New Seneca Dragonfly?

[splitbeing]

What's it like to notice what you've accomplished here?

[Nvreloader]

SB
Thanks

In my HO,
I don't believe that I have accomplished very much, as I really don't understand the dynamics,
this pumper is way worse than a PCP for tuning.
I can't seem to find a good consistent readings, no matter which way I turn, or what I try,
kind'a like a dog chasing it's tail, I am just getting dizzy, and just about ready to throw in the towel.

There is something going on with this pump rod head and the "O" rings and the way they fit,
along with the head space between the valve and pump rod head,
it seems that I have 2 different sizes, as one size just slides in a light friction fit,
and the other one seem to be very tight fit and hard to get into the pressure tube.

The dimensions of the pump head are,
bottom of the "O" ring groove "U" shaped = .533" x .125" wide, Dia of head =.740".

Valve body "O" ring dimensions of = bottom of the flat shaped groove = .530" x .125" wide
x.738" OS Dia.

Valve head "O" ring groove = "U" shaped = .535" x .123" wide x .742" OS Dia,
which indicate the use of a 3mm x 13.50mm "O" ring?.

I went thru ALL the tests and I have this average for 1-5-10-15 pump tests
with the average fps reading, using Crosman 14 gr ammo.

On the 1-5-10 tests, I had 16 test results/average,
on the 15 pumps tests I only had 6 tests result/average that went to 15 pumps,

1 pump tests average for 16 tests =273fps
5 pump tests average for 16 tests =638fps
10 pump tests average for 16 tests =720fps
15 pump tests average for 6 tests =828fps

Thanks all,
Don

[Nvreloader]

I was playing around this afternoon, changed back to the Alum hammer with the 8/9# spring
and came up with this tune.

All shots were single shots until I get to 12 pumps,
then I started getting 2 shots per 12 pumps, so I decided to see what could be done.


                 1st                  2nd shot
12p = 2 shots = 633 +0 pump = 357fps
12p = 2 shots = 639 +6 pumps= 593fps
12p = 2 shots = 634 +7pumps = 623fps
12p = 2 shots = 635 +8pumps = 630fps
12p = 2 shots = 633 +9pumps = 662fps

So it appears that I have found a good hunting pumps = 12 pumps and then add 8 more pumps
as you can see this is real close to the 1st shot, and all shots were very consistent,
for 3 tests. Should I even try 13 > 15 pumps?

I can live with this hunting setup.............

Tia,
Don

[Back_Roads]

  Fingers crossed it stays like that now

[splitbeing]

After the 8 pump shot, is there any air left for a third?

This is wild stuff. The consistency is great! Hopefully it holds this way as James said!

[Nvreloader]

Guys
Testing different hammer spring weights for the results,

Springs Spec's/Dimensions
OEM original = 18/19#s, (3.140")
OEM replacement = 13/14 #'s, (3.560")
Flat Wire spring = 11/12 #s, (5" Full length)
Reduced Flat Wire = 8/9#s (2.50")
Storm Rider spring = 6/7#s (3.640")

Hammer spring tests #1
OEM Hammer 537 grs (lightened from 875 grs) with 6/7# hammer spring,
peek poppet/seals, .375" valve stem length, no other changes, 14 gr Crosman ammo.

Pumps = shots = fps
5= 567 fps
6= 492 fps
7= 511 fps
8= 541 fps
9= 574 fps
10p = 2 shots = 544-505 fps*
11p = 3 shots = 587-574-380 fps*
12p = 3 shots = 495-593-475 fps*
13p = 2 shots = 554-554 fps*
14p = 3 shots = 515-587-498 fps*
15p = 3 shots = 482-517-475 fps*
16p = 5 shots = 459-551-652-579-410 fps*
Retained air = *

Same as above test, only change is to a 8/9# 2.5" Flat wire hammer spring, test #2
no other changes.
5= 564 fps
6= 600 fps
7= 636 fps
8= 2 shots - 540 = 203fps *
9= 2 shots - 577 = 321 fps *

10p = 2 shots - 593 = 488 fps*
10p = 2 shots - 606 = 472 fps*
10p = 2 shots = 605 +4p = 603 fps*
10p = 2 shots = 610 +6p = 593 fps*
10p = 2 shots = 616 +8p = 606 fps*

11p = 2 shots = 620 = 577 fps*
12p = 2 shots = 616 = 636 fps*
13p = 3 shots = 501-564-433 fps*
14p = 3 shots = 544-570-429 fps*
15p = 3 shots = 482-583-600 fps*
16p = 3 shots = 446-616-659 fps*
Retained air = *

Same as above tests, only change is to a 11/12# full length Flat wire hammer spring, test #3
no other changes.
5= 459 fps
6= 495 fps
7= 531 fps
8= 554 fps
9= 577fps
10p = 816 fps
11p = 833 fps
12p = 853 fps
13p = 889 fps
14p = 905 fps
15p = 923 fps
16p = 908 fps
No air retained after any shot.
3 test average on the #9 & 10 shots, I do not know what is going on here..........?
I do like the results, will test a couple more times, if it holds consistent,
I have found my Holy Grail...............

Summary of all the tests
     Test       J       K    L1    L2    L3    L4   HSP#3
1 pump=  223=242=272=252=232=295-------
2 pumps= 357=380=351=377=354=433-------
3 pumps= 452=456=436=426=429=439-------
4 pumps= 508=511=482=465=459=457-------
5 pumps= 515=531=511=495=482=495=459 fps
6 pumps= 528=554=541=531=501=511=495
7 pumps= 538=561=577=567=565=544=531
8 pumps= 570=590=593=583=705=611=554
9 pumps= 577=623=639=597=761=757=577
10 pumps=603=652=662=613=823=800=816
11 pumps=620=666=688=626=836=849=833
12 pumps=643=688=754=643=866*=853=853
13 pumps=898=603--------651=900*=870*=889
14 pumps=928=593--------661-------=915*=905
15 pumps=980=554--------672-------=948*=908
There was no retained air left after any pump test, except those with the *.

(J Test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and poppet, .180" air inlet hole,
this seal had a .170" nose that fit into the inlet hole, this nose was flush at the top of valve,
OEM valve spring. Valve stem lengthened to .375" from rear of valve, from the stock .180" length,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.

(K test)
Used a valve with Delron air inlet seal and poppet, .140" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .135" x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.156"

OEM valve spring, Valve stem lengthened to .375" from rear of valve,
from the stock .180" length,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.

(L1 test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and Peek poppet, .145" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .135" Dia x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.145",

OEM valve spring and Valve stem length .180" from rear of valve,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .145" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot.

(L2 test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and Peek poppet, .156" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .145" Dia x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.156"

OEM valve spring and Valve stem length .180" from rear of valve,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot.

(L3 test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and Peek poppet, .145" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .135" Dia x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.145"

OEM valve spring and Valve stem length .375" from rear of valve,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .145" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
*Air left after shot.

(L4 test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and Peek poppet, .156" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .145" Dia x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.156"

OEM valve spring and Valve stem length .375" from rear of valve,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
*Air left after shot.


(HS#3 test)
OEM Hammer 537 grs (lightened from 875 grs) only change is to a 11/12#
full length Flat wire hammer spring, Peek poppet/seals,  no other changes,
14 gr Crosman ammo.


Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Thanks,
Don

[splitbeing]

Which weight and pump number data points are standing out to you, Don?

[Nvreloader]

SB
Here is the post, for that information, those readings are really odd.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=208652.0
Thanks,
Don

[Nvreloader]

Hey Guys
Here is some more info on these DF 2 22 cal rifles,
14 gr Crosman pellets
DF 2 fps tests = new rifles OEM STOCK/No Mods   
                  A*   B*  B1*  C*
1 pump=--265-236-249-272-
2 pumps=-288-370-380-387-
3 pumps=-322-456-469-462-
4 pumps=-465-501-528-515-
5 pumps=-515-554-574-551-
6 pumps=-567-587-593-580-
7 pumps=-600-613-597-603-
8 pumps=-633-636-666-610-
9 pumps=-652-652-682-666-
10 pumps=666-675-679-715-
11 pumps=678-685-702-725-
12 pumps=679-692-709-738-
13 pumps=681-705-718-757-
14 pumps=680-715-741-795-
15 pumps=679-731-748-748-

A test = New OEM stock DF 22 cal
B test = New OEM stock DF 22 cal
C test = New OEM stock DF 22 cal

B-1 test = opened all airways to = .1562"

Tia,
Don

[JPSAXNC]

So it looks like the max efficiency is 9 pumps, more pressure/pumps  doesn't help. Increasing the valve volume a this point could take advantage of the additional pumps.

[Nvreloader]

JPSAXNC
Thanks,
That is my next step, I have one more test to run with slightly enlarged air holes,
then I'll open the valve volume up in steps, to see the results.
It sure makes it easy to check everything when you have 5 valves
with the minor steps between them, just mix and match.

I have learned to keep the poppets and valve air check parts with each valve,
that they lapped in.
I can just change whichever end needed via the valve spring. 
I am finding my valve leakage is no longer a problem,
each Lapped part is kept with it's lapped end,
just switch the lapped ends to the combo needed.

I did have to code each part as I got lost a couple times, swappin ends out...LOL

There seems to be quite a variance between OEM rifles as the above test shows.
Tia,

[2K1TJ]

Nice process. Where did you get the spare valves? I have a Gragonfly and a lr700w and wouldn't mind having an extra or 2 to experiment with.

Have you calculated the swept volume of the pump assembly? Just curious how it compares to other pumpers, like the 362.

[Nvreloader]

2K1TJ
Thanks,
I got the valves wherever I could find them, some where back around pg 18 > 22,
I did some figuring on swept volume, and volume of the valve on this post.
Since I don't own any other pumpers other than my 4 Dans,
I haven't figured anything out on any other model of pumper.

There is also another post on the DF 1 rifle, very different than the DF 2 model see info here:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=218359.msg156602028#new,
I am just about finished doing any more tests, unless something very useful comes up,
for either model. ymmv
Tia

[2K1TJ]

Thank you, sir

[Psipumper]

Nice process. Where did you get the spare valves? I have a Gragonfly and a lr700w and wouldn't mind having an extra or 2 to experiment with.

Have you calculated the swept volume of the pump assembly? Just curious how it compares to other pumpers, like the 362.

The swept volume is pretty decent because of the 19 mm tube I.d.
For comparison:
392 swept volume  58cc per pump
LR700.                  47.7cc/pump
362                      32cc / pump
1377                     17.6/pump
So 8 392 pumps the same amount of air into the valve as 9.75 LR700 pumps or 14 pumps of the 362.

In stock form, I found that the LR 700 is about the same power as the 392 at 8 pumps . Mostly because the 392 is more deficient in stock form.
Comparing my modified pumpers, they follow close to the swept volume , as in my LR700 makes the same power at 10 pumps as the 392 at 8 pumps with similar sized valve volume.