Air safety standardizations?

[Airtillery]

I apologize if this topic is in the incorrect "Gate" as I wasn't sure where else I should raise this topic. 

As a fairly new air gunner, I recently had some incidents that could have easily caused me or someone within the immediate vicinity serious harm.  Fortunately no one was harmed, and without going into detail of the disconcerting incidents I experienced.  It made me wonder if the varying iterations of air propelled pistols, rifles, manuals and supporting accoutrement's, have some level of safety standards to adhere to.  Similarly to how UL (Underwriter Laboratories) assess and apply safety standards to the myriad of products sold and used here in the U.S. and other countries.

While my goal here is not to impugn any individual manufacturer's product or this industry as a whole, I do see and have personally experienced some concerning safety gaps in this sporting genre.  As such, I merely wish to better understand this topic and how it relates to our air sporting hobby.  In the hopes of preventing potential adverse events from occurring to other newbies, myself and even well seasoned veteran air gunners. 

I know I have much to learn.  And when I initially got into this sport, I truly thought my years of experience with firearms, both as a young civilian and later within the military, would also apply to air gunning.  However, air propelled platforms are much more complex than firearms, and there are many more things that can go wrong.  Some of these nuances are "NOT" common sense and also very difficult to predict.  They are also not always well explained by the manufacturers, dealers et al., and supporting manuals. 

Which brings me back to why I started this thread.  Which is to learn from other GTA members about how safety in this air sporting industry is perpetuated.       

[subscriber]

...without going into detail...   

So, we are to gather that you are concerned about risk, and want to make things better.  Great.  If you want to help us and have us help you, more detail is probably going to be required.

Safety comes from understanding.  Understanding comes after knowledge.  We don't know what your concerns are; thus can't help you.

Welcome to the forum.

[Cslinger]

Ummmm you kinda have to get into the “details” of “the incidents” if you want us to provide any insight.

People always seem to do this on shooting forums. Without details there is nothing to be gained and even if that knowledge is “YOU WERE AN IDIOT!” We have all been “AN IDIOT” and we have all had to be told so at some point or another.   No shame in learning from mistakes.

[Roadworthy]

Is there a question in there somewhere?  Treat all guns as loaded guns.  Don't point at anything you don't intend to shoot.  It's pretty simple.

[UlteriorModem]

Just google "air gun safety". You will find hundreds of links from various sources and manfacturers.

Here is a document prepared by the NRA.

https://coach.nra.org/media/4259/airgun_safetyguide.pdf

But yea common sense goes a long ways. There is no 'regulating body', thank goodness.

[bantam5s]

What could it possibly be ?

Some blowback co2 replicas will burp off a burst of full auto fire when the co2 cartridge is getting low, but other than that I can't really think of any other safety concern in airguns today that couldn't be prevented by common sense.

Most have lawyer triggers unless it's a target gun that the buyer will probably have the sense to be careful with, anti bear trap mechanisms in springers, safety devices built into PCP guns ...ect you name it.

That accidental burst co2 replicas sometimes do is the only one I can think of that can't really be prevented by the user.

[tjk]

When you get a gun, Read the owners manual! Lots of red triangle warnings. There is your safety instruction. Simple enough.

[subscriber]

how safety in this air sporting industry is perpetuated.     

Not being vague is a good place to start.

The complete list of what can happen and how to avoid trouble is multiple times the quoted section below, in general; with more specific info for certain platforms - as for the Huben further down.

Spring-piston airguns can remove fingers, if you pull the trigger with the action open and a finger in the breech area.  Some have mechanisms to minimize this risk, but if you value your digits, you should hold onto the cocking lever/barrel while loading the rear or of the barrel.

There is no extractor on an airgun.  The fastest way to clear a loaded chamber is to shoot the projectile out.  Or push it out with a cleaning rod inserted from the muzzle. 

It is possible to double or multiload many PCPs, thus risking a plugged barrel.  (Because there is not extractor).  Some PCPs have a feature that prevents double loading the chamber, but these are not standard.

Removing the magazine after loading the chamber does not make a PCP safe. 

PCPs with pressure regulators and removable air tanks, may have enough high pressure air left in their plenum to fire one or more shots with the air tank removed.

Most PCPs can be dry fired.  Many will dry fire when the magazine is empty.  Others will interrupt bolt motion, signaling an empty magazine.

Many PCPs can be fired without fully closing and fully locking the breech.  While this may blow out a breech seal, the energy delivered to bolt over such a short stroke with .177 and .22 PCPs, is not enough to do more than bruise a knuckle; and frighten the user with a loud noise.  Hearing damage may be the most pertinent concern.  On large bore PCPs, the potential for harm is greater because the larger bore generates more force to the bolt at a given pressure; and longer bolt reach into the breech provide a longer acceleration distance to transfer more energy to the bolt.  Some airguns have interrupts that work like a firearm disconnector, but many do not. 

When pulling the trigger on a PCP with the bolt all the way open, the hammer strike is reduced.  This reduces the potential damage/harm even further from the above.

If you take a PCP apart while under pressure you are looking to get seriously injured or killed.

Airguns will shoot through more than one layer of paper.

When you buy a vehicle, the user manual starts with the assumption that you know how to drive.  In similar fashion, airgun manuals assume you know how to use and handle airguns.  It is only when an airgun is different from others of the type that the manual is likely to offer more information.  For instance:

I don't own a Huben K1, but below is my understanding of the platform. Huben owners should feel free to correct me, but I think I score at least 95%, here:

The semi-auto Hubern K1 fires projectiles directly from the magazine.  There is no action required to load the chamber as one does with a firearm.  This means that apart from the safety switch, a Huben is always ready to fire when there is ammo in the mag and air pressure in the reservoir.  It will fire one shot per trigger pull until the mag is empty.  The mag cannot be removed to unload the gun. 

Thus, to make a Huben completely safe it needs to be:
Fired until the mag is empty.  Be careful of skipping a chamber when loading.  A single dry fire will create the impression that the mag is empty.
Or, projectiles need to be forced all the way through the mag with a rod of sorts;
Stored in a safe or locked box.

The above is good to know, but no harm will arise if you don't allow an airgun to point at anything you don't want to shoot; and don't use the trigger as a finger rest.


Probably not what you are looking for, but how can we help you focus, if you don't help us to help you?  Without such focus, your post comes across as the foundation for a sweeping "airguns are dangerous" campaign of sorts.  Sure they are.  It states that in every user manual.

[Airtillery]

Before I respond, I believe I made a mistake in my attempt to directly respond to those that replied to my topic.  I tried the "QUOTE" feature, but apparently I do not know how to use it correctly and inadvertently posted an incomplete "QUOTE".  So GTA Senior Contributor, please disregard my "QUOTQ" error.

Sorry all, I'm still learning how to navigate all the different forum posting features here.

Fair questions and points to those that replied, and my response as follows:

> GTA Senior Contributor: Please allow me to repost the "premise" of my topic as follows:

"It made me wonder if the varying iterations of air propelled pistols, rifles, manuals and supporting accoutrement's, have some level of safety standards to adhere to."

While risk assessment is a concern for the betterment (and self preservation) of this sport.  As indicated above, I simply inquired about "Safety Standards" within this industry, and do they exist?  If so, would someone proffer where I may refer to said industry "Safety Standards"?  Is there a U.L. of airgun experts and scientists that inspect and review airgun products to insure they are safe for public consumption?  I have no problem sharing the specific incidents that led to this topic, but for brevity's sake, I skipped the incident details, for my question was about "Safety Standards" in general.

> Cslinger:
Sorry, what I stated above applies as well.  As for being an idiot, I fully concur there is NO shame from learning from mistakes.  However, that also implies one had fore knowledge of a specific process or procedure and "failed" to follow the steps involved.  Since you ask for my incident details, here is one. 

As a brand new owner of an Evanix Rex, it's promoted as a great backpacking pcp.  Further stating, that with spare (full) air tanks you can just simply unscrew an empty tank and screw on a filled one to continue shooting.  Well unbeknown to me, whether by osmosis, from the manual, or the dealer, there are other precautions to be aware of while screwing on a full air tank.  "After" this particular "incident" with the Rex, I learned that some air tank valves stick out further than others.  When I screwed on the tank, the barrel and connected breech engaged & opened the valve.  Then in an instant, shot out about 3,600 psi (250 bar) of air out the barrel.  At the end of the barrel, I had a soft rubber plug to seal the shroud end to prevent any debris or moisture from entering the barrel.  Well the soft rubber plug was shot out, at who knows what fps, and embedded itself into my wall.  Again, at "NO" time was I advised about this eventuality, despite all my many questions about the Rex and watching a plethora of videos & reviews on the Rex.  Some of which even showed the reviewer removing an empty tank and installing a full, spare tank.  With NO mention of how the valve may be engaged when being screwed on. 

So clearly this was a safety issue and could have easily been prevented with the proper warnings in the manual, as well as from the dealer's who sold me the spare air tanks.  As a new air gunner, things like this are NOT "common sense"!  Air propelled systems are much more complex than the ubiquitous firearm.  As I got into this sport, I did much research and asked many, many questions to anyone that had the "patience" to address them, which unfortunately were few.  Sadly, my experience with some of those who represented X dealers were dismissive of my safety related and procedural based questions.  Now I have pretty thick skin, but even in this forum, we have some misunderstanding and misreading my post and focusing in on the wrong premise of what I posted.  I am sure this will cause some to potentially be riled up from what I just stated.  I'm really not trying to start a controversy, but have no compunction to address any misaligned comments.  I just simply want to know if the pcp's, co2 marker's, or any other air propelled device, their manuals and supporting accessories have in fact been tested, reviewed and deemed safe and by whom?  I just got in this sport and in less than one year had multiple incidents that could have caused me or maybe less safety conscious individuals as me serious harm.

> Roadworthy:
Nice classic bike you have pictured.  Yes, there was a question.  Sorry I wasn't clear enough in my phrasing for you to catch it & as stated as follows: "It made me "WONDER" if the varying iterations of air propelled pistols, rifles, manuals and supporting accoutrement's, have some level of safety standards to adhere to."  To paraphrase, I am asking: Do such things exist in this industry, or do we have have to take it on faith this is done and every air propelled pcp or the like is safe without any safety flaws or nuances in the design or manuals that may cause one any harm?  I disagree that air propelled systems are simple, and that "ALL" you have to worry about, as you state, is to treat all guns as loaded and be pointed in a safe direction with a safe backstop.  I've come to discover, that each air based guns, tanks, valves, etc., have their own unique designs, with seemingly inherent safety flaws that to be able to understand or even predict, you would need a degree in both mechanical and pneumatic physics. 

> UlteriorModem: 
Thanks for the NRA link!  I've not seen or read this before.  Common sense, as it relates to air propelled guns, I believe only comes with experience.  Not everyone has a degree in pneumatic physics or years shooting pcp's and the like.  Some things, like the incident example above can only come from being educated (or told) on the inner workings and dynamics of pcp's.  If there was a mistake on my end, was simply believing what I was told and then not exploring deeper as to the all the physics behind a pcp.  Which there again, is a very complex prospect for a newbie to ascertain by simply reading a manual, many of which by the way, do not even come close to explaining all the potential safety issues.  I am torn on the presence of a regulatory body.  But if this industry can police itself from the inside, I am all for it.  However, I think having regulations on HPA tanks is not a bad thing, in my humble opinion.  We certainly don't need a rash of exploding tanks ruining a persons day or life.  Maybe I'm wrong on HPA tanks and hydrotesting requirements, but can human nature be trusted to "NOT" take short cuts to save a buck or two.  I think there should be some rules and standards to help guide its' participants to be safe.  So far, I think I have been very lucky to have not been injured or maimed in the adverse incidents I have experienced in such a short period of time. 

Thanks for your commentary and sorry I didn't address each individual at this time, as I'm sure this post is much, much too long already.  In summary, after the above described incident, along the other scary ones I had, is what gave birth to my curiosity about this industry and if or how safety considerations are addressed, shared or regulated.  Again, I'm just a newbie air gunner trying to increase my knowledge and self preservation.  As I shoot for the enjoyment of this incredibly awesome and exciting platform.

[subscriber]

Thanks for the detail, Airtillery

PCP tank rupture strength does follow specific standards for design and testing.  Those over 2" in diameter are supposed to be hydro tested at 10 year intervals, or discarded.

I am not aware of a UL type body that pressure tests airguns sold in the US.  I think that the major distributors have a vested interest to ensure that the airgun manufacturers do proper design and manufacturing quality verification.  Air Venturi would be such a company, that imports many airgun and related products.

I will go and study the Evanix Rex to see what idiosyncrasies it might have.  Many PCPs with removable tanks will hiss as you screw them on or off.  However, the volume of air that escapes should be very small. 

If you have multiple tanks, please compare the distance from the seal to the valve.  If one leaks and the others not, there has to be a difference.  Are they all Evanix brand?  Is there any model number on the tank?  How do they compare.  Are the tanks new or used?

I have one PCP with removable tank.  The actual firing valve exists in the tank.  This might have the potential for the valve striker to push open the valve as the tank is fitted, and yet it does not.  It is a matter of system design with a rebounding striker that prevents  this. 

What if they system malfunctions, or a piece of debris gets onto the top of the airtank, and holds open the valve open as you screw on the tank?  This does point to a differentiation between PCPs and fire arms:

With a firearm, an empty chamber means there is no projectile AND no energy source.  With a PCP, the energy source and projectile are independently loaded.  One may be present without the other.  Any time either the projectile is loaded, or the air tank is installed should be considered a potential firing event, with safe stop barrel pointing direction practiced.

By placing a plug in the barrel, you effectively loaded a projectile.  Thus, the valve failure you describe turned this mistake into a firing event.   My suggestion is that you place an external rubber or flexible plastic cap over the muzzle.  The shorter the distance a cap or plug travels, the less energy an air leak or firing event can impart.  The weaker and more stretchable the cap, the less energy it can build and deliver as an inadvertent projectile.

For instance; these caps are cheap: 
https://www.mcmaster.com/plastic-caps/for-shape~round/round-caps-9/
Finger "condoms" you could shoot through, if in a hurry:  https://www.mcmaster.com/finger-cots/size~xl/

The fact that PCPs do not have a projectile extractor, and that a loaded chamber cannot be easily identified, would make the problem you described potential much worse. 

What I do to mitigate this risk is to open the breech whenever I am handling a PCP airgun with a non-shooting hold.  This includes pumping up a fixed air tank, or screwing on or off a removable one.  With the breech open, the barrel will vent out the breech, even if there is a projectile or plug loaded into the barrel.

The above is smart practice in general and essential, when the fill gauge requires you to look at the air tank from the muzzle end.


Cheers

subscriber is my user name, because nebulous was not available...


EDIT:  Here is the Evanix Rex user manual; in case you don't have it:
 https://www.krale.shop/media/blfa_files/Evanix_Rex_Rex_P_manual_EN-min.pdf

I will give it a look-see later tonight.

[subscriber]

https://www.krale.shop/media/blfa_files/Evanix_Rex_Rex_P_manual_EN-min.pdf

From the manual; at the bottom of page 4 (# as shown in document. Page 5, as shown in viewer) there is a warning in red.  Warning repeated at top of next page:

Do NOT let the pressure in your reservoir drop below
100 bar (approx. 1450 psi) because there may not be
enough pressure to close the bolt valve, and all
remaining air will leak out. The gun will have to be sent in for repair.

If the tank you screwed on had its pressure below 100 BAR, then the event you experienced would be expected to happen.  If you had multiple tanks in your backpack and inadvertently screwed on one that was already shot low, the above could occur...

The manual states to leave the hammer uncocked.  It is well known that with onboard PCPs the hammer often needs to be cocked to enable an airtank to be pumped up from zero.  Else the hammer may hold open the valve enough to leak air.  So, there is some pressure at which the hammer may still keep the valve open when a new tank is screwed on.   Usually, this pressure is quite low.  If that threshold pressure is 100 BAR for this Evanix that would explain the warning above. 

In any event, my admonition to open the breech when changing or charging airtanks would prevent an instant firing event.  However, subsequent decocking may have caused what you experienced with a tank below 100 BAR, with this platform (if I understood correctly).  If so, that would be very different from most other PCPs.  With most PCPs, you can let the hammer or striker rest on the valve when the tank pressure is perhaps 500 PSI, without air leaking through the valve.

Such a high minimum pressure seems unusual, but it is stated clearly in the manual.  And flagged as a warning in red. 

I will read the rest of the manual later.

[subscriber]

I see no other clues in the user manual.  Or half a dozen videos on youtube.

[null]

Airguns are no different than firearms in my eyes. They both use a gas propellant to sling lead. They both can kill -- even the 5FPE guns if not handled with due diligence.

I certainly would not want a .177 or a .22 (or higher) coming at me from any of my guns.

I've gotten injured shooting plastic both with regular firearms and airguns. I broken windows from ricochets with both firearms and airguns.

Again, to me, both guns are the same. The only part that is different is in some laws, but even then not entirely.

With that being said, hush, so we don't the safety police get all stirred up.

[Cslinger]

I will have to let the “PCP” guys work with your issue as I don’t feel like I have enough knowledge to add anything.  I will confirm that it is common for a PCP gun to exhaust all remaining pressure if shot down past a certain point like the 100 bar listed above.  This is usually in the manual. 

Just for the record I wasn’t CALLING YOU AN IDIOT. I was just trying to get details from you and sometimes when we do something stupid we don’t want to fess up to it. (As in ALL of us) so if that had been the case I wanted you to be aware that we’d all been there with something or another and either we personally could learn from it or others could.

Good luck with the Evanix.

[Madd Hatter]

Excellent write up subscriber.👍👍👍 I was going to point out the same thing about having a rubber plug in the barrel. It's effectively loaded and someone with a firearm wouldn't work on it with a round in the chamber.

[Roadworthy]

Thank you for the well stated response.  It makes things much more clear.  I did not know if your were addressing operator safety or manufacturer safety.  Manufacturers do meet certain safety standards and they do vary by airgun type.  The tanks and accessories for PCP airguns must also meet safety standards.  Those pressures can be lethal but the volume is generally small enough to minimize the risk.  Thousands enjoy safe airgunning whether PCP or springer without incident.  Don't dwell too long on dangers which will never materialize.  Common sense is good, though uncommon.  Enjoy the sport.  The bike, by the way, is a fully restored 1972 Triumph Bonneville T120-V (currently in need of front fork seals).

[UlteriorModem]

Evanix Rex seems an unusual starting point.

[null]

Evanix Rex seems an unusual starting point.

I wouldn't judge...

I just sold a friend on a Daystate Red Wolf Safari in .22 cal as their FIRST ever airgun, along with an Athlon Midas TAC scope, an EC-3000 compressor, and they bought a 10k rounds of .22 of JSB to start with. You go add up the price on that one... and don't forget absurd NYS sales tax.

[jmoronic]

Very interesting issues. Subscriber, well put and to the point.

[Airtillery]

Thanks fella's and (fellow'ettes) for extending your valuable time to read and address my long winded points to this topic!  I truly do appreciate each of the expressed suggestions, cited references and opinions to help advance my understanding of this awesome sporting genre.  There is always something new to learn.  I think when I first got into this, I was overwhelmed with all the new terms and processes required to operate an air gun and its' supporting equipment.  For someone that less than a year ago didn't even know that air guns even existed, it was almost like learning a foreign language.   

Cslinger: I really knew that you didn't call me an idiot and didn't take it that way, lol. 

Roadworthy: I thought is was a Bonnie, but didn't want to refer to something it wasn't.  Once I was stationed in Germany and took a trip to England to visit a friend.  He let me ride his Bonnie while busy teaching his philosophy class.  I was in a quaint housing neighborhood that initially had no traffic.  So I just took off as if I was in the U.S., on the wrong side of the street mind you.  And when a car was headed my way, like an idiot, I flashed the headlight and was frantically waiving my arms to try and summon the driver to get on the right side of the street.  For a moment, I completely forgot where I was at and got called a "bloody bloke American" a few times and was vehemently reminded I was in England, lol.  Aside from that, I had a great time cruising around on a classic Bonnie!   

Well I am going to call it quits for now and again, I greatly appreciate each of your replies!