Crossman 101 I Picked Up This Morning

[c801tfd]

Dave,

I am no expert and never claim to be one and if I was wrong so be it, you corrected it with information I did not have. I for one don’t doubt you or what you wrote, or say and I truly do look forward to what your research of the 50,000+ documents turns up as it will expand upon what is known or thought to be known about Crosman and their rifles.

Like I stated there are mysteries that surround this series of rifles and related topics such as production numbers for the 100, 101 and 102, barrel makers, was air rifle manufacturing 100% shutdown during WWII.

I find it fascinating a fifth logo variant exists and your post was the first reference I have seen indicating this and the fact that the premiere logo was used on 101’s produced for Montgomery Wards which may explain why those ones are hard to find.

Needless to say the small curved logo is not high on my search list as it appears my newly acquired Model 100 filled two voids.picture 1 is the large curve logo from my 101 made about 1947 and Picture 2 is from my Model 100.

Unfortunately now knowing the premiere logo and the straight logo were both used on the early Crosman 101’s of the same year(s)?, I don’t feel the need to pursue the premiere logo variant as much as before.

At this point I am looking forward to watching LOKEY get his early variant 101 up and running.

[LOKEY]

It's still stuck. But I am not giving up.

[DWTrull]

Regarding Crosman producing airguns during the war.
Crosman made airgun until early 1942 when need materials were unavailable and what few workers Crosman had went to war industries or the service.
Nothing made in 1943 other than Tojo paper targets and lead pellets
1944 was able to secure government contract to produce 1000 102 rifles for the OSS
1945 production restarted after end of War in August. a very few 101's were produced using prewar hardware and receivers
before new Merz redesign parts were available in early 1946.

1941 full production
1942 production stops after a few months
1943 no air rifle production
1944 production one thousand 102's  only with round .22 ball shot ammo
1945 production after August assemble from prewar hardware and receivers.
1946 production large pellet logo

[Rabbit\Squirrel Killer]

This is specifically addressed to Elroy and Dan

I have acquired DT Fletcher complete paper collection of Crosman and Benjamin paper to add to my own.
I have been researching this stuff for the last couple of years part time since I still have a fulltime job. I'd like to get it done faster,
but I am just finding so much information its taking lots of time just organizing it. I do not use anecdotal information floating around the internet because I have found that alot of it is wrong. The vast bulk of information I have is from period documents and articles. I acquired an enormous amount of Crosman and Benjamin Documents. I have also bought many examples from all the manufacturers that I am investigating to examine and establish a time line. Examining examples is often the only way to establish were it fits in the history.

I do this because I enjoy the detective work involved with establishing the real history. Will I get it 100% right, of course not, but I feel it will be as accurate as possible based on documented facts and not someones hazy recollection from 30 or 40 years ago. I have been primarily working on Crosman right now and haven't even started to organize my Benjamin and Sheridan stuff. I do admit my research has given me a better appreciation of the Crosman Silent Rifle series. And better yet my work on this book has led me to meeting many old time collectors who have lots of information to pass on regarding many of these manufacturers .

Funny thing is, my research started when I picked up a couple of Plainsman rifles and later discovered practically everything on the internet about them was wrong.
That led me down the rabbit hole, and now I am researching all the vintage US manufacturers.

But Crosman will be the first book.

PS:
I plan to source what I consider the most important points, but there is so much information, I will be unable to source every fact in the book or the source section alone would exceed the size of the book. I have over 50,000 files of information. If someone choose to not believe something because I did not source it, SO BE IT. I'm not going to worry about it.

 
 

I appreciate your zeal and effort and your motivation to find and share the truth, and to do your best to gather disseminated information and organize it and piece it all together into "the truth". I am looking forward to the result.
I am sure there will always be some controversy about some facts but it sounds like you will have enough source material for your assertions to be highly regarded and respected. 
Thank you.

[LOKEY]

Just a question, Do I have to remove the pump chamber to reseal it? It is really in there. I tried heat yesterday with no luck. I am still trying but I was thinking if I could seal it without removing the chamber then I can still get it shooting. Thanks

[longhunter]

All you can do is try.
Worse comes to worse, send it off to Rick, at Precision Pellet.  It'll be money well spent.

[c801tfd]

I am with Longhunter, Rick would be my choice if I could not get the chamber out to upgragde to an o-ring type.   

[Pellet Fun]

Don, don’t take this the wrong way if you already tried everything. But, are you using a half inch wood dowel and a fairly large hammer. Not the standard household nail puller.

The dowel I picked up from a local hardware store was 1/2” but it measured 5/8” diameter which is about perfect. With the stock off and the rifle upright with the receiver on a hard wood block setting on a strong work bench that’s the best you can do. Maybe have a buddy hold the rifle while you give it a few good wraps with the hammer. You should cut the dowel down whereby about six or more is sticking out of the pump tube.

Rick mentioned having a really hard time when he did one of his early guns but he did finally get it out.

Sorry if you have already tried this. That old expression applies - get a bigger hammer!

[LOKEY]

Lokey

Gary beat me to it, of the two he posted I have replaced the leather pump assembly with the synthetic/rubber cup and have no regrets switching. Rick at precision pellet sells the complete assembly with the rubber cup and recommended using it over leather as it increases the velocity and cup is easier to replace if needed. He also sells them for far less than JG, but JG site has bailed me out many times on the various rifles I own.

If you are wanting to keep things original, I have a pump assembly if you need it, it’s yours.

I didn't reply to your offer because I was trying to decide how to go with this. I think I am going to go with the rubber cup or some type of rubber seal. I have cutters that can make rubber pieces that can replace the leather on the original pump. I am going to try this and if it doesn't work I may switch to the rubber cup. We will see. Thank you very much for the offer, That's really nice of you.

[LOKEY]

Well I never got the actual pump chamber out but I did get the guts out of it. I really don't think that the pump chamber will leak air around it like it is so I am going to replace the seals in it like it is and see how it goes. Here are pics of the parts out of it. Any advise on how to do this would be great. To clean up the valve seat way down inside it I am going to try a gun cleaning kit using the screw on cotton swab for a large bore gun. In my last pic could I use an O-Ring to seal that part?

[c801tfd]

Lokey,

No problem on the offer. As for the chamber removal, while I suggest sending to Rick, Gary is spot on with the “Use a Bigger Hammer” this is exactly what I did on my really tough chamber removal, I went from using a 10 ounce hammer to a 12 pound sledge, when I did this it only took 2 or 3 good solid strikes on the dowel to break the chamber free of the tube.

As for your old seals, I am curious to know if that is old dry rotted red rubber seals, I only ask as it looks like someone may have used red loctite where it does not belong.

Your question about using a rubber o-ring to seal the exhaust valve chamber with the air chamber is one I have wondered about as well. However, I have no answer as I always buy a seal kit with seals that are most applicable to the 101 from Rick.
However, I do have one 101 to seal and I may try a rubber one just to see if it makes a difference, if not another kit will be on its way.

[c801tfd]

Lokey,

I just finished up testing the idea of using a rubber o-ring seal between the air chamber and exhaust valve. As long as the o-ring diameter fits inside the groove it should work. I used a high performance metric o-ring with an inside diameter of 14mm and a section thickness of 2.5mm. I did not velocity test due to lateness of this post 12:30am MST, but it does not leak any air or have blow by when pumping with the gun cocked.

This one has a lighter exhaust valve spring typically found in late models and yours has the big thick egg/football shaped brass spring. Before the o-ring update I could not get more than 6 pumps in it, anymore and air would blow by. Now I am able to put 8 pumps in it with no problem and I put 10 in it 1 time just because. In both instances it dumped all its air so the internal parts are going their job. Going forward I will stick with 6 or 8 pumps on this one. Thanks for the motivation to experiment tonight, and I hope this helps you with your project.

PS: I have put 2 pumps into it and will check for leak down in the morning.

[Pellet Fun]

Elroy, I have wondered about going with the big o-ring too. Any idea of the duro? I’d think it needs to be fairly hard.

Anyway, thanks for sharing. All these results are very helpful for the community at large.

Lokey, you can certainly try to clean it with the compression chamber in place and I hope it works. I can’t help but think the nature of the original seal will be problematic. The reason is it’s so hard to clean even with the chamber fully removed. It’s just stuck on like glue. From your pictures the sealing surface actually looked pretty clean so maybe you’ll be okay.

Thanks for sharing your progress.

[LOKEY]

Lokey,

I just finished up testing the idea of using a rubber o-ring seal between the air chamber and exhaust valve. As long as the o-ring diameter fits inside the groove it should work. I used a high performance metric o-ring with an inside diameter of 14mm and a section thickness of 2.5mm. I did not velocity test due to lateness of this post 12:30am MST, but it does not leak any air or have blow by when pumping with the gun cocked.

This one has a lighter exhaust valve spring typically found in late models and yours has the big thick egg/football shaped brass spring. Before the o-ring update I could not get more than 6 pumps in it, anymore and air would blow by. Now I am able to put 8 pumps in it with no problem and I put 10 in it 1 time just because. In both instances it dumped all its air so the internal parts are going their job. Going forward I will stick with 6 or 8 pumps on this one. Thanks for the motivation to experiment tonight, and I hope this helps you with your project.

PS: I have put 2 pumps into it and will check for leak down in the morning.

Cool I think I might go that way on that part. Let me know about leak down. Thanks

[LOKEY]

Lokey,

No problem on the offer. As for the chamber removal, while I suggest sending to Rick, Gary is spot on with the “Use a Bigger Hammer” this is exactly what I did on my really tough chamber removal, I went from using a 10 ounce hammer to a 12 pound sledge, when I did this it only took 2 or 3 good solid strikes on the dowel to break the chamber free of the tube.

As for your old seals, I am curious to know if that is old dry rotted red rubber seals, I only ask as it looks like someone may have used red loctite where it does not belong.

Your question about using a rubber o-ring to seal the exhaust valve chamber with the air chamber is one I have wondered about as well. However, I have no answer as I always buy a seal kit with seals that are most applicable to the 101 from Rick.
However, I do have one 101 to seal and I may try a rubber one just to see if it makes a difference, if not another kit will be on its way.

It's old red seals not loctite. I was thinking of using a larger hammer but was scared I would damage something. If I get it to seal as is I don't see a reason to remove it.

[c801tfd]

Gary and Lokey,

This is what I used:  (I purchased the SAE and Metric kits from our local ACE Hardware store).

High Quality: Made of Nitrile (NBR) 70 shore material,resistant to heat,low/high temperature,air,water,petroleum products,mineral oil and hydraulic fluids,natural gases,kerosene,silicone fluids,non-aromatic fuels and solvents.

What prompted me to try this last night is I knew I had an older one that still had the old style air chamber (non o-ring type) and it would not seal correctley or retain air when pumped. Funny thing was a few months ago I wondered if instead of using an air chamber with the o-ring on the outside if I moved the o-ring to inbetween the two parts would it provide a proper seal. What originally made me think about this is the old rochester design where they closed everything back up with solder in this thier threaded joint area, most information I saw on resealing them included the use of teflon tape to make the seal of the two parts instead of soldering. 

I dont know why it took me so long to try this idea, but after reading Lokeys post, I just had to experiment on my 101 test rifle to answer the question, by putting that an o-ring in between the air chamber and exhaust valve put everything back together and as stated it works with no leaks. Also when putting the internals in (Check Valve, Spring Retainer (not typically used with football shaped springs) and Check Valve Spring; I dropped the o-ring into place over the air chamber, followed by the exhaust valve stem assembly, the the Exhaust body and tightend it doawn with the body lock nut. Seeing the oring in the tube cover the chamber entirely vover the air chamber lip, makes me believe the o-ring also acts as the one found on the air chamber because ther is enough squish of the oring to touch the sides of the tube to prevent the blow by when pumping.

Important reminder when tightening everyting up make sure the transfer port and barrel opening are stay aligned by using a linup pin, nail or punch when tightening the body lock nut.   

Just checked it this morning and it held air overnight so the seal works well enough to satisfy my needs and now puts a rifle I used just for experimentation into the shooting rotation instead of being my test bed gun. Oh well gives me a reason to look for a new tester.

   

[xcalibur]

Interesting to note is that the early Crosman 101's, like yours, had an oil felt that wrapped around a groove in the compression body and tied with a string.(see pics) The replacements that come in rebuild kits are a solid ring punched out from a felt pad. The cheaper ones are prone to tear while stretching it over the larger part of the comp. body. That's because the replacements are made for post-war models in which the compression body had a removable washer that held the felt in place. (see pics for comparison)

The original pre-war pump washers were punched out of 1/4 inch leather and have an expander to spread it for a tighter seal in the tube. Notice the holes in the compression head in the earlier one. These holes allow air to be forced in behind the leather washer during the pump stroke to also help with a tighter seal. If you plan to use a later style rubber pump cup, then the compression head should be swapped out for a later style. (see pic)

The compression chambers can be extremely tight in the tube, especially in the earlier production models. Parts were, more or less, custom fit to individual rifles it seems. Post-war rifles not so much.... Good news is that it doesn't necessarily have to come out. Just swab it and the compression tube out well. You can use mineral spirits to break up the grime inside without damaging any paint.

If you do end up taking it out, then some teflon tape will work as a seal when reinstalled. I have seen a few different types of string used from the factory to seal the compression chamber in the tube. The example in the attached pic appears to be asbestos string. See the frayed strands.

The gasket used to seal between the valve body and air chambers were also asbestos. These are difficult to remove and normally come out in pieces. The tool I use to remove it is made from an old razor blade. Make sure you clean that groove well. I see some gasket remnants in your photos.

Good luck
Steven

[Pellet Fun]

I love it Elroy. You ruined a perfectly good test gun. Haha.

I wanted to use my 102 as a test bed, but parts has sort of limited how many iterations I can practically test. I wanted to find the best rebuild with test results and then restore the whole rifle. I still plan to do this it’s just taken longer than expected.

 I may go back to an original design using the football shaped spring. For now I’ll follow through to see if I can improve using the new design internals.

Lokey, There’s just something special about these old airguns. Keep us posted.

[xcalibur]

Don,
Thank you for posting all the pics. Kinda looks like somebody used red RTV to try to make seals at some point; but other than that, your rifle has all the original hardware including the valve components.

I'd like to add your rifle to the database if you don't mind.
Also, could you tell me if the air intake hole is on the left or right side? It looks like on the right, but hard to tell in your pic.

[LOKEY]

Don,
Thank you for posting all the pics. Kinda looks like somebody used red RTV to try to make seals at some point; but other than that, your rifle has all the original hardware including the valve components.

I'd like to add your rifle to the database if you don't mind.
Also, could you tell me if the air intake hole is on the left or right side? It looks like on the right, but hard to tell in your pic.

It's on the right side. If you need more info on it just ask. Thanks