Just Ordered Artemis P35

[JimD]

Denis,

I have not pulled the barrel (to push a pellet through) or the shroud (to look at the crown and closer examine the baffles).  I think the accuracy is showing strong signs of improving but if I continue to want better, I may inspect and possibly re-crown it.  But I will probably get around 1000 pellets/slugs through it first.  My other chinese gun, an Avenger, is not crowned but shoots very well. 

I am curious how much benefit I get in sound reduction from the baffles so I might pull them out and make a few measurements.  I played around a little with moderators and I couldn't see any benefits except form a greater volume in the moderator.  But this is just a shroud and the gun is pretty darn quiet, especially for something delivering 30-40 fpe.  The shroud is vented at the rear (I feel the air come out when shooting from the bench if my hand is up there) and I tested that without baffles and didn't see any improvement.  But something is working pretty well.  I could also try just blocking the holes with tape.  But I inadvertantly got my hand over the holes and I think the POI jumped significantly - it seemed to affect the harmonics.  Testing that theory would be interesting, however.

I plan to test some more of the previously tested pellets to see if the velocity is the same as before the fire polish and if the accuracy is better across the board or if something now will stand out (other than possibly the H&N slugs). 

I find if fun to try and improve my guns.

Jim

[mackeral5]

Which baffles did SPA use in the P35?  If they used the same stamped aluminum funnel type as they used in the P15, there is significant room for improvement by going to an arrangement such as the felt/hair curler/fender washer combinations. 

[JimD]

Mike,

I saw the youtube by Aaron where he claimed an improvement but unless I misunderstood the numbers he put on screen did not match the statement - looked like the hair curler + felt was actually louder.  I need to rewatch.  Aaron seems to be bugged by the ping.  I found it unusual at first but it doesn't bug me.

Everybody,

I shot 4 three shot groups with three more pellets today and I think I have a winner, at least for now.  H&N FTT are light (20.06) but gave me the best groups.  One was only 1/8, then 5/16 and two 3/4 inch groups (all 25 yards).  I am still hoping the bigger ones shrink a little but I ordered another couple tins of these pellets.  I could only find them at Amazon and I don't think they will pack them well but I need something to shoot.  Hopefully a "real" pellet supplier will get some - and some of the slug HPs.  I cannot find them at all right now.  I'd like to try some in lighter weights.  I also shot King Heavies, 11/16, 11/16, 5/8 inch and 1 inch (but last shot was off reg).  And also barracudas, 1/2, 9/16, 1/2, and 1 inch.  I find it interesting that H&N pellets and slugs seem to shoot a bit better in this gun.  My Avenger has a strong preference for JSB.  I also played a bit with chairgun to see which projectile would give me the longest range the way I like to sight in.  I keep the rise in the middle to 1/4 inch so I can ignore distance from around 10 or 15 yards out to a little past the sight in range.  FTTs were the best with a 39 yard zero, the 25.39 JSBs, 33.95 JSBs, and slug HPs were all 32-33 yards.  FTTs also had the least drop at 100 yards.  I used the average velocity I got for each projectile with a BC from either the manufacturer or hard air magazine.  Last test was penetration in MDF.  I have a little test rig I shoot with 1/4 inch layers of MDF separated by 1/4 inch spacers.  I just count how many sheets the pellet goes through.  FTTs, King Heavies, and slug hps all went through 2 but not 3 pieces - 1/2 inch MDF penetration.  I was a bit surprised the slugs did as well as the pellets.  I think I'll see something different in wet paper.  I test this penetration to get an idea of ability to brain shoot a bigger animal.  Results were not surprising, they are about like what I got with my Avenger before I increased it's regulator setting and velocity. 

The velocity did not go up with the polish but the velocity spread and standard deviation both improved.  With my two favorite projectiles, the slug HP and the FTT, I got 12.47/4.48 and 15.75/2.93 respectively.  Actually that slug HP data is from the before polish, my chrony wasn't working when I shot the after.  The FTT before polish was about a 36 spread and 13 std deviation - if I throw out one low shot it improves to 24/10 but it was still better after the polish.  The before polish data is 8 shots and the after is 11 (forgot to turn on the chrony for the first shot).  I think the JB polish helped the accuracy and velocity deviation on all the pellets where I have before and after data.

[Lani52]

Well somebody with experience with this platform needs to chime in and risk the snarling teeth of the Chinese budget gun crowd, most of which have other snow peak platforms, it might as well be me.

They are very light and handy packages, but fraught with QC problems.  Mine was a Diana Skyhawk made by the same company, rebranded by Diana.

The p-15/Skyhawk was notorious for iffy barrels.  It  was called the barrel lottery.  Same  basic gun, same company, same snow peak poor quality control and no after market service.  I was forewarned by member here,  but was star struck because of the Skyhawks lovely stock, but the infatuation quickly went south when I received the Skyhawk.

Having said that your not doing too bad with that barrel.  Mine had a tight spot in front of the lead, which was a barrel death sentence.  I had JSAR replace my lousy Snowpeak barrel with a great shooting 22 caliber POLY LW, many others in 25 have sourced old Mrod 25 green mountain barrels for replacement.  Be careful tightening the barrel retention screws in the scope base as the barrels are quite thin and especially with the 25, you can dimple them and make a tight spot inside the barrel. I am not sure if yours is prone to this as the forward cocking handle may have forced the manufacturer to change this retention system.
 
Doing a hair curler mod may help accuracy as stacking those baffles which on mine had poor shoulders for stacking, this can be be problematic to accuracy.  Also the shroud end caps on mine and many others were consistently threaded crooked, on both ends so a Donnyfl adapter did not work, and caused very bad clipping, however Donny sells a endcap for his Koi that allows it to thread directly to the barrel and many P-15 owners do this.

Being a lefty, I do like that forward cocking handle, I see that there is a $150.00 conversion for that that is a 3D printed non Snowpeak item.

You can remove the 4 screws holding the entire trigger assembly, rotate it to screw the linkage closer together and improve the trigger, but beware at a certain point your left with a dangerously light trigger and non working safety.

The magazines are &^^&, but the Carm Magazines are pretty good, just hold less pellets.

If your handy at airgun smithing you can make yours work, mine was a box of parts for months, the threads on the air tube were eventually galling and binding together, which they are known to do, until a very skilled p-15 smith got mine working again.

I still shoot mine a lot at 460 FPS with 25.39 grain 22’s, but I don’t trust it.  By all means don’t dump a bunch of money in it.  I will never buy another Diana after they had zero after market care, same with Snowpeak and Chinese guns in general with one exception.

I have sworn off Chinese guns, the AEA guns are very interesting, if they go to a sidelever while I am still above ground, I may relent and buy another Chinese gun.

Regards and I hope it works for you.

Roachcreek

[customcutter]

Thanks for the detailed review.  Sounds like it's going to be a shooter!  Enjoy

[JimD]

Roachcreek,

I'm sorry you got a bad air rifle.  I'm glad I do not appear to have.  I hope you get it working more to your satisfaction. 

I volunteered today at my church, my standard Monday schedule, so I did not shoot but I did take the shroud apart when I got home out of curiosity.  I rewatched Aaron's shroud change video this morning waiting for the sun to come up so I could walk my dog.  He did not really show a benefit of his changes at least not with test data.  His initial db reading is lower but it is for a larger capacity shroud, not the stock one.  His point is that his modified version is kind of close.  His is a 177 and mine is a 25.  Mine is noisier than his modified 177 but I think that is apples and oranges. 

The other thing that I discovered is the end of the barrel threads into the shroud right before the baffles start.  I think they are stamped aluminum, there are 8.  One of mine was a little deformed so I straightened it.  But with the forward end of the barrel threading into the shroud I think modifying the shroud so that it has more volume ahead of the barrel is a bit risky because you loose the attachment of the end of the barrel.  Could lead to clipping.  It also seems like it would affect harmonics of the barrel but that could go either way.  I may still try shifting the shroud forward to increase the volume, as Aaron does, but it isn't high on my list.  I saw 85-88 db at 15 feet which I think is pretty good, especially for a 30-40 fpe airgun.  My little Prod is this loud.  But lower would be better I guess.  Aaron new longer shroud was under 70 (barely) and his modified stock shroud was mid-70s.  So better but unknown is the noise level of the stock 177.  If it's as loud as my 25 (which seems unlikely) then his mods are a significant benefit.  If they do not destroy accuracy due to clipping.  Swapping hair curlers for some of the baffles could also be beneficial and would not require shifting the shroud forward.  I'm skeptical because I tested something like this when I was making moderators but maybe I did something wrong.

I probably need to revisit my trigger setting.  Others (including Aaron) are reporting they got down to about 1 lb.  I think mine is above that.  But it breaks crisply and is light enough I don't think it's affecting my group size.  If I got it a little lighter it might tie with my Avenger amongst my air rifles.  The unmodified Prod trigger is still my favorite and that is unlikely to change.  The Prod has some first stage but it is very light like the P35.  I took the first stage out of the Avenger.  All three are crisp.  But the Prod is the lightest and the P35 the heaviest at this point. 

I would also say that I am happy with the build quality of my P35 so far.  It seems far more robust than my Avenger and even better than my Prod.  Much less plastic than the Avenger.  The trigger block is noticably solid even a bit heavy feeling and the parts are well finished.  The shroud design and construction are better than my other guns (and it's more effective).  There are no odd machining marks, at least that I've found so far.  Fit and finish is great from my point of view.  I think it's the best of any of my guns, powder or air.  But I, admittedly, do not buy high end guns. 

[Lani52]

I am glad it is working for you.

Bullpups are a bit more difficult to shoot tight group with than full sized rifles, so there is a learning curve involved.

You may have noticed that you can move the shroud tube forward.  You do this by unscrewing it from the  rear of the barrel near the scope base end. Once unscrewed you will find that it is attached to a threaded bushing that has been slid over the barrel from the muzzle and secured to the barrel with a set screw. Loosening the set screw and sliding it forward will give you more volume in the front for hair curlers, but at the cost of overall length.

Roachcreek

[JimD]

I did a bit more shooting this morning but mainly with pellets neither of my 25s like (benjamins).  I shot a few more groups with H&N FTT and got so-so groups.  1/2 inch or so.  One was bigger.  I also shot some cast pellets I had from a mold I sent back.  They shot a lot better from this gun than they did from my Avenger.  I called NOE to admit part of my prior issue was apparently gun related but they are still sending me a new mold.  I hope the new mold shoots at least as well and I may have a really cheap source of pellets for this gun.

I was shooting the Benjamins to test Aaron's ideas on shroud changes.  I must admit upfront that Aaron was 100% right and I regret doubting him.  I had to relearn that I have to watch what I am shooting into or the sound of the pellets impact is what I measure, not the report of the gun.  Aaron's idea is in a youtube but he takes really inexpensive hair rollers ($1/6 from the dollar store), cuts them in half, wraps with felt (I used fabric), and puts them between the metal baffles that come in the shroud.  You cannot reasonably use all the baffles, he recommended 4.  I also fired one shot with no baffles or rollers, that was really loud, 98.2 db (at 15 feet, that is what I used for all these measurements).  With stock baffles, 80.4, 87.1, and 87.8 db.  With four curler/baffle combinations, the shroud was about 1 7/8 longer and I measured 69.4, 70.5, and 67.4 db.  Tben I tried 3 and got 76.3, 76.4, and 73.7.  I had the shroud over an inch extended but I may not have pushed it back as far as it would go.  Then I went to 2 and measured 77.8, 78.4, and 78.9 db.  The shroud was not extended at all with 2.  That is where I left it.  My pellets hitting the pellet trap are around 85 db and I don't have any easy way to reduce that.  So having the gun a lot quieter than that doesn't seem necessary. 

Yesterday I was confused about why I saw threads inside the shroud.  It was the aluminum piece that has an O-ring on it that screws to the end of the barrel.  I think it was threading on and off when I pulled the shroud from the gun but I took it out of the gun and put it on the barrel with a couple drops of blue loctite in the threads to keep it on.  That worked during all my testing. 

So I have a 30-40 fpe 25 caliber airgun who's report is less than 80db.  And I could make it less than 70db if I wanted with the only cost a less than 2 inch increase in the gun length.  That's better than any moderator I've seen.  Makes me want to find some baffles that fit my other guns and do something similar in their empty shrouds. 

I also messed with the trigger some more.  I'd say it is as good as my Avenger now as long as you are not turned off by a fairly long first stage.  I just turned the sear adjustment screw that is easily accessed once you take the stock off.  I can turn it in a bit more but then I can't put on the lock nut.  I'll probably order a bit longer one next time I place a McMaster Carr order.  I think the threads are 3mmx.5 and the stock length is 6mm.  I think an 8mm will be long enough to put it in as far as you can and stick cock the gun and also still be able to use the lock nut.  I could have just put blue locktite on the screw but I'd rather leave the pull slightly heavier until I get a new screw.  I don't think the trigger is an issue.  I was surprised how far I could turn it in and still cock the gun.  I test for slam fire too and never could get it to do that, even with the sear engagement less than where it is set now. 

[MB]

I found the best way to silence the p15 without adding too much length was to do the hair curler / washer mod and add a 1/2 UNF adaptor to the Shroud end and add a Huggett Atom at 2.5 inches and almost the same diameter as the shroud, works perfect...Always thought it would look great on the p35...

[JimD]

Your rifle looks great, Mike.  But I can't imagine adding a moderator when just using 4 of the half hair curler+baffle units gets it down to 70 db or less and adds less than 2 inches to the length.  I left mine with only two of the units for about 80db.  Seems plenty quiet enough to me.  But it's still nice to know what is possible.  Maybe someday I will see it differently.

[MB]

Your rifle looks great, Mike.  But I can't imagine adding a moderator when just using 4 of the half hair curler+baffle units gets it down to 70 db or less and adds less than 2 inches to the length.  I left mine with only two of the units for about 80db.  Seems plenty quiet enough to me.  But it's still nice to know what is possible.  Maybe someday I will see it differently.

Thanks Jim, since this image was taken I added a reduced diameter valve needle, stronger hammer spring and an extreme airguns power plenum that pushed the airtube length forward by about 2 inches, so it now looks and balances well... It can shoots JSB Monster 13.43 grains up to 925 fps so around 25 ft lbs in 177 caliber, I have it settled at 875 fps or 22 ftlbs so the extra moderation is needed at these power outputs...The gun also has a CZ barrel in it...

Looking forward to getting a p35 and playing around with it...

[Lani52]

MB,

You obviously have the skills to make this work.

Roachcreek

[JimD]

Mike,

Thanks again.  Nice to know what is possible.  I have a 25 Avenger tuned to over 45 ft. lbs. so I am currently inclined to leave the P35 around 30 ft. lbs to preserve the ~70 shot count.  But I've seen that the regulator adjustment is inside the air storage tube and I've messed with the hammer spring a little to see what effect it had on accuracy.  So I'm sure I could increase power.  I also saw a youtube on getting the brass transfer port out and I drilled mine out on my Prod so I am familiar with doing that.  I also saw somebody offering power plenums.  Does that reduce air inventory?  It also seems to me that the barrel is unnecessarily short.  Another inch or two would still leave the gun nice and short and would pick up some velocity.  But unless mine stops shooting accurately I probably won't change it.  I fire polished it again with JBs today and I got three groups in a row with H&Ns slug HP .250 34 grain that averaged just over 1/4 inch at 25 yards.  The groups average a little bigger with pellets, H&N FTT seem to shoot the best of those I've tried, but my best group was with FTTs and was just 1/8th inch center to center. 

Light, quiet, powerful and accurate is a tough combination to beat.

Jim

[Lani52]

I meant that praise for Jim, sorry for the confusion.

Roachcreek]

[MB]

Mike,

Thanks again.  Nice to know what is possible.  I have a 25 Avenger tuned to over 45 ft. lbs. so I am currently inclined to leave the P35 around 30 ft. lbs to preserve the ~70 shot count.  But I've seen that the regulator adjustment is inside the air storage tube and I've messed with the hammer spring a little to see what effect it had on accuracy.  So I'm sure I could increase power.  I also saw a youtube on getting the brass transfer port out and I drilled mine out on my Prod so I am familiar with doing that.  I also saw somebody offering power plenums.  Does that reduce air inventory?  It also seems to me that the barrel is unnecessarily short.  Another inch or two would still leave the gun nice and short and would pick up some velocity.  But unless mine stops shooting accurately I probably won't change it.  I fire polished it again with JBs today and I got three groups in a row with H&Ns slug HP .250 34 grain that averaged just over 1/4 inch at 25 yards.  The groups average a little bigger with pellets, H&N FTT seem to shoot the best of those I've tried, but my best group was with FTTs and was just 1/8th inch center to center. 

Light, quiet, powerful and accurate is a tough combination to beat.

Can't beat that... I think they are great platforms to work with...

Jim

[JimD]

I was messing around this morning and learned something I want to pass along, partially to help me remember.  I started out testing different shroud lengths but I was shooting so poorly I couldn't test anything.  I backed out to 33 yards but groups were almost all over an inch.  Lots of shots going high right.  So I started trying different holds and found I could avoid the high right fliers by better follow through.  If I hold it into my shoulder (like it actually had detectable recoil) with a little pressure on the fore end I can avoid the fliers and get groups back down around 1/4 inch.  This has probably been going on all along as I tested and I just got unusually relaxed about my shooting this morning. 

I've seen the same thing with my other two guns, especially the Prod which is almost exactly the same length as the P35.  My avenger is about 18 inches longer than these guns and seems more hold tolerant but will still shoot high right if I don't hold it decently. 

Seems like the biggest barrier to better accuracy with the P35 is me. 

[JimD]

I finally did a fairly long shot string with one pellet type today and thought somebody might be interested in how well the regulator in my P35 is doing.  I shot 25 H&N FTT through my gun and got an average velocity of 845 fps, spread of 14.1 fps and a std deviation of 3.74 fps.  Energy was 31.1 to 32.2 fpe.  My Avenger has done both better and worse than this but I think my P35's regulator is doing pretty well.  Especially when I have put less than 1,000 pellets through it.  Groups were not so great but not terrible, 1/2 to 1 inch at 30 meters. 

[JimD]

This may be my last update on this.  I've been frustrated that my groups fluctuated from 1/8 inch to an inch or occasionally a little more.  I thought it was my follow through.  I retested different hammer spring settings this morning thinking maybe it was not tuned properly.  But my previous setting shot the best group (about 3/16 at 30 meters). 

Then I looked down the barrel with a light shining in the breach.  Fabric from my hair curler modification was hanging into the pellet path!  I did not follow Aaron's design and use felt, I used a fabric remnant from Walmart.  I didn't want to drive 10 miles to hobby lobby.  When I saw this I still was not 100% sure it was the issue but I got the felt, installed it, and shot 5 groups (again at 30 meters).  The smallest was 1/4, the largest was 9/16.  The POI was high left close to an inch.  I fixed that as I shot the groups.  I think the POI shift is as good an evidence this was an issue as the smaller groups.  I sometimes did that well before fixing this.  I will continue to check but I think my issue is resolved.  The biggest groups were when I was not sure what was going on (due to the POI change).  The last group was the smallest - I was concentrating then.

If you do this, use felt, of course, the cheap stuff at hobby lobby is only 33 cents and is recycled plastic.  It should not break down.  I also think it's a good idea to align the baffle/curler combos as you insert then using a straw.  I use one when cleaning so I used that.  Once they are in, they get clamped in place so they should not shift around but it is possible for them to be tilted or not well centered if you don't align them with a straw. 

I am now pretty confident I can consistently shoot 1/4 to 1/2 inch groups at 33 yards now which is what I do with my other two guns.  Avenger probably does the best but I think that is mainly that it is longer and thus easier to shoot from the bench.  It's nice when things finally click.