the practical accuracy for that "mission".   The latter was more about speed and timing than MOA.  This was with a Mini-14.   Not a long range precision rifle.

[SteveP-52]

Mr. Nobody here again. I don't consider myself one bit guilty for posting a reply since mine was about airguns. While the question of Airgun barrel break in is allowable, PB's aren't.
GTA is an airgun forum. Or at least it used to be solely an airgun forum. Anymore, I wonder considering the regular mention of PB's.

GTA Rules 3 and 3a, kids:
3- Subjects not related to airguns should be addressed in the “Back Room” and not on the main forums. NO DISCUSSIONS OF RELIGIOUS OR POLITICAL SUBJECTS PERMITTED AT ALL.
   (3a)- Firearm and/or Airsoft Discussions are NOT PERMITTED (we ARE an airgun forum) and will be Deleted. Repeat Offences will result in Administrative actions which can include direct warnings, probationary periods, or deletion of membership account.

Sad a complete nobody has to mention Forum Rules. Would have thought at least a moderator would have locked this for review by now.

[subscriber]

 Steve,

If you believe that barrel break-in discussions that compare airguns to firearms violates the rules, ask the mods to delete the entire thread.     Then do the same for every post where you have mentioned firearms in any context.  Starting with the one below.

I got back into air gunning in April of 2015 as a safe way to control some pests in my father's backyard and as he lives inside the town limits, rimfire rifles were not an option.

[SteveP-52]

My minor mention of rimfire not being an option for me went into no other detail than that simple and very minor fact. Freely admit I've made minor mention it's
not an option for me and I say minor because I never went any farther than that, let alone long written posts on the subject like this thread is with the topic flat
stating "Airgun vs PB".
Since you seem bored enough you went digging through 6 1/2 years of my posts all the way back to 2015 to find that, why not dig through every one of them to
find the other minor mentions I've made and post them here for all of us. You'll find in those I never got into any long winded discussions about it either...lol.

[subscriber]

Steve,

I sampled more of your posts.  One is enough to make my point:

It is almost impossible to talk about airguns without inferring something about PBs.  Where does rifling come from?  Until recently, why do so many airgun barrels have a 1:16 twist. The current popularity of slug shooting airguns that are as potent as PBs has a lot of cross talk when it comes to projectile design and ballistics.

Again, if this thread title offends you simply report it to the mods.   It is impossible to discuss this topic without using naughty words; so get rid of the whole thing. 

If I am the chief offender, petition to have me banned.   Asking people who put in effort to make sense of the OP's question, why they get to violate the rules, is like asking a bank robber why he can get away with it.  Don't argue with the perp.  Call the cops.

As for a "minor mention"; that is open to interpretation.

[BRAVO_4]

@ Peter

Just a few notes:
a) Cleaning at short intervals.- Clearly you have not been to a long range BPCR match. ;-)
In that discipline, it is EXPECTED that you take the time and the effort to clean the barrel after EVERY shot.
Of course, some people do not do it. Well, those people do not place at the top. They/I may have a lot of fun (I would be among those, BTW, shooting Pyrodex or other stuff), but I would not place at the top.

I have a good friend who had a very peculiar barrel: It would shoot very well for the first 100 shots and then go to &^^&. It was a DIANA barrel, and we examined it several times. What I concluded (but we have no way of proving it), is that a steady diet of boxed Crosman Premiers (this was early 10's, so about 12 years ago), with their "bit above normal" Sb composition had "diffused" a bit of Sb into the steel of the barrel, especially at the choke, and that section of the barrel attracted and retained lead like no tomorrow.
We cleaned that barrel to bare metal with JB Bore Paste, also with Corbin's BR bore clean, and, still it happened again and again.
BUT : . . . . Following HIS knowledge of HIS barrel he consistently placed top honors, even in the WFTC's.

I started using the shoot/clean method after I posted the entries about "Fit of pellet to the rifling" and "Durango Kid" (the QYS pellets). Putting all that bunch of pellets through NEW AND USED barrels showed me that one important factor in the inaccuracy of a barrel was the "Shards" of lead that one pellet left for the other to pick up and have a "tail" that would create abnormal spin motions.
The MINUTE marks of the rifling buttons can easily be taken out with some shooting / JB Bore lapping / Final Finish technique, but it is easier on the mechanisms to use BOTH shooting and simple cleaning.

2.- As a professional gunsmith I cannot AFFORD to have a barrel misbehave. It would take too much time to correct and I really do not want the customer to have problems. So, to ME, spending those 20 mins extra time on the first firings makes sense. It is sort of an "insurance". As you say, each one of us should do what is best for each.

3.- Even Army snipers have relatively large targets to shoot at, AND, if you really read the detailed reports of those "mile long" shots, you see that they hit on the 3rd, 4th and even 5th shot. So, the expectations in almost ALL military applications are a bit under the expectations we place in our airguns.

@ B-4
Thank you.

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

Thomas Gonzalez does not follow a break in procedure for his rifles. I know. I asked him if he does when he was shooting the 360° golf course with myself myself Todd Hodnett, who also does not. Two of the most talented precision shooters on the planet.

For every trophy winner that follows a, "clean after every shot for x amount of shots" break in procedure, you'll find one that doesn't. And the numbers are dwindling.

[HectorMedina]

Thomas Gonzalez does not follow a break in procedure for his rifles. I know. I asked him if he does when he was shooting the 360° golf course with myself myself Todd Hodnett, who also does not. Two of the most talented precision shooters on the planet.

For every trophy winner that follows a, "clean after every shot for x amount of shots" break in procedure, you'll find one that doesn't. And the numbers are dwindling.

B-4.- I am SURE you are right. Personally, I have been somewhat disconnected from the PB scene for quite a number of years, so I do not have the current names of stars handy.

And, please, do not take this the wrong way: What PB's do can have MANY reasons to be different from what airgunners do. For OUR (airgunners) purposes, what Harry Pope did almost 80 years ago is more relevant than what all the current hot/top-shots in the PLRR/MERSA/... etc. games are doing.
Airguns (even PCP's)  are primitive in comparison with current PB'ing technology.
SO...
Airgunners need to do what the current pellet and barrel making techniques require/allow them to do. For some, it may be the same, for others, it will not.

If you want a detailed discussion about WHY some airgunners think the break-in procedure is important (and I suggested this from my first post in this thread), then let's start another thread and address those details.
I feel that the differences between the two have been stated and that answers your basic question.
If you need more depth then, IMHO, we need to open a different thread.

Apologies in advance if I am being impolite.

Keep well and shoot straight!






HM

[Novagun]

Well here we go again. Rules should be observed in the breaking.  Steve52, not sure if I got that right . The sun is past the yard arm in Manakau. A good thread and informative even if it did break the rules . Incidently I reckon it did not. It was not firearms discussion. Never-mind. Good advice to get a tin of pellets and shoot and repeat.Hector said we should start a new thread and he didn't. I am going to start a new thread which will invite repetition of existing documentation just to see if there is more mileage to cover.

[Thane]

No discussion of FX Smooth Twist barrels?

I clean mine between sessions, more of a ritual than need.

[HectorMedina]

Well here we go again. Rules should be observed in the breaking.  Steve52, not sure if I got that right . The sun is past the yard arm in Manakau. A good thread and informative even if it did break the rules . Incidently I reckon it did not. It was not firearms discussion. Never-mind. Good advice to get a tin of pellets and shoot and repeat.Hector said we should start a new thread and he didn't. I am going to start a new thread which will invite repetition of existing documentation just to see if there is more mileage to cover.

Thanks, Hugh!

HM