New to PCP - AV Avenger .25 Regulator creep

[Tim F]

I am new to the PCP world. I received my AV Avenger 25 about 2.5 weeks ago from PA. It had 1900 psi on both the fill and reg., hand pumped it up to 3300 psi and the reg read 3000. I shot it a few times then degassed, then closed reg. and turned CCW 1/4 turn. Pumped it back up to 3300 psi.
I adjusted the reg. up to 1500 psi, the next day the reg. read 1900. I thought the HS setting may have had something with the issue. I did a test at 25 yards, fist group was as the gun HS set at factory setting (3-1/4 tuns), then turned HS (0 turns) all the way down, shot a group and another with HS 1 turn and another at 2 turns. Best group was HS 1 turn in. After 28 Shots it was down to 2100 psi on fill side and reg side was 1500 psi. After about 4 hours the reg was at 1700 psi. I let it set a  couple of days and all was still the same, increased the fill side to 3100 psi and and the reg. went to 1900 psi in about 4 hours and has stayed there since. My question is, is this normal or is this something I should look at returning the gun to PA. Thanks for any information, starting to feel like Alice in Wonder Land, rabbit holes. Sorry for the detail I come from a programming back ground.

[Back_Roads]

 You may experience this for several fills to above 3000 psi, it should settle in if not I would send it in under warranty, or if into tinkering take it apart taking photos and notes polish all the internals and replace seals and hope for the best.

[JimD]

When the storage cylinder pressure falls below the regulator pressure the regulator starts indicating the storage cylinder pressure.  I think this is normal.  My 25 caliber arrived with 1900 psi showing on both gauges.  But it leaked.  I sent it to AV and 5 weeks later I got it back without leaking.

I also set the regulator low initially (after degassing),  I set it at 1500 and it creeped up to 1600, I think.  It's hard to read the little gauge very precisely.  I did not often fill it to 4,000 when hand pumping.  But I did a couple times.  I got over 30 ft lbs at this low regulator setting. 

More recently I got a Yong Heng and a SCBA tank and have filled it to 4,000 a lot more times.  I have the regulator set to 2400 psi and I get about 50 ft. lbs.  The velocity benefit gets rapidly smaller above about 2,000 psi, however.  But I think I am seeing the regulator pressure drop when the tank pressure is still above the regulator but closer to it.  To maybe 2100 or 2200.  That won't change velocity all that much in that range but I do not consider that normal.  But it may be for the Avenger regulator.  I need to try it a few more times this week including measuring the velocity when I see it go down.  My earlier tests gave me a velocity less than 40 fps lower with 25.4 grain pellets at a 2000 regulator setting than I got at 2400.  At 2200 I was only about 10 fps less.  So even if it is going down it won't make the velocity spread all that huge.  It also suggests I should probably just degass and set it lower, like to 2100 or 2200.  I also get about 900 fps on the 25.4 grain pellets at 2400 which some suggest is too high for best accuracy. 

So I think the regulator in my Avenger isn't totally stable but I am not sure it means much. 

[crazyhorse1]

I fill my Avenger .22 to 3600 psi and reg is set at 2200 with no creep. Avoid higher fill pressures to protect regulator.

[Texpatriate]

It's probably a good idea to not store the gun with fill pressure above reg set pressure.

[JimD]

A key advantage of a PCP for me is the ability to store it with air ready to go.  No chance I will lower the pressure to the reg setting for storage.  If it won't take that, it will get replaced.  I have let it sit for a week or two with 4,000 psi in it.  But maybe 3,500 makes more sense. 

[CableStop]

I agree with Jim, a seal should work up to it's max rated pressure without issue no matter how long it sits.  If it leaks after being exposed to pressure long term then the seal shouldn't be rated that high.  Going to 4500 PSI is more than a Huma reg can withstand in my experience but the difference is they're only rated to 3000 PSI which gives them a 1.5x margin.  It appears AV use delrin as a seal material like Huma does so I'd imagine the same problem occurs, it may work for a little while but eventually it gets too compressed to seal correctly.  For pressures above 4000 PSI you need PEEK or similar to seal reliably in my opinion, and using such a hard material can cause creep in it's own right too unless it's very well finished. 

[Tim F]

Thanks for all of the insight. I am still working refill cycles @ 3000 + psi, been through 4 so far. I don't go over 3400 since I hand pump. This gun is a far cry from the Benjamin Titan. Today it shot a 3/8" group @ 34 yards in a 14 -32 mph wind. Hopefully this will correct with more refill cycles. I have seen some discussion about putting chamber oil in the fill port, I was wondering if this might have any value. Thanks again.

[Texpatriate]

These pages are full of posts about leaks at fill valve etc. It's not unreasonable to think that at some point the high pressure side may become the low pressure side which could cause potential problems.
You can do what you want. I keep my unregulated guns fully charged most all the time. The regulated ones, if I'm storing them more than a couple of days, I shoot down to set point or below.

[nervoustrigger]

A creeping regulator is not a terminal condition.  Dressing the valve seat smooth and flat has turned even no-name $15 paintball regs from Aliexpress into solid performers.

How long it will stay that way involves a number of factors but the solution is always the same ^^^

If you have the means to do it, replacing soft seat materials like nylon with something more durable like Delrin, PET-P, PAI, or PEEK can improve longevity.

My regulated rifles live their lives filled or very nearly so.

[Madd Hatter]

The reg needs to break in. The reg in my liberty use to creep badly especially when you filled it. Now,it sits right where it's set. Liberty is made by the same company as the avenger.

[Tim F]

Thanks for the encouragement, I have spent 2 years working on a Benjamin Titan NP with little to success, so I am a little skeptical being new in the PCP world. It is shooting great out to 35 yards (1/4" to 5/16" groups) with JSB 25.39 & AA 25.4. It's one of the new wood stock version, I would hate to send it back for a minor issue. Thanks again.

[nervoustrigger]

Regulator creep is little more than a nuisance for a gun used for target shooting exclusively...if it’s bad enough to produce an errant velocity on the first shot, that is.  Tuning to the velocity knee will mask a small amount of creep.

Where it becomes unacceptable is with a gun used for hunting or pest control.

[Tim F]

Jason thanks for the information. This rifle is used primarily for hunting & pest control. That said, I did a test yesterday that seems hopeful. reg. set point 1500 psi, fill side was 3200 psi , reg. showed 1900 psi, 5 shot group of 5/16" x 5/16" @ 27.4 yards JSB 25.39 pellets. I thought the first shot might have had a different POI, it didn't. My next group was with same setting except reg. showed 1600 psi and I used AA 25.4 pellets and that 5 shot group was 1/4"x1/4". I will try this at 35 and 50 yards to see if the first shot with reg. creep changes POI, if that checks out I will move out to 75 & 100 yards. Currently, I don't have a chronograph so I have been changing the hS 1 turn at a time to find the most accurate group. When I get one I will adjust it on the knee as you suggested. Thanks again.

[Trucker3573]

A key advantage of a PCP for me is the ability to store it with air ready to go.  No chance I will lower the pressure to the reg setting for storage.  If it won't take that, it will get replaced.  I have let it sit for a week or two with 4,000 psi in it.  But maybe 3,500 makes more sense.

You absolutely don’t need to do that. I believe several responders didn’t even read what you originally posted and a few others just don’t know what they are saying. I would tend to go with you may see this for a few fills but it should break in and settle. If you are just filling the gun back up and seeing reg pressure change you may just need to fire 4-5 shots to let it settle in to where it will like to be. If it’s changing while shooting that is different.

[faelzimxds2]

Can anyone tell me what the thread on the Avenger gauges is if it is m8 or m10.

I have the impression that the gauges on my .22 do not mark correctly, I am thinking of replacing them.

[faelzimxds2]

A creeping regulator is not a terminal condition.  Dressing the valve seat smooth and flat has turned even no-name $15 paintball regs from Aliexpress into solid performers.

How long it will stay that way involves a number of factors but the solution is always the same ^^^

If you have the means to do it, replacing soft seat materials like nylon with something more durable like Delrin, PET-P, PAI, or PEEK can improve longevity.

My regulated rifles live their lives filled or very nearly so.

Hi, I have my Avenger and I am seriously thinking about putting a 500cc bottle and using a Chinese paintball regulator instead of the Avenger's regulator itself. I believe it must be better, I don't know. I have a Nova Liberty and I had a lot of headaches with the terrible regulator that she had, I had to send it to an Armory to fix it.

[Gone Fishing]

Regulator creep is little more than a nuisance for a gun used for target shooting exclusively...if it’s bad enough to produce an errant velocity on the first shot, that is.  Tuning to the velocity knee will mask a small amount of creep.

Where it becomes unacceptable is with a gun used for hunting or pest control.

Ditto