Jacketed 22 bullets

[Whee]

Can jacketed  bullets be used in a 22cal air gun? If not why.

[Back_Roads]

 Or something like this

[jmoronic]

Never tried it, I would also think the weight would be too much for most air guns.
I mean as far as specs. go a .223 should go down the barrel with enough energy behind it.
So if you are going down this road, I guess a 17HMR could be pushed through a .177 barrel.
All just a guess, I can't think of a reason I would ever do it.

[bduares]

I mean as far as specs. go a .223 should go down the barrel with enough energy behind it.
So if you are going down this road, I guess a 17HMR could be pushed through a .177 barrel.
All just a guess, I can't think of a reason I would ever do it.

With lead projectiles .22 airguns are normally .217 or .218 while .22 RF are normally .225. Most .22 airguns can manage a projectile weight around 18 grains nicely, with 25-30 grains being on the "heavy" side for a fairly strong PCP rifle. .22 RF slugs are normally 55 grains, though the (seldom found these days) .22 short RF are 29 grains.  For a standard .22 RF LR or short to fit into an airgun the slug would need to be resized down to a .218 or .217 from a .225. It can be done, with best results coming from resizing in multiple steps of about .02 smaller each step, but the end result after slimming it down that much is something that most likely would not fly very well out of your airgun.

That is for lead projectiles. Jacketed projectiles, depending on the jacket material, are another matter. Being much harder than lead they will not resize anywhere near as easily as lead projectiles and may even deform rather drastically in the resizing. The weight of the projectile will also be thrown off from the attempt.

Finally, depending on whether or not your airgun takes a magazine or is single shot, a standard .22 RF sized projectile (after resizing) might fit in a single shot tray but it would not fit in most airgun magazines.

As far as jacketed airgun slugs, some airguns specifically state in their manuals that jacketed projectiles will void the warranty. Probably has something to do with possibly scarring the inside of the barrel. Airguns being half (or less) of the fps and many times less in fpe than most PBs makes the necessity of jacketed slugs with an airgun a non-issue and a novelty. The primary reason for a jacketed slug in a PB is for smooth feeding in a stacked magazine. Airguns don't have that issue. The next reason for a jacketed slug is to prevent lead fouling in a barrel from it being heated by the PBs hot gasses and melting a bit. Again, airguns do not have that issue. Jacketed slugs also have more issues with expansion than pure lead slugs since they are made of a much harder outer material. This issue is usually overcome by the PBs greater energy output, but some still have problems with expansion after hitting thick clothing. Again, no useful application as far as airguns is concerned. They "look cool" but that's about it.

[Mole2017]

This thread, https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=184914.0, started with copper split pellets/slugs and has morphed into DIY split lead slugs that are really effective. You might try that route.

[Firewalker]

Can jacketed  bullets be used in a 22cal air gun? If not why.

Tried it and failed. No seal in the barrel, no engraving on the jacket, no exit from the barrel.

[subscriber]

Can jacketed  bullets be used in a 22cal air gun? If not why.

Paul,

Lead jacketed, yes.  Copper jacketed, probably not: 

The fundamental problem is the force required to engrave a copper jacketed projectile into the rifling.  That, and the frictional forces that would need to be overcome all the way down the barrel.  With firearms you have anywhere from 18000 to 65000 PSI maximum allowable pressure, depending on caliber:  http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm  Typical peak operating pressures may be one or two thousand PSI lower than the peaks listed at the link.

Airgun operating pressures are anywhere from 800 to 4500 PSI, with most PCPs peak driving pressure somewhere between 1000 and 3000 PSI.  Spring airguns have peak pressures of perhaps 1500 to 3500 PSI, but much lower average pressures (so less power to offset the greater frictional losses with copper jacketed slugs, compared to ordinary narrow head and skirt contact lead pellets)
 
What really matters is the forces involved; and force = pressure x area.  Larger caliber projectiles have friction increase proportional to their diameter (circumference to be more exact), but their area increases proportional to the square diameter.  The bearing length is also very important with regard to friction.  So, if you wanted to experiment with jacketed airgun projectiles, larger calibers and shorter bullets would be the place to start. 

My bet is that a .22 caliber copper jacketed projectile that seals the bore properly would be very difficult to load fully into the chamber.  If the bullet were a "just loose" fit on loading, as with firearm cartridges, the copper jacketed airgun projectile would probably just sit still in the chamber on firing, with the air hissing past it.   

If you managed to ram a copper .22 caliber copper jacket bullet fully into the rifling on loading without distorting its base, the static friction would still be so high that even the 118 lb force applied with 3000 PSI peak air pressure probably would not be enough to budge it.  If that pressure were enough to break it loose, the muzzle velocity would probably be so low due to total barrel friction that there would be zero advantage to using a copper jacket projectile in the first place. 

If you used a smaller diameter copper jacketed bullet (or larger bore diameter barrel) to reduce the bullet to barrel friction, the air leakage past the projectile would go way up.  So, it might still get stuck, or shoot at reduced velocity.

There is a reason why most airgun pellets and slugs are made of pure lead, or have very low amounts of hardening metals in their alloy - typically antimony:  Soft lead works better at the comparatively low pressure, low velocity and low energy airguns produce than anything else.  Which is the flipside of the same reasons why copper bullets or copper jackets would not work very well; if at all. 

The exception would be to shoot a copper bullet (or copper jacketed bullet) using a plastic sabot.  This could eliminate the high friction problem, but it probably won't be very accurate.  This due to the concentricity required, using a sabot that sheds predictably.  A lack of concentricity, or inconsistent or asymmetrical release after leaving the muzzle would yield poor on target performance:   

40 years ago Remington marketed their accelerator round.  The .30-06 accelerator fired a .22 caliber 55 grain copper jacketed bullet at 4000 FPS, using a discarding  plastic sabot.  They were not nearly as accurate as the same .22 caliber bullets fired directly from a .22-250, for example and the whole point of the round was lost.  Thus, no small arms ammo like that is still made or sold today.

Could you apply a thin non-discarding teflon cladding to a copper jacked bullet and shoot it from an airgun?  Perhaps.  If you were trying to make money with it, you might find investors skittish after you explain your business plan to them.

Any question that is posed about what is possible should include the goal.  Why would you want to shoot a copper jacked bullet from an airgun?  You cannot match firearm velocities with airguns, for any given caliber.  Thus the projectiles will neither penetrate nor expand as well as they would from the appropriate firearm.  Thus the idea seems pointless.  Or, perhaps you might be kind enough to explain what we might be missing?


PS:  I think this has been mentioned already:  Most commercial copper jacketed .22 bullets are .224" diameter.  Most .22 caliber airguns have barrels with a groove diameter 0.004 to 0.007" smaller than that.  The high friction force, loading distortion, low velocity and potential for sticking in the barrel of an airgun explained above, would be even worse than if the bullet and barrel diameters were better matched.  So, you are probably talking about a custom copper jacketed projectile.  Or a custom airgun using a firearm barrel.

If that is not reason enough,  copper jacketed rifle bullets would need a faster rifling twist than is typical for air rifles.  About twice as fast...  Perhaps more at the low velocities airguns are likely to shoot copper jacket rifle bullets. 


This is what can be done with custom lead bullets, fired from a custom air rifle:




Sharp nose lead bullets:





More practical:

https://www.militaryairgun.com/60-ammunition





https://nielsenspecialtyammo.com/collections/22-caliber

[kimoleto]

Great explanation there!!! I´ve allways interested in jacketed or sabot bullets for my PCP´s (.25, .30 and .40)... unfortunatelly they dont seem to be a real option, tofazfou (Cedric) reported terrible results with sabots and your explanation on jackets leaves no room for doubts.  Can we use teflon or some other plastic as an alternative to metal jackets? Friction would be minimized, velocity might increase...but it would be expensive and difficult (how to adhere a lead core to a teflon/plastic jacket?) nevertheless it might be an option

[subscriber]

Ruben,

Many lead bullets are powder paint coated.  Such paint is actually a plastic where the powder particles are heat fused (a combination of melting and chemical bonding of two or more polymers).  The melting point of the plastic obviously must be below the melting point of the lead (or even softening or slumping point).

Commercial paint powder is applied electrostatically, to ensure and even coating thickness, before heat curing.  I am sure this could be duplicated for lead projectiles, providing they can be placed on a conductive tray, where powder cannot melt onto the tray pockets where the bullets are placed.  Else, the trays would require frequent cleaning, or the electrostatic aspect would not work to ensure even paint coating thickness.

Could such powder paint include low friction plastics, such as high density polyethylene?   What about Teflon?   While I frequent the Holiday Inn Express, I am not a powder coating expert

The friction of lead, or lubricated lead is pretty low already.  Other than the need for cleaning lead from the barrel, what problem are we trying to solve?  Will plastic build up in an air rifle barrel the way it does in a shotgun barrel?  Or is the speed and temperature too low?

[kimoleto]

electrostatic paint works, you dont need all that fancy stuff, place the projectiles with some paint in a plastic container and shake it... paint will adhere to the bullets by means of the static generated by rubbing, place them in a metal tray  in an electric oven (toaster) (check paint coverage first), cant remember the temp but in 15 - 20 minutes its done

[Mrblonde40]

I'm with subscriber on why you'd want to try.  I'm thinking a bunch of pent up air behind a object that is too big or too heavy (or both) to move.  I think best case scenario is stuck pellet, I think more likely, if you manage to jam it in, gun damage, or personal injury.  Now if you're just looking for a copper jacket, H&N has a copper jacketed pellet, I think it's the Baracuda Power.  But it all comes back to the question of what are you trying to accomplish, maybe then we could recommend suitable alternatives or options.

[subscriber]

I presume copper plated pure lead airgun slugs could work; just like copper plated lead pellets - below.  Still not sure what value that brings; or what problem it solves (other than not handling lead).

Perhaps it reduces barrel leading, at the expense of copper build-up...


https://www.pyramydair.com/product/crosman-premier-copper-magnum-22-cal-14-4-grains-domed-150ct?p=1351




https://www.pyramydair.com/product/h-n-field-target-trophy-power-copper-plated-22-cal-14-66-grains-round?p=976

[Firewalker]

electrostatic paint works, you dont need all that fancy stuff, place the projectiles with some paint in a plastic container and shake it... paint will adhere to the bullets by means of the static generated by rubbing, place them in a metal tray  in an electric oven (toaster) (check paint coverage first), cant remember the temp but in 15 - 20 minutes its done

Powder coated boolits are easy to make with a cheap ES gun from harbor fright or using the shak-n-bake method.  ES will give more uniform results but a sizing die brings them back to round.

Below: .223 boolit 40gr, shortened from a 55gr boolit. Powder coated with Smokes Red. Shoots fine from my Prowler .22 but will not fit my DAR .22.

[subscriber]

Shoots fine from my Prowler .22

Thanks David

By fine, you mean the projectiles exit the muzzle and make round holes in the target?

What velocity, energy and grouping ability do these slugs have, compared to pellets?  At what distance? 

Would you shoot such slugs at targets or live critters, if you had pellets on hand?

[jmoronic]

I mean as far as specs. go a .223 should go down the barrel with enough energy behind it.
So if you are going down this road, I guess a 17HMR could be pushed through a .177 barrel.
All just a guess, I can't think of a reason I would ever do it.

With lead projectiles .22 airguns are normally .217 or .218 while .22 RF are normally .225. Most .22 airguns can manage a projectile weight around 18 grains nicely, with 25-30 grains being on the "heavy" side for a fairly strong PCP rifle. .22 RF slugs are normally 55 grains, though the (seldom found these days) .22 short RF are 29 grains.  For a standard .22 RF LR or short to fit into an airgun the slug would need to be resized down to a .218 or .217 from a .225. It can be done, with best results coming from resizing in multiple steps of about .02 smaller each step, but the end result after slimming it down that much is something that most likely would not fly very well out of your airgun.

That is for lead projectiles. Jacketed projectiles, depending on the jacket material, are another matter. Being much harder than lead they will not resize anywhere near as easily as lead projectiles and may even deform rather drastically in the resizing. The weight of the projectile will also be thrown off from the attempt.

Finally, depending on whether or not your airgun takes a magazine or is single shot, a standard .22 RF sized projectile (after resizing) might fit in a single shot tray but it would not fit in most airgun magazines.

As far as jacketed airgun slugs, some airguns specifically state in their manuals that jacketed projectiles will void the warranty. Probably has something to do with possibly scarring the inside of the barrel. Airguns being half (or less) of the fps and many times less in fpe than most PBs makes the necessity of jacketed slugs with an airgun a non-issue and a novelty. The primary reason for a jacketed slug in a PB is for smooth feeding in a stacked magazine. Airguns don't have that issue. The next reason for a jacketed slug is to prevent lead fouling in a barrel from it being heated by the PBs hot gasses and melting a bit. Again, airguns do not have that issue. Jacketed slugs also have more issues with expansion than pure lead slugs since they are made of a much harder outer material. This issue is usually overcome by the PBs greater energy output, but some still have problems with expansion after hitting thick clothing. Again, no useful application as far as airguns is concerned. They "look cool" but that's about it.

I agree, I was just entertaining the question. I should not have said specs. I don't know why anyone would want to do it, but to each thier own.

[Firewalker]

Shoots fine from my Prowler .22

Thanks David

By fine, you mean the projectiles exit the muzzle and make round holes in the target?

What velocity, energy and grouping ability do these slugs have, compared to pellets?  At what distance? 

Would you shoot such slugs at targets or live critters, if you had pellets on hand?

Fine as in OK. Shoots, makes round holes at 10m, no chrony info, to much trouble to make but they do work.

[subscriber]

Am I the only one frustrated by the apparent lack of interest displayed by the originator of this thread?

[Firewalker]

Am I the only one frustrated by the apparent lack of interest displayed by the originator of this thread?

Nah... I always have the option to not read a post.

I do think I will plate a few pellets since I am plating some bolts for a non-AG project this week. I have some pellets that could use another thou on the head.

[subscriber]

Nah... I always have the option to not read a post.

I think you misunderstood.  I was addressing this post - and the answers to it:  https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=186556.msg156141641#msg156141641

[DevilsLuck]

This thread has me wondering about the efficacy of a lead jacketed, copper projectile...