Author Topic: Swag-O-Matic .357 (Read 1480 times))

bduares · « **on:** March 19, 2021, 02:23:25 AM »

I received a "new to me" semi-antique CH Swag-O-Matic today with .357 die installed. I didn't have any cast bullets to pop into it, but I did have a couple of boxes of Hornandy 143 gr. .457 round balls for my BP pistol, so I decided to put one into the Swag-O-Matic and see what it would do. After a few changes of the die press length out popped a cute little 143 gr. .357 slug, measuring .3575 on the calipers. Too easy!

Still waiting for my 30# of lead to arrive that I ordered, but I did receive the first of two LEE double cavity 356-102-1R molds today. I plan on casting on those, then swagging them and powder coating them for my soon to arrive .357 AEA Challenger

Greg_E · « **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2021, 12:37:54 PM »

Please forgive my lack of knowledge, but why are you going to cast and then swage? Is it to push a hollow point into them?

How long is the mag on the AEA, that 102gr seems kind of light. I have the Lee 356-125-2r mold and have popped out a few for my Bulldog, I did powder coat and not powder coat since the size was right where it needed to be at .357. I did size the PC ones to .358 and to .357 to see which size shot best. The PC slugs are supper slippery in the mag and a little too short, need to step up to a longer (heavier) slug for that gun. My dad has some .358 SWC in 145gr molds I may try.

bduares · « **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2021, 02:44:24 PM »

Swaging is adjustable while the molds are not, and is also more exact in it's finished product. I have one mold at the moment, in 102 grain, and a 158 grain mold on the way. The molds alone will be ok, but the swage press gives me more options as far as weight. If I want a lighter slug than is cast then I simply crank down the swage die a bit and it presses a little more lead off the slug while leaving the shape exactly the same, and ready for use if I want to put it straight into the gun. I can also pop a ball bearing into the swage press before placing in the lead and create a cup base instead of flat. It just gives more options to try easily. Once I have my 158 mold I will then be able to make slugs weighing anywhere from 102 to 158 grains, all exactly the same shape and diameter, without buying any more molds.

If I had been able to find simple core molds of a couple of differing grain weights I would have probably gone that route. At the time I ordered the first mold I did not have the swage press. Once I saw the swager and watched some videos of what it could do I decided that would be a simpler way to try out different weights of slug whenever I wanted. Since it is more cost effective to buy lead in bulk ingots than as wire on a spool I went that route, but then have the issue of getting the ingots into the swager. Hence casting to slugs first.

I'm sure I will play around with the slugs as cast but, once I find what the gun likes as far as weight, I want to make uniform slugs and be done with it, and a swage is the easiest way to make an exact slug again and again. Also, as I learned playing with the BP .457 ball, I can pop just about anything lead into it of any caliber within reason and the result will be something my gun can shoot immediately. I can also add gas checks to the bottom and make semi-jacketed slugs all in one press. Steel BB pressed into a slug tip? No problem. Lot's of options that a mold alone can't give me.

Lack of knowledge is all that I have as well. I have never cast a bullet, and I am new to this too. I try to look at things logistically and figure out what works the simplest way. I read the posts, watch the videos, and I am sure I will make a lot of mistakes as I go along, but it will be an adventure. I may, since I don't "know how", even come up with a new or different way to do something just because I don't know it is the "wrong" way.

102 gr may seem "light", but considering a lot of .35 cal pellets for sale for airguns start in the 81 gr range I thought that just over 100 grains would be a good place to start with slugs. Since I am unsure about whether the gun will even be able to push a 175+ gr slug anywhere near as fast as it would need to go to be effective I chose 158 grain as my "heavy" endpoint. So I have a 56 grain range that I can play with to find something that works best for me.

As far as the AEA mag, I have not received the gun yet. That is scheduled to arrive Monday.

Greg_E · « **Reply #3 on:** March 19, 2021, 10:16:45 PM »

Thanks, that makes more sense. Being able to adjust the weight would be nice. I'll have to look into this as I get farther down the road.

mackeral5 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 20, 2021, 11:12:02 PM »

Very neat setup. The concept of swaging is very interesting to me. However, the biggest drawback I see in an airgun, is most swaged bullets have long bearing surfaces which equals friction which equals lower velocities.

NSA has a few slugs they sell that are specifically designed to reduce bearing surface such as the .357 142gr, which is a very fast, very accurate slug. I would like to see more swaged slugs where bearing surface is kept to a minimum....

sb327 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 21, 2021, 12:46:14 AM »

I agree. I have just started messing with swaging. I think a bore rider with narrow drive band would be best for air. Along with a rebated tail.

To the OP,
When you say you can crank it down a little and it takes some more lead off, does it have bleed holes in the die?

Thanks,
Dave

nunnya · « **Reply #6 on:** March 21, 2021, 01:26:11 AM »

Please keep us posted on your progress with both the swaging and how well the AEA .357 performs. Been interested in both myself.

bduares · « **Reply #7 on:** March 21, 2021, 01:55:12 AM »

Quote from: mackeral5 on March 20, 2021, 11:12:02 PM

the biggest drawback I see in an airgun, is most swaged bullets have long bearing surfaces which equals friction which equals lower velocities.

More friction can equal a lesser velocity, true. Also air escaping around a looser slug can equal lesser velocities as well. There will always be a trade off between an airtight fit which allows more pressure to push the slug and a looser slug with less contact with the barrel but which allows more air to escape around it rather than push it. People try to slug their barrels to get an exact fit down to the thousandths of an inch when it is nearly impossible to craft a soft lead slug that exact. One way I plan on trying to overcome friction while ensuring an airtight fit is to powder coat the slugs so they are slippery and don't foul the barrel with lead.

Quote from: sb327 on March 21, 2021, 12:46:14 AM

When you say you can crank it down a little and it takes some more lead off, does it have bleed holes in the die?

Indeed it does. Any excess lead comes out a small hole in the die looking like thin wire.

So far I have only seen one man on YouTube who has made any videos of this particular device. They quality of the videos is not great, but the operation and explanation of the process is pretty decent. You can see a close up of the excess lead coming out at about the 7:30 mark in the video below

sb327 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 21, 2021, 02:26:30 AM »

My first setup to swage I use a ‘core’ die to size for weight. Then my form die. I will combine the two in my future ones since my form die is only handling lead without jackets.

Thanks,
Dave

mackeral5 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 21, 2021, 09:41:47 AM »

Quote from: bduares on March 21, 2021, 01:55:12 AM

Quote from: mackeral5 on March 20, 2021, 11:12:02 PM
the biggest drawback I see in an airgun, is most swaged bullets have long bearing surfaces which equals friction which equals lower velocities.

More friction can equal a lesser velocity, true. Also air escaping around a looser slug can equal lesser velocities as well. There will always be a trade off between an airtight fit which allows more pressure to push the slug and a looser slug with less contact with the barrel but which allows more air to escape around it rather than push it. People try to slug their barrels to get an exact fit down to the thousandths of an inch when it is nearly impossible to craft a soft lead slug that exact. One way I plan on trying to overcome friction while ensuring an airtight fit is to powder coat the slugs so they are slippery and don't foul the barrel with lead.

Quote from: sb327 on March 21, 2021, 12:46:14 AM
When you say you can crank it down a little and it takes some more lead off, does it have bleed holes in the die?

Indeed it does. Any excess lead comes out a small hole in the die looking like thin wire.

So far I have only seen one man on YouTube who has made any videos of this particular device. They quality of the videos is not great, but the operation and explanation of the process is pretty decent. You can see a close up of the excess lead coming out at about the 7:30 mark in the video below

I'm not sure how critical the "air tight fit"is. In my limited experience, with slugs too small for a given barrel, accuracy seems to suffer before any significant impact to velocity is observed.

IMO, Coatings may help, but bearing surface is bearing surface.... the "bore rider with narrow drive band" will always be the fastest at a given weight, in our airgun applications.

There are many ways to "skin a cst" so to speak, there's no one right way. I look forward to seeing how things progress with your swaging journey.

bduares · « **Reply #10 on:** March 22, 2021, 03:26:28 PM »

I know my mailman must hate me now. I had placed 2 orders on eBay for lead. One for 10 lbs and one for 20lbs from 2 different sellers. What arrived in one package was 10 small 1lb Lyman molded ingots. Good. What came in the other package was 4 bricks that weighed almost 11 lbs each! So I was expecting a total of 30 lbs and more than 50 lbs showed up

sb327 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 22, 2021, 03:56:44 PM »

Score!

Dave

bduares · « **Reply #12 on:** March 23, 2021, 03:06:54 PM »

Today I tried my hand at casting for the very first time. I already know I didn't heat up the mold as hot as it needed to be but I didn't care. I just wanted to see if I could even melt the lead on a Wal-Mart hotplate (yes I can) and if it would get hot enough to cast slugs (yes it can).

I used a 102 gr. LEE 380 mold and got some fairly decent results in the 103.8 grain range. They were not hard to push through a .375 sizer die by hand and they also swage nice in the CH press.

I fired a few rounds over the chrony and found that I have a 225 fpe air rifle out of the box with the lightest slugs I have made so far. Once I am in the 150+ grain range I hope to (fingers crossed) hit 240-250 fpe.

Here's some of my little soldiers

bduares · « **Reply #13 on:** March 30, 2021, 02:07:21 AM »

I seem to have the casting down now, as well as swaging. Powder coating, however, is a dismal failure for me. Thought I would try it out with some Harbor Freight black to start, since I had picked up both black and white PC. Shook the slugs in the powder coating, used nitrile gloves dipped in powder coating to put the slugs on the baking sheet, and 400F for 20 minutes. Big nope. Not only did they stick to the aluminum foil, even after testing it crinkled as well as flat, the coating was neither complete nor like "glass". Just for grins I also tried popping some of the PC slugs through the .357 sizer. Another big nope. Don't know what went wrong with the whole procedure but it took a hammer to get them through the sizer and I gave up after a few slugs and popped them back in the lead melt to recast.

Meanwhile my Lyman lead dipper arrived a few days ago - the big round ball type that looks like an old sea mine - and I have had great success casting slugs using that, easily casting a hundred in 15 minutes using a 2 cavity mold. With that dipper rejects are almost completely gone. Now my little slug soldier army numbers more than 225 projectiles and that is just from playing around with the kit for a short time each day before work over the past couple of days. The only hassle with my setup is that I am using a hot plate and I had to open it up and bypass the temperature switch and connect the element straight to the wires going to the mains so it would not do any on/off heat cycles. Now when it is plugged in it is on full blast and it gets to the perfect temperature to melt my 5-10# of lead in a cast iron pot. I drop the slugs into a large bowl of water to harden them a bit. Half of them I swage to a semi-wadcutter and half I leave as the cast round nose. By hand I put all through my .357 push through die.

bduares · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2021, 05:28:12 PM »

I received my adjustable .375 core mold today and thought I would share. As Joerg would say "let me show you it's features"

The concept is actually simpler than I thought it would be. The mold itself is a cylinder with a .375 hole drilled through it, a simple sprue plate on one end and a threaded base as the other end. It came with 2 length's of plunger/piston type extractors which fit through a small threaded length of pipe. The piston head end can't pass through the threaded pipe, the thinner pin end of the extractor comes out the other side of the pipe and a spring is slid over it and held in place at the end by a lock ring.

The threaded pipe can be adjusted into the mold threading to raise or lower the top of the piston inside the mold allowing the length of the core being cast to be changed. The 2 extractors have different lengths of piston heads so cores can range from very short to very long depending on which extractor is being used.

The only issue I had was the sprue hole was far too narrow, so I opened it up a bit and now it works great. I plan on added another spring, this time on the threaded pipe as it turns very easily and once I set the length I want to cast I don't want it to turn and make adjustments accidentally.

bduares · « **Reply #15 on:** May 04, 2021, 03:38:55 AM »

Ordered a round nose punch for the Swag-O-Matic today. Found a company that bought out CH and still has some of the CH dies and parts for the machine. Will be interesting to see how the round nose swaged slug compares to the round nose cast ones.

bduares · « **Reply #16 on:** May 08, 2021, 12:57:49 AM »

I got the round nose punch for the swage press today. It's quite interesting. It's round nose but it also has a shoulder all the way around like the semi-wad cutter punch. I also found that I can switch back and forth between the two different types on powder coated slugs without tearing up the powder coating. So that's pretty cool.

Cyknife · « **Reply #17 on:** May 26, 2021, 10:18:37 PM »

Willing to share the info for said company?

bduares · « **Reply #18 on:** May 27, 2021, 01:51:33 AM »

Leave a message with Beth explaining what you are looking for at http://www.ch4d.com/support/contacts

bduares · « **Reply #19 on:** June 23, 2021, 04:41:11 PM »

I have been playing around with my Swag-o-matic and casting slugs for the .357 Challenger, powder coating them, etc and I realized I did not have anything to make hollow point slugs. I had SWC and RN nose punches for the swag press, and RN molds, but that was all, and I did not plan on shooting RN at anything when SWC does so much better at just about everything. So I decided to sacrifice my Swag-o-matic RN punch and make a HP punch out of it.

I bought a Drill/Tap/Deburr Bit Set at Harbor Freight for $12. This supposedly can drill into metal and make threads all in one shot. However the inch+ of hardened steel the nose punch was made of required me to pre-drill a hole with a titanium bit at just under the size of the drill & tap bit I wanted to use. A bit of slow hand drilling and then drill & tap and I had a threaded hole down the middle of the nose punch deep enough to screw in a bolt. I then used a rotary tool to cut off the bolt flush with the nose punch edge and then cleaned up the burrs on the end of the bolt. Now I had a round nose punch with a bolt sticking up the middle of it to punch out the HP part of the slug, making the top of it look like a giant CPHP

I swapped out the SWC on the press and popped the new Frankensteined HP punch and this is what it now puts out:

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Swag-O-Matic .357

Author Topic: Swag-O-Matic .357 (Read 1480 times))