Airgun vs PB barrel break in

[BRAVO_4]

First and foremost, I'm mot trying to start a war here. I'm simply trying to understand the reasoning behind barrel break in for an air rifle.

So; when I say I've done a lot of firearm shooting in a lot of places, I'm not sure that really covers it. My grandfather bought me my first. 22 at the age of 7, and by 8 I was shooting competitions. I traveled the world shooting and training while in the army, and when I exited the military in 2015, I continued to shoot certain types of competitions, mainly military style long range shoots, and to this day shoot an average of around 5k rounds a month total. I have been and always will be a student of shooting.

I've met so many people long the way with so much more knowledge and skill than I'll ever have, and I make it a point to annoy those people with questions whenever I meet them. Some of those people I've met and badgered include; Stan Riverbank, Mike Rock, Bryan Litz, Todd Hodnett on several occasions, Kelly McMillan, John Krieger, just to name a few. With every one of these people, I've had one particular conversation with one particular conclusion; shoot/clean/shoot/clean barrel break in is nonsense. ALL of their advice has been the same. Clean your new barrel thoroughly and start shooting it. I generally tend to lean on this advice as the truth when it comes out of the mouth of a barrel maker like Krieger, even if the others disagreed with him. But they don't. Not to mention nearly every major manufacturer will give you the same advice.

Now, I have seen more than a few posts here suggesting new airgun shooters "run in" their guns. So my question is this; what are the characteristics of air rifles that make clean/shoot/clean/shoot barrel break in more suitable for them? Does it have something to do with springers in particular and dieseling? Is it actually worth it? Are we sure it has any advantages at all?

As I said, all I'm trying to do is gain understanding, but I've seen this particular topic bring out the unexpected, to put it kindly. So please, even though some of us may thoroughly disagree or not understand, let's please keep this one professional and on track, aye?

[K.O.]

every barrel is different...many different needs or non-needs... and there are many ways to go about it... for instance I have a Hyme .22 Hornet  tapered blank I may end up using in the Future... they hone their barrels before forging, no machining artifacts... probably no need for any work...

we have some using TJ barrel liners for barrels... Some may benefit from fire lapping...

heck some old barrels can benefit from fire lapping... follow link in my post... 
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=84163.0

whats the bore groove ratio rifling height steel it made of and all sorts of things... some barrels are very cheaply made and do not have a proper leade... and may have other issues... are you sending 5 fpe or 500..?

every barrel needs it own eval...

[Bayman]

My experience in years with PBs and Airguns is limited compared to some. I will state this, I've been serious about shooting airguns for about 8 years and tuning them about 7 years. I shoot about 80k pellets a year. Most at ten yards in my basement over a chronograph for testing and to pass the winter blues. While the amount of time I've been involved is short, the amount of data I've collected is considerable.

That said, all of my airguns are Weihrauch springers, so the bulk of my limited experience is with a single manufacturer. My experience may not be applicable to other rifles.

I initially never cleaned a barrel before shooting a gun. I didn't know better at the time. Turns out both the PBs and airguns I skipped the cleaning are very accurate. I've also done the tedious clean, shoot, clean shoot process on powder burners because it was recommended by the manufacturer. Those guns also shoot very accurately. I can't say that process had anything to do with the success of those rifles but they shoot well enough I'll continue to do that with centerfire PBs. I don't see how this process would work on an airgun. I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm saying, I don't see it.

Staying with airguns now, my limited experience shows that my most accurate guns are probably the first two I bought that I didn't clean once before shooting. I don't think that was the key. I think they shoot so good because they have the most shots down the pipe. It seems the more I shoot them the more they "break in".

I don't even clean the barrels anymore. I had to from time to time when using hard lead pellets that would cake in the barrel and upset accuracy. Since staying with softer lead pellets I haven't cleaned a barrel in my guns in years and tens of thousands of shots.

Much of barrel "break in" has to do with smoothing the rifling. This can be done mechanically like hand lapping, or chemically with fouling. Fouling sounds negative and can be at times but some fouling is a critical necessity for accuracy. This naturally morphs into a discussion about cleaning regiments I'll keep it to new barrel break in.

It's been my experience that at least with the Weihrauchs the more you shoot them the better they shoot. Some shoot great out of the box most will see major improvements in the first thousands shots. There's a lot of other stuff going on with a springer in the first thousands shots so not all the gains will be from the barrel itself.

It's my belief they just shoot better with age. Unless you are using hard lead pellets. Then you'll have to scrub the barrel occasionally and it may take a few hundred shots or more to recover proper accuracy.

My little Hw30 that I've had since 2016 has at least 100k shots through it and may be my most accurate rifle to thirty yards. After that it lacks the power to match the ballistics of my other guns. Last year I shot this ten shot group at ten yards with peep sights. I'll never be able to do it again but I'm sure the gun could.

If there's a point that these Weihrauch barrels wear out, I haven't found it. So far they only improved with age since switching away from hard lead pellets. Note the hard lead pellets may hasten break in but they will eventually foul excessively. The subsequent scrubbing will set you back some of the progress because it will take some time to properly foul the barrel and get decent accuracy again.

IMO there is an initial "break In" period but they continually improve with proper use.

[Ribbonstone]

Airguns of all types have either more moving parts and/or larger moving parts ...consider them more like PB semi-autos so far as parts needing to “mate up”.

Many airguns do need to be “shot in”, but it may not be the barrel that needs that so much as the mating up/smoothing out of other parts.  Springers come to mind more than PCP’s about settling down after shooting a bit, but they both have moving parts that benefit.

How much (if any) improvement the first 100 or so shots can be attributed to the barrel is really in doubt...but for sure, all airguns do shoot better (velocity variation/accuracy/consistency) after a break in, but I seriously doubt it’s from the barrel getting “better”.

Pellets just do not have the bearing area/friction/pressure to lap a rough barrel all by themselves.

Airgunners do get more rough barrels...it’s kind of random, with some great smooth barrels on  cheap rifles and some well respected brands  showing up with rough barrels.  It’s more a QC issue than anything else, with the more expensive brands/barrels getting the better QC...it improves the odds.

Stuck with a rough barrel that collects fouling, about the only choices are to replace it with a factory barrel (if offered), replace it with a bit higher grade air gun barrel (even if it is going to be expensive to have a blank machined and fitted), of try DIY lapping/smoothing/polishing.

We (as air gun nuts) are both notoriously cheap and deep into DIY.

Stuck with a barrel that leads up and shoots poorly, we’ll work on it. It’s kill or cure type of situation, but it’s “free” and it can cure a problem barrel (or kill it past any hope of redemption).

[north country gal]

As above, I've been shooting PB and AGs all my life and my take on breaking in a gun or barrel is that there is no hard and fast rule.

As for the air guns, I also shoot mostly springers, predominantly HWs. Some HWs have been superbly accurate right out of the box, no tuning needed and some have needed the usually recommended three tins of pellets to shoot their best, but all off them having being pleasingly accurate in the end. Definitely worth being patient win the slow starters.

Yes, now and then I have had an air gun that no amount of tuning or patience will turn into a great shooter, but those have actually been very much the exception to the rule. That said, I buy with quality in mind with particular attention to brands that have a rep for good barrels and making accurate guns. In the end, I think this has been a bigger factor for me with accuracy than how I break in a gun or what accuracy I get with any particular gun. To be sure, you don't have to pay the big bucks to get an accurate AG, but the odds of getting a clunker in the accuracy department go down with the good stuff.

[Madd Hatter]

As far as clean shoot clean shoot is concerned I'll go with the recommended procedure mentioned by Hector who knows a heck of a lot more about springers than the majority of GTA members. Back when I was into PB when I got a new pistol I would shoot nothing but jacketed bullets out of it for the first 500 rounds to smooth the barrel then switch over to cast swc that I reloaded and didn't have any problems with leading.

[airrob]

We don't want to think that modern guns (PB or Air) made with 21st century technology can be dirty, but that isn't always the case.  Some manufacturers do good; some do not.  So while cleaning a new barrel may not be needed, I don't think it could hurt either.  You can't be sure until you pull out the initial garbage.

I clean new purchases, but rarely clean my air guns after that.  Once in a blue moon.  My powder burners I clean more often simply because I don't shoot them that often, and hate to leave them dirty for months or a year at a time.

I see the OP and responses are mostly about cleaning for performance reasons. Well sometimes you just want it clean to be clean.  None of us actually NEED to clean our bathroom sinks.  They would still function as sinks a year later, but they wouldn't be pretty.

[subscriber]

Some barrel break-in procedures help the owner to shoot better by making that person feel better; rather than because they made a real difference to the barrel.  Unless fouling builds up rapidly, to the point where groups open up, there often seems not to be a need for intervention beyond initial cleaning to establish a benchmark.

Many owners or builders will polish or lap a new barrel bore, whether it needs it or not.  The common factor after such treatment seems to be that more shots can be taken before fouling becomes excessive - especially when shooting slugs.  With PCPs and pumpers, this early pre-emptive intervention often includes deburring the transfer port, leade, and crown.

I think that initial cleaning to remove whatever muck may be in the barrel is a good thing.  It enables one to get a good look at the barrel.  What it looks like, and then how it shoots soon inform any "next steps".  Rather than shoot a few shots and clean, I monitor the gloss level of the barrel and how well it groups.  If each pellet removes as much fouling as it lays down, the gloss level should stay about the same.  If the barrel shoots well and improves with more shots, then cleaning it back to bare metal because the procedure says so, seems contraindicated.

If the barrel looks dull after the initial cleaning; and / or fouls rapidly; and / or groups open up after fewer than so many shots; then cleaning the barrel again to see if this problem persists seem prudent.  If the fouling returns when shooting soft lead pellets such as JSBs, then my inclination is to do some limited number of fire lapping shots, before assessing the situation again.

If the intervention does not make much difference, then being more aggressive with the procedure may be indicated.  So, in that sense, I practice accelerated barrel break-in by means of abrasives; when indicated, rather than by default.

All of the above applies only after checking for other reasons why groups may be opening up.  This includes factors such as stock or sight screws that are, or have come loose.    It is useful to always look out for something else in the system that may be acting up; such as the level of dieseling seen with a new springer becoming worse after so many shots, rather than better.  Certainly, monitoring the projectile velocity to see if it settles with use, or becomes more erratic will help diagnose the source of unacceptable variability. 

Thus, not blaming potentially larger than expected groups on the surface condition of the bore when something else may be the more obvious cause.   This includes trying different pellets.   Some airguns just don't liker certain pellets, regardless of how clean the barrel is, or how carefully it has been broken in.

That said, shooting one or a handful of shots, before pulling one or more tight patches through the bore; over and over, so many times can't hurt the barrel either.  This assume that the pull-through or cleaning rod are clean and are not causing other harm.

Using wire brushes to clean the barrel is a another branch in the discussion.  Unless leading is stubborn, bronze brushes are not required very often.  Some people will state never to use them because of soft airgun barrels.  Others will state that their TJ liner, or hammer forged CZ barrel is made as robustly as any PB barrel, and can stand being cleaned the same way.

First do no harm...

[subscriber]

Any barrel break-in process and progress monitoring becomes moot, should the muzzle crown have a huge burr on it (for instance):   

Barrel troubleshooting and accurizing how-to:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130555.msg1288471#msg1288471

[subscriber]

Another thread about the need to clean airgun barrels; or not.    https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=92999.0

[Frank in Fairfield]

Motorhead is away at a field target match in Oregon but, when he gets back, Scott will see this post and he will state that he uses bronze brushes on his and customer’s barrels as part of the tuneup process.

Me?

I clean the air rifle barrels when I first buy them and then never again unless accuracy drops off.

My air arms do not shoot over 900fps and even with the soft lead in my pellets there is no chance of lead fouling.

A small amount oil is expelled into the springer barrels every shot, which is normal.

After awhile this oil can cake-up and that will require a cleaning with a good dishwashing liquid, bronze brush with patches and a follow-up with cotton swabs and/or cleaning pellets to dry things out followed by a a few cleaning pellets soaked in oil..

One of the premier Airgunners on the west coast (JW) cleans his barrels just before every match.

Hint: If he wants to shoot against you for a Pepsi, just buy one for him..

But, of course they are your rifles and you can do what you want.

[Mr Fluffy Tail]

lol, my opinion is lead doesnt, nor will it ever, break in a steel barrel .. the rest of the gun may need to break in for sure though .. if the barrel is junk, like in most springers, it likely needs to be polished out so theres more even action on the pellet haha .. lead isnt going to do that by itself though .. maybe after a million rounds it might alittle ..

[Ribbonstone]

Considering what air guns shoot, would be better to compare them to the firearms/rifle shooters dedicated to cast bullet shooting.

[null]

Considering what air guns shoot, would be better to compare them to the firearms/rifle shooters dedicated to cast bullet shooting.

That is correct.

Lead going at a fast rate (well over 1200 FPS) will lead up a barrel as it literally heats up and smears itself down the barrel. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it can affect long term accuracy if there is too much. But can be remedied if cleaned when performance suffers.

FWIW, airguns should be tuned 400-850 FPS depending on the application and performance specs of the gun.

Too fast of a pellet causes instability and can induce tumbling resulting in accuracy problems down the it's path. There are tons of posts regarding this!

I've got airguns that have had well over 30,000+ lead rounds without EVER cleaning the barrel. Shoots like the day I got it.

Also, if you use factory made pellets, chances are they have an alloy mixed in making them a harder pellet. So it will result in less leading.

[HectorMedina]

B-4;

This is my method:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-diana-430l-second-entry

Read the entry as well as the comments.

It only adds less than 15 minutes to the initial shooting session.

It has been proven by experience to give good results not only on the accuracy side, but also on the "MTBC" (mean times between cleanings)  cycle.

I will not dispute what you heard from great CF barrel makers, but, I cannot compare either barrels that cost $300 to barrels that cost between $5 and $34 (Chinese and German respectively). The 'why' would be a lengthy discussion which is out of place here.

I will not compare either barrels that are made to work with relatively "elastic" projectiles (jacketed bullets), when we shoot lead pellets that are 99% "dead" as far as shape recovery goes.

Further, the tens of thousands of PSI's (and the energy that goes with it) is vastly different from the 5.5->25 ft-lbs that most piston airguns can yield.

And, lastly, an airgun barrel is designed to last the life of the gun (in some cases, it is approaching a century); those great barrel makers you have talked to have a vested interest in you shooting hot cartridges that will erode the throat and require a barrel change after 5-10k rounds. In some cases, every 3 k rounds (or less, LOL!)

So, "horses for courses". Let's keep things in their own dominion.

The MAIN enemy of accuracy in an airgun barrel is leading. And those that think that at our "low" speeds barrels cannot lead, are wrong.
MAYBE at 5.5-9 ft-lbs that is true, but even there, I have seen Match guns that have improved their (already phenomenal) accuracy with a simple cleaning.

And finally: remember that when CF shooters think of accuracy they think of MOA at 100-300 yards.
Ballistically, the equivalent of putting a pellet through the 1 7/16" hole of a FT at 45 to 55 yards is shooting a 7.62X51 NATO at a Cantaloupe at between 280 to 350 yds. (unknown range) and hitting it first time, without a rangefinder. I know of VERY FEW PB/CF shooters that can do this.

Not all airgunners have the same accuracy demands/needs, for some, the above mentioned procedure is a loss of time. No problem. To each his own needs/wants.

One thing is true for airgunning as for most things in life:
You get out of life as much as you are willing to put into it.

;-)

Keep well and shoot straight!







HM

[Spacebus]

I think the biggest difference comes down to propellants. Compressed air is pretty clean and besides the lead and any lube on the ammo the barrel will stay clean. You don't get the soot and carbon deposits found with powder burners. Most military style rifles are also using fully jacketed ammo and have no lead contact with the bore. I haven't shot as much as you, but the Army Marksmanship team did come to teach my company how to really shoot. Air rifle barrels, unless talking about CZ or LW, just don't have the same precision and quality as a good PB barrel. Furthermore, unless you are shooting slugs, pellets have a tiny bore contact area , and have much leas leading as a result. Lead was traditionally used as a metal filler for centuries before modern synthetic fillers an materials. Ammo used in air guns have little if any antimony or arsenic and tend to be very soft. That soft lead fills in any low points, pits, etc. in the barrel making it much smoother over time. This is my theory as to why air gun barrels do better "run in" instead of being religiously cleaned like PB guns. In fact I've seen many people lose accuracy with air gun barrels after cleaning. I'm especially leery of polishing an airgun barrel, although I might try it on something that shoots almost exclusively slugs.

[subscriber]

Barrel break-in with centerfire rifle calibers is all about copper fouling; not lead:

The reamer marks across the bore in a new barrel's chamber throat scrape copper off the bullet jacket.  That copper dust is vaporized by the hot gases near the throat, to then condense onto the colder barrel steel closer to the muzzle.

Each subsequent shot has hot gas burn the sharp edges off the reamer marks in the chamber throat, until they are dull and stop scraping the bullet jacket.  Meanwhile, in some new barrels this copper fouling may reach levels that  opens groups rapidly, or beyond acceptable levels. 

Centerfire barrel break-in is to prevent such copper build-up, just in case it was likely to occur.  The one shot then clean break-in method with CF rifles is purely to keep copper levels down, until the chamber throat has burned smooth.  After 20 shots the amount of copper laid down in the bore should be the same as the copper rubbed off by each following bullet.  In other words, after the initial smoothing of the throat, a steady state should be reached where the copper in the bore is an even thin layer, that is the same after 10 shots, as after 200.

Even with a premium barrel, it is the quality of the chamber reaming operation that determines the speed at which a barrel breaks in.  Even a hand lapped Krieger barrel may copper foul badly "out of the box", if the gunsmith that installed it used a dull thoating reamer.  The expectations for cheap barrels are lower.  So they are more likely to be shot without any further consideration; and then perform up to expectations.

The fact that serious target shooters fire one "fouling shot" after cleaning, before competition, is an indication of how quick the barrel reaches equilibrium and how "poorly" it shoots with a completely clean barrel.   Certainly, if a competitor is shooting well, they would not dream of cleaning the barrel during a break in competition; to remove copper or carbon fouling.

I have two identical CF rifles in the same caliber.  One had copper fouling build up near the muzzle that looked like foil after 300 shots.  The other looked completely clean after as many shots.  The difference was the initial smoothness of the chamber throat.  Neither were subject to any cleaning for 300 shots, once the first shots had been fired.

Target shooters and military snipers may practice barrel break-in with bolt action rifles.  The expectations for accuracy are lower for self loading battle rifles, so barrel brake-in is deemed complete after sending the first magazine full of rounds down range. 

If a new military auto-loading rifle exceeds a 4" group at 100 meters with standard ammo, then it may get special attention.  As most of them shoot better than that "out of the box" and for many thousands of rounds, barrel brake-in is something only a few infantry men have heard about; let alone witnessed - like bigfoot.

Unless one has a population of similar guns, PB or air, that you split into two groups, it would be very difficult to say with confidence how those not broken in correctly would perform, compared to those cleaned after every shot - and so forth. 

If all air rifles you own, shoot well after the correct barrel break-in procedure has been followed, then there is no control group to suggest what might happen should you skip barrel break-in.  There are many reasons why an air rifle might not shoot as well as expected.  Blaming that on poor barrel break-in saves time, even if it is not the main cause.

If carbon fouling from lubricant combustion serves as a fine lapping compound with springers, where does that leave PCPs with regard to barrel break-in?  If the antimony oxide on pellets acts as smoothing agent, does that make Crosman pellets better than JSB?  If anything, Crosman's hard, high antimony pellets are associated with stubborn leading, while JSBs near pure lead are not.  So, do Crosman pellet shooters have more opportunity to break in their barrels, with greater penalty if they don't.

I think that cleaning the barrel properly to see what it looks like before shooting is the right thing to do, because that sets the baseline.  If the barrel fouls rapidly and the airgun shoots badly, without settling, then the barrel should be cleaned again.  Does cleaning it at short interval hurt it?  No.  Not unless very bad cleaning methods or materials are used. 

Does cleaning a new barrel at short firing intervals help it?  Proponents of such barrel break-in have witnessed that it does.  Most of them shoot better than I do; so I accept their experience and advice on the merits they attach to it.  Then I feel free to do what seems right to me, with the airguns I paid for.

[BRAVO_4]

Barrel break-in with centerfire rifle calibers is all about copper fouling; not lead:

The reamer marks across the bore in a new barrel's chamber throat scrape copper off the bullet jacket.  That copper dust is vaporized by the hot gases near the throat, to then condense onto the colder barrel steel closer to the muzzle.

Each subsequent shot has hot gas burn the sharp edges off the reamer marks in the chamber throat, until they are dull and stop scraping the bullet jacket.  Meanwhile, in some new barrels this copper fouling may reach levels that  opens groups rapidly, or beyond acceptable levels. 

Centerfire barrel break-in is to prevent such copper build-up, just in case it was likely to occur.  The one shot then clean break-in method with CF rifles is purely to keep copper levels down, until the chamber throat has burned smooth.  After 20 shots the amount of copper laid down in the bore should be the same as the copper rubbed off by each following bullet.  In other words, after the initial smoothing of the throat, a steady state should be reached where the copper in the bore is an even thin layer, that is the same after 10 shots, as after 200.

Even with a premium barrel, it is the quality of the chamber reaming operation that determines the speed at which a barrel breaks in.  Even a hand lapped Krieger barrel may copper foul badly "out of the box", if the gunsmith that installed it used a dull thoating reamer.  The expectations for cheap barrels are lower.  So they are more likely to be shot without any further consideration; and then perform up to expectations.

The fact that serious target shooters fire one "fouling shot" after cleaning, before competition, is an indication of how quick the barrel reaches equilibrium and how "poorly" it shoots with a completely clean barrel.   Certainly, if a competitor is shooting well, they would not dream of cleaning the barrel during a break in competition; to remove copper or carbon fouling.

I have two identical CF rifles in the same caliber.  One had copper fouling build up near the muzzle that looked like foil after 300 shots.  The other looked completely clean after as many shots.  The difference was the initial smoothness of the chamber throat.  Neither were subject to any cleaning for 300 shots, once the first shots had been fired.

Target shooters and military snipers may practice barrel break-in with bolt action rifles.  The expectations for accuracy are lower for self loading battle rifles, so barrel brake-in is deemed complete after sending the first magazine full of rounds down range. 

If a new military auto-loading rifle exceeds a 4" group at 100 meters with standard ammo, then it may get special attention.  As most of them shoot better than that "out of the box" and for many thousands of rounds, barrel brake-in is something only a few infantry men have heard about; let alone witnessed - like bigfoot.

Unless one has a population of similar guns, PB or air, that you split into two groups, it would be very difficult to say with confidence how those not broken in correctly would perform, compared to those cleaned after every shot - and so forth. 

If all air rifles you own, shoot well after the correct barrel break-in procedure has been followed, then there is no control group to suggest what might happen should you skip barrel break-in.  There are many reasons why an air rifle might not shoot as well as expected.  Blaming that on poor barrel break-in saves time, even if it is not the main cause.

If carbon fouling from lubricant combustion serves as a fine lapping compound with springers, where does that leave PCPs with regard to barrel break-in?  If the antimony oxide on pellets acts as smoothing agent, does that make Crosman pellets better than JSB?  If anything, Crosman's hard, high antimony pellets are associated with stubborn leading, while JSBs near pure lead are not.  So, do Crosman pellet shooters have more opportunity to break in their barrels, with greater penalty if they don't.

I think that cleaning the barrel properly to see what it looks like before shooting is the right thing to do, because that sets the baseline.  If the barrel fouls rapidly and the airgun shoots badly, without settling, then the barrel should be cleaned again.  Does cleaning it at short interval hurt it?  No.  Not unless very bad cleaning methods or materials are used. 

Does cleaning a new barrel at short firing intervals help it?  Proponents of such barrel break-in have witnessed that it does.  Most of them shoot better than I do; so I accept their experience and advice on the merits they attach to it.  Then I feel free to do what seems right to me, with the airguns I paid for.

Very informative, and sort of along the lines of a comparison I was looking for.

USASS (Army sniper school) stopped teaching the old barrel break in procedure some years ago. I graduated class 06-13 in Benning.

I personally am firmly against the clean at short intervals during break in method, especially after Kelly McMillan told me, "barrel break in is what keeps us in business. Clean your d**n barrel, shoot it until it's not accurate, and then clean it again."

[Novagun]

Interesting thread with contributions from people who know what they are talking about. Now I don't know what to do  I will keep shooting and clean when I think I should.

[Spacebus]

B-4;


And finally: remember that when CF shooters think of accuracy they think of MOA at 100-300 yards.
Ballistically, the equivalent of putting a pellet through the 1 7/16" hole of a FT at 45 to 55 yards is shooting a 7.62X51 NATO at a Cantaloupe at between 280 to 350 yds. (unknown range) and hitting it first time, without a rangefinder. I know of VERY FEW PB/CF shooters that can do this.









HM

I would agree with you, most people could not make that shot on the first try. To be honest I'm not sure I could either. I thought I was a good shooter until trying to match the accuracy I found on this forum.