Air venturia avenger 25 flyers

[Mr Fluffy Tail]

id bet 9 times out of ten if all the orings in a new gun arnt checked one or more is nicked, and also its common to have a set screw 'inside' the tp orings on a barrel that can leak .. throw in a smidge of oil and its a recipe for wildly varying pressure .. its a procress with a new gun really, especially low to mid cost id say, but really no experience with higher end stuff .. other things that usually need attention are around the hammer get it smooth snd clean and the barrel itself needs thr throat deburred and possibly the choke end polished out a bit ...

[JimD]

Different gun but I had some interesting results in my 22 caliber P35 that might be useful.  I've only had it about a month now so I am still figuring it out.  I have less than 1000 shots through it.  It really likes H&N Barracuda Match pellets, 21.14 grain.  At the stock regulator setting it is pushing them out at about 835 fps.  That gives me reasonable trajectory but 18 grain JSBs were about 875 fps but their 33 yard accuracy was worse than the H&N so I got some 18 grain H&Ns.  This gun doesn't seem to care if they are .551 or .552 head diameter although it shoots them to a little different point of impact. 

Anyway, groups with the H&N 18s ranged from 3/16 to 13/16 inch.  Only one group was over 1/2 inch.  Most groups were at 25 yards but some were at 33 yards.  I normally have been attributing groups like that 13/16th one to me and that may be correct.  But I've been shooting my P35s exclusively for the last month or two and my groups with the pellets they really like do not vary this much.  I have a couple with the 22 that look like they are no larger than a bullet diameter.  Most are probably under 1/4 inch at 25 yards.  It seems to shoot nice little groups with the Match H&Ns but an occasional flier with the 18s.   

Is it possible some of the "fliers" are just an indication our gun doesn't like a particular ammunition very well? 

Seems like there are lots of potential causes of fliers including:

1)  Damaged pellet (or slug) - including from a magazine that damages them
2)  Shooter error
3) Odd wind gust
4)  Poorly adjusted Occular with varying eye placement
5)  Damaged or poorly machined crown
6)  Dirty barrel
7)  Damaged/poorly machined lead damaging pellets
  Pellets our gun doesn't like very much
9)  Clipping in shroud or suppressor (usually has a very non subtle impact)
10)  Loose action or scope mounting bolts

[45Bravo]

There have been many people trying to remove the fliers.

We started a 3D Airgun Works printing group on facebook to address those things and others with our Avengers.

Many people have found like Jason said, polishing the barrels helps, but not everyone has those skills.

Tightening and Loctite every screw you can get to will go a long way as well.

You can buy a 11mm x 13mm x 500mm Carbon fiber sleeve from Amazon for about $15 that will help stiffen the avenger barrel, we have designed tested and printed TPU spacers that hold the barrel or carbon fiber sleeve tight into the shroud with good results.

The spacers are also ventilated to allow the air from the muzzle to use the entire shroud to reduce the sound level.

We also have designed moderators that use a centering system like the Donny adapter, but also have internal and external suppression, but only extend 50mm past the shroud, test by many people have found the design to be on the same level off sound suppression as the Donny Tanto and adapter, but at a fraction of the price, and a lot shorter.

What many people have found is after these modifications there are still some fliers, but a lot less, personally on my Avengers (rifle and bullpup) when I had fliers after these mods, they were my fault.

I had to add a bubble level to realize I was not concentrating and slightly and canting the rifle.

With the bullpup because of the scope height over the barrel, it does not take very much of an angle from vertical to move the pellet 2 inches at 100 yards.

After that realization, what fliers I have are now damaged pellets,

[customcutter]

There have been many people trying to remove the fliers.

We started a 3D Airgun Works printing group on facebook to address those things and others with our Avengers.

Many people have found like Jason said, polishing the barrels helps, but not everyone has those skills.

Tightening and Loctite every screw you can get to will go a long way as well.

You can buy a 11mm x 13mm x 500mm Carbon fiber sleeve from Amazon for about $15 that will help stiffen the avenger barrel, we have designed tested and printed TPU spacers that hold the barrel or carbon fiber sleeve tight into the shroud with good results.

The spacers are also ventilated to allow the air from the muzzle to use the entire shroud to reduce the sound level.

We also have designed moderators that use a centering system like the Donny adapter, but also have internal and external suppression, but only extend 50mm past the shroud, test by many people have found the design to be on the same level off sound suppression as the Donny Tanto and adapter, but at a fraction of the price, and a lot shorter.

What many people have found is after these modifications there are still some fliers, but a lot less, personally on my Avengers (rifle and bullpup) when I had fliers after these mods, they were my fault.

I had to add a bubble level to realize I was not concentrating and slightly and canting the rifle.

With the bullpup because of the scope height over the barrel, it does not take very much of an angle from vertical to move the pellet 2 inches at 100 yards.

After that realization, what fliers I have are now damaged pellets,

Excellent post.  I don't own an Avenger, but I'm sure most of this can/will carry over to other platforms as well.  Thanks for posting!

[45Bravo]

Yes it does, the Umarex origin, and the Nova Vista uses the same parts.

The marauder responded well to the same mods.

None of these are permanent, but they are cheap and work well.

The Stl files are free on the 3D airgun works Facebook page, and the 3D airgun works discord page.

[Tomygun1]

I have bought the moderator that Ian refers to and it works very well without interfering with accuracy.    I have others also but I have settled on this one due to overall rifle length, weight, and effectiveness.    I also use the bbl/shroud centering rings and he is correct, the holes in them permit the shroud to help with sound moderation.


Flyers still remain a problem with 3 low to mid priced pcp rifles I am testing in 177, 22, and an Avenger in 25ca.    One thing they all have in common is a 75yd limit for good bench rest accuracy.     Beyond that I am always disappointed.    At 50yds or less holes are usually touching.    I am starting to think that I am expecting something that these rifles just aren’t capable of at long range.     I sometimes shoot at 3/4” lengths of blackboard chalk poked into a hole in card board at 75yds and always hit at least one out of three or better.   Without optics I can’t see that far so maybe these rifles are under respected as they are.


Still I’ll keep trying.

[Spin]

Duplicate post, sorry

[Spin]

Tom you can shoot MOA groups all day long at 100 yrds Without having all five shots touch. And Bubba that is Very accurate shooting.
You're being unrealistic partner and under appreciative of the performance you have already achieved from a $300.00 gun. What you are looking for would be more suited to expectations from a custom Thomas build gun or the equivalent. We both know the cash investment
chasing that same dream going that route.
      You are already getting performance well above fair expectation considering the price, features, accuracy and power delivered.

[45Bravo]

With the right tune, and concentrating, and right pellets, any of the avengers are a sub MOA gun.

With .22&.25 one inch at 100 yds I fps a regular event.

For a $400 gun. Bullpup and wood stock. That’s an amazing feat.

Add the sleeve and stabilizers, and some time polishing the barrel.

These rifles can go toe to toe with the big boys.


On paper the “big guys” will have smaller groups.

But on steel, it’s a hit or miss.
For a $400 gun I will stand there and applaud them all day long..

Ian

[Tim F]

Tom, where did you get the moderator. I would like to try one. I also am going to have to rework the trigger. Made the trigger mods that Jim D had talked about some time ago but, it has become heaver with more travel. I still am going to pull the bbl and polish as you have described. Seems as though some flyers are something we will have to live with.

[Tomygun1]

Tim,
The silencer came from Buck-Rail airguns.com    Its not on his main page but search ‘Avenger’ and you will find it for $24.

[Tim F]

Thanks Tom, I will look at ordering one. Worked on the trigger today, winds are high this afternoon will test it tomorrow and see if there is any improvement.

[customcutter]

Air venturia avenger 25 JSB 25.39, will group 3 shots in 1" or less at a 100 yards, but consistently has 2 flyers out of 5 shots. I am trying to figure out what is causing the flyers. I have tried 2 different scopes, 3 different pellets, the same results. Wondering if the regulator could be the issue. Regulator is set at 2100 psi, fill to 3300 psi. All pellets out of the same tin. Any insight would be appreciated.

Are the fliers all ending up in the same area, like they are grouping together? Or are they random?
100 yards gives alot of time in flight to be affected by wind and even pellet deformation. Most guys shoot slugs that distance to counter those issues. Have you tried shooting closer to see how it groups. I would try 30 yards, then 50, to see if it repeats itself.

   
              This is one of the best discussions on accuracy and tuning I've found so far. Well worth the time and effort to watch and listen to IMO.   link;   

Thanks for posting the video.  It's now in my Favorites!  Especially since I just got a new to me FX Wildcat MK I.

[Spin]

Tim,
The silencer came from Buck-Rail airguns.com    Its not on his main page but search ‘Avenger’ and you will find it for $24.

I have a very recently purchased Moderator from Buck Rail. It extends 4" past the front end of the shroud and threads into the female threads
in the shroud. You can have it if you like. I've replaced it with one that simply has a approx. 1/8" lip which butts up against the front of the shroud. It has 4 rows of baffles, doesn't extend the length of the rifle at all, easily screws on and off and performs better. In fact it performs perhaps a bit better than the other mono core I had on the gun (and still do on my other Avenger) and goes on, and comes off much easier.
I've already ordered a second one for the other Avenger from E-Bay. Over time I've tried 3 different mono core moderators and this one gets  top marks from me.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125134087158?var=426189370310

[Tim F]

Jerry, Thanks for the information on the moderator. I have the Donny FL SUMO and adapter, but, it extends the bbl about 7". Looks like a sniper weapon with the can on the front. Like the idea of not extending the muzzle. Did test the trigger mod. Improved group with fx 25.4.
 35 yards group 4 shots 3/16" 5 shot opened group to 3/8"
 50 yards 7/16", at 75 yards 6 shot group 2-13/16".
I shot a second group at 75 yards with jsb 25.39 and that grouped at 13/16". Can't get the scope to clear at 75 yards. May have to replace for targets past 50 yards.

[Tomygun1]

Looks like moderators are important to others also so let me post what is the quietest one of all on my 25cal Avenger.    First my shroud has a 1/8” hole drilled at the breech end with 4 Mr. Clean fitted wads covering it, followed with the aftermarket vented shroud centering rings and the muzzle is capped with my aftermarket stripper.    Then baffles to fill the shroud to the shroud end finished with the Donnyfl thread adapter.    As it is threaded 1/2X20 and the most effective moderator I used is threaded 1/2”X28” you will need to buy another adapter as used on AR-15’s to make it fit.    This will increase the length of your rifle by another 1” but if sound reduction is your major goal try this.    For $3.84 the Chinese high quality anodized aluminum ‘fuel filter’ can be drilled out to fit your caliber, and this combo @ 78decibles has proven best.     Still, for all around practical use I have settled on the Buck-Rail suppressor.    Terry is great to work with.


FYI

[45Bravo]

Use your own judgment, but if you have any powder burners,  I would steer clear of anything on my airgun that is threaded 1/2x28.

And those Chinese metal things are on the radar of the 3 letter and a badge people..

There is a term they use called “intent”…..

[Tomygun1]

Good point, but the problem is the other way around.    I can’t advise others but I have ATF tax stamps for the powder burners and as far as the air powered rifles are concerned a fuel filter might as well be a hair curler.    Still this continues to be a concern to pay attention to.    There is a fine line to follow to stay legal.

[45Bravo]

This is in no way legal advice, just my opinion, and my level of common sense.


Since you have a stamp for each removable powder burner thingy that is threaded 1/2x28.
Why would someone want to have an unregistered metal 1/2x28 thingy in their possession?


I doubt they would take the owners word that “oh, that one is for the airguns only…..”

There is a reason that 1/2x20 has become the airgun standard threading.

People that have ordered the metal “filter” have received letters requesting they be surrendered, and a few have claimed to have been visited.

Since it was ordered online, by a credit/debit card, and delivered to an address through the mail, there is a trail to follow.

[avator]

My take?
Somehow we've taken an informative thread about flyers in a .25 cal airgun, which is well within the scope and intent of this forum, and turned into a discussion on silencers and PB guns.
It's my understanding that from the very beginning both of these topics were discouraged from being discussed on our forum so as not to attract unwanted attention to our little airgun community.
Has that changed?