Condor Power?

[rsterne]

OK guys.... I've heard all sorts of claims about the power of the Condor.... Time to 'fess up!.... Post some real numbers, giving barrel length, hammer, settings, pressure and most importantly pellet, in .22 cal and .25 cal please.... Of particular interest to me is the best velocity you have obtained with a stock Condor set up for max power, shooting EunJin pointeds in .22 cal (32 gr.) and .25 cal (43 gr.).... Same info with a modded gun, including what you have done, would be useful as well.... Also your favourite setup (pellet/velocity) for long range work (100+ yd.)....

Bob

[Bandit_46]

Hey Bob,,I just seen your request,,so I'll run some 35.8 Eunjins over the Pro Chrono tomorrow and get back to you on that,(But the last batch at 2800 psi was (Low 996) (High 1008) for 81 fpe).But I will do it again,as I spent $200's buying a New Competitions Pro Chrono with a LED light kit as I thought my BETA Chrony was giving me False reading's.
After spending the money,,I know have 2 chrony's that reads about the same and proved my Beta's readings right on the mark.I too was Surprised!
Proof to follow,lol.

Thanks

Troy

[be4meliz]

Here is a few strings I did with stock CONDOR-using .22 and.25 24" barrel- was playing with valve seat adjustment-taking pressure off valve spring-seemed to work well-Have shot a few 62 gr. Jerry slugs in the Hi 800's.

[be4meliz]

As far as 100 yd. would prefer the 25.4 Kings in the mid 900's-they seem to be pellet of choice for my .25 barrel- There is a guy on TAG that is starting to cast.25 acp bullets thats getting good long range accuracy.With the R&L extreme valve I am getting much higher velocity but that has to be balanced with accuracy as you know( have had 21gr. Kodiaks up to 1200 fps with that setup but unstable and NOISY LOL

[be4meliz]

Have EJ for .22 and .25 -will give you a sample over CHRONY IF RAIN WILL STOP

[rsterne]

HI Be4....

Thanks for that data.... If I read the charts correctly, your peak velocity with 14.3 gr is 1127 (40 FPE) and with 25.4 gr. is 1068 (64 FPE).... Those velocities appear to be mid-string.... what would you estimate the pressure to be at that point?.... What was the refill pressure?....

I look forward to seeing your results with the EJs.... I note that you also like the 25.4 gr. JSBs in the mid 900s for long range....

Bob

[Bandit_46]

Bob, I'm 170 FASL and I ran two groups over the Pro chrono with my LED Light Kit as it's raining here. I used the Eunjin's that weigh 35.7 on my scale, and she actually prefers  them over the barracuda's and is stronger with them also.I have asked Tom,as well as our own Harry & Jeff and they say I'm just fortunate that she likes the Eunjins better.The Barrel is a ''24'' and I have a BEB Shroud. Also the P/W is set at 8.6 and I started at 2800psi and never refilled as she's pretty consistent down to about 2100 psi.I have found that cranking up the P/W doesn't do that much and a couple times it didn't shoot much faster anyway,(Now figure that one out)!

I know what your thinking as I thought the same, and then spent money to prove my Beta chrony wrong,and both as very close,but I Trust the Pro Chrono and it reads a bit lower than the BETA,(But I think the Beta shows faster than it really is).She will shoot them a bit faster depending on the weight at 10.6,(And that I don't understand),but it is what it is.
I'm just happy she works nice, and anymore Power I do NOT need,(As Like Harry say's,Once you get the gun recoiling,you can't shoot from the Bipod as accuracy falls off,and I Trust him 100%) as the accuracy is just wicked!
It must be the fit of the Eunjin's as Barracuda's shoot a little faster,,but with less FPE,(And that's still got me baffled)!


First group is just pellets grabbed out a tin and i bumped up the P/W to 10 with no weighing,(And they do vary).
The second group is 35.7 grain pellets weighed on my Franklin Arsenal Scale and P/W at 8.6.
8.6 seems to be the Sweetspot for consistency in the shot string. Anyway,,here's my 2 cents!

994.0
1015.0
1002.0
995.4
1007
1001.0

AVG: 1002
ES:21.26
SD:7.81

FPE:If Calculated @ 35.8gr  79.83

35.7 grain Pellets

992
996
992
989
992
992

AVG:992
ES:7
SD:2

FPE:78.03

Oh and Btw did I mention? I LOVE this Rifle,lol!!!!

Btw,,these are not boasting numbers,I'm just really Happy this one likes the Eunjins as they carry some wicked Power downrange!

P/S: There is one strange this though,(And I guess it's not that strange to guys like you and Lloyd),that is If I fill to 3000 psi,she drops her shots to the 905 to 913 fps range! I would assume that's because of ''Valve Lock'' as I've been told by a buddy of mine,(Namely Harry)he he.Then it takes her to fall down to about 2800 or so, and then she starts to pick them up and stays there until about 2100-2150 or so PSI.I'm still learning about PCP's and their idiosyncrasies and variances (as I'm an ole Springer man),But the more I shoot the Sumatra and Condor,the more I Love em.I am looking forward to getting my loonies and toonies saved up to buy a lathe, as I really want to make a Breech and hammer to buy another frame and try a .308 or 9mm.  
Thanks

[be4meliz]

Bob- I believe end pressure was around 1800 psi- but will recheck again( along with EJ chrony test) I was just amazed that by backing out of valve seat that I could get that many hi speed shots and maintain a reasonable bell curve. I've followed a bunch of your research and I try to take the same path-trying to get the most efficiency and accuracy at the same time- Just couldn't understand why people were punishing there AF with xtra heavy hammers and springs- so went the other way with shorter, lighter valve springs and ended up getting the easiest solution by backing out the seat(if I had lathe , could have counter sunk seat- but this is easily adjustable) R&L does close to the same with there Extreme by having different length seats(the delrin piece)Randy figured that one out when I accidentally got the wrong setup( he made it more than good) and I had a 1 shot dump@ 3000psi and totally destroyed my TT shroud( was like shooting .338 Mag and barely cradling it! Made me a bit twitchy for awhile.LOL


Beware HPA! and thanks for all the info you have shared with the community.Will get you the info as soon as RAIN Stops. All that info was stock CONDOR evrything and just plying with valve spring and seat adjustment

[only1harry]

Bob, the "sky is the limit" with a Condor depending how big a hammer you upgrade to, and how big a slug you want to use, especially in the .25, and if you want to bore out your valve.

Having owned 3 Condors and having read a ton of material on the TAG for the last 3+yrs, and experimenting with my own, I can give you a pretty accurate power range for a stock .22 and .25 Condor (I own a stock .22 - I restored it back to stock actually) and tell you what my modified ones do.

The power range of a stock .22 Condor with 21-32gr pellets is 55-70fpe.
The power range of a stock .25 Condor with 31-43gr pellets is 69-80fpe.

As an FYI, the valve in the .22 and .25 Condors are identical.  Only the  barrel is different.  Air Force makes only 1 valve for these 2 caliber Condors (.177 is slightly different).


You also have to keep in mind that Condors with the '08+ new style hi-flo valve are more powerful than the "older" Condors with pre-08 valves, or "old-style valves" as we Air Force owners call them.  Having said this, the maximum power of a Condor may not necessarily be how people have it set up to shoot, and may not be an "effective" or desirable setup.  Most people adjust the power (via the Power Wheel mostly..) of their Condor to achieve consistency, accuracy, and reasonable (subsonic) velocities with the gun's favorite pellet.  Usually the objective is to set up a Condor to shoot with the heaviest pellets it is accurate with to keep the velocity down and allow the shroud to do its job.  However, not all Condors or LW barrels are accurate with the really heavy ones, like 43gr Eun Jin's for example.

I have chrony strings somewhere in that mess I call my office, but here is the maximum power of my .22 Condor with 28.4gr Eun Jin's which it is pretty accurate with.  The following #'s are mostly with a 2800-2900psi fill which is usually where the maximum power is achieved with most Condors, unless the valve is polished and bored out or otherwise tuned or modified.

My .22 Condor with '08+ new-style valve and 2 favorite pellets:
28.4gr EunJin
1030fps,  66fpe

21.1gr Kodiak
1085fps,  55.2fpe

My .25 power-tuned Condor w/'08+ new style valve:
(power mods: 95gram hammer, polished valve).
43gr EunJin
970fps,  90fpe  
The EunJin's accuracy is average, so I use the following more accurate pellets:
31gr Kodiak
1,080fps,  80fpe

JSB King 25.4gr
1130fps,  73fpe

My 2nd Condor .25 with slightly heavier hammer and polished OLD style valve (pre-'08):
31gr Kodiak
1015fps, 71fpe

Now these #'s are the maximum power I got over the Chrony at PW 8-9.  I have never tested at PW setting >9 or 9.5 (it goes up to 12) because the shroud just doesn't work well with supersonic velocities, and the gun becomes an "air hog" in most cases.  Also typically the power gain past PW 9-10 are minimal, maybe 1 to 2fpe at the most.

This is about it, without getting too much into it, like tophat adjustments, etc...  Keep in mind that Jerry's slugs 0.251" go up to 88gr (with the 62gr and 72gr being the most popular) achieving typically anywhere form 100 to 120fpe.  I plan on getting some 62's to do some testing, but the #'s I have achieved above should give you a pretty good idea using "regular" mass-produced pellets.

Edit:  I just want to make it clear that I do not shoot Kodiaks @ 1,080 and Kings @ 1,130fps.  I always dial down the power or fill the gun with a lower pressure to achieve lower muzzle velocitiy of around 1,060fps, and work my way down.  That is the velocity where the best shrouds out there are most effective.  Once I go over that magic range of 1,060-1,070, I get a (mini-supersonic) "crack" noise out of the muzzle, which is totally undesirable to me   The accuracy also improves a little with subsonic velocities. 

[rsterne]

If I can summarize those two set of results (and that's always dangerous) I see what I believe to be some similarities.... Both sets of results indicate that if you fill to 3000 psi it takes a while for the velocity to climb, with the "sweet spot" starting at about 2800 psi and continuing down to about 2100 psi.... then dropping again by the time you get to 1800.... The peak velocity seems to be at around 2500 psi.... at least that's how I read it.... Feel free to comment if you think that's an unfair statement....

While I expected the 35.7 gr. EunJins to produce a lot more FPE than the 14.3 gr.... I'm a little surprised that it's double.... but it is what it is.... ant he more data I get the more I'll understand....

Bob

[rsterne]

Great reply, Harry, many thanks.... If I understand you correctly, the practical maximum without turning your Condor into a loud air-hog would be about 66 FPE with 28.4 gr. EunJins and 55 FPE with 21.1 gr. Kodiaks in .22 cal.... and with the barrel change to .25 cal the numbers would be 90 FPE with 43 gr. EunJin Pointed, 80 FPE with 31 gr. Kodiaks, and 73 FPE with 25.4 gr. JSB Kings.... Would you agree?....

I realize that you can get over 100 FPE with the heavier .25 cal slugs.... I'm trying to get a feel for what it typical with easily available pellets.... I'm familiar with PCPs becoming air hogs with very little gain in performance.... It's amazing how much extra air it takes to go supersonic, isn't it?.... 

Bob

[rsterne]

Be4.... Nice scope nose!.... Quite the pic of that shroud.... Glad it wasn't more serious....

Bob

[Bandit_46]

I know everyone's trying to make shrouds nice and light,(but yet effective),and It's been awhile since I left the welding trade.But I'll take the Extender I got from Bill over something as thin as that one.You could have really been hurt Be4,
I'm sure Happy your OK!

[only1harry]

Great reply, Harry, many thanks.... If I understand you correctly, the practical maximum without turning your Condor into a loud air-hog would be about 66 FPE with 28.4 gr. EunJins and 55 FPE with 21.1 gr. Kodiaks in .22 cal.... and with the barrel change to .25 cal the numbers would be 90 FPE with 43 gr. EunJin Pointed, 80 FPE with 31 gr. Kodiaks, and 73 FPE with 25.4 gr. JSB Kings.... Would you agree?....

You are correct with the stock .22 #'s Bob, but to get 90fpe with a .25 Condor or 80fpe with Kodiaks, you would have to power-tune it.  A stock .25 maxes out around 80fpe with the 43g EunJins usually (give or take 1-2fpe), and 70-72fpe with the 31gr Kodiaks. 

The problem is not too many Condors like the heavy pointed EunJins.  Some perform better with the 35.7gr domed EunJins and 31gr Kodiaks.  The JSB King 25.4 and 26gr Predator seem to perform the best in most Condors as far as accuracy goes, with the 31gr Kodiak a close 2nd.  The Kodiaks stay well subsonic between 990-1,020fps with a stock Condor, and the JSB Kings & Preds will be very close to going supersonic at max. power (1,050-1,070fps), so a little bit of throttling back is required to make good use of the shroud, but they are still very accurate at those high velocities.  They get rediculously accurate as soon as they enter the 900's though.  I was shooting matches and 1/8" twigs at 25yds with great success 1 day when I filled to a much lower pressure than usual to get the Kings and Preds in the 900's.
 
Nowadays I only fill to 2300-2400psi and shoot 16-20 Kodiaks first (at least a full Philips pellet holder)  and then switch to another 16-20 JSB Kings or Preds after the power has dropped a little so they are not supersonic.  The gun is only down to 1800-1900 psi after 32-40 shots when I refill.  Condors can be very efficient.  A well configured Condor can get anywhere from 10.5 to 12psi per shot on medium power (not maximum power) depending how well the tophat and power wheel adjustments are set up and how much time you spend on the Chrony.

The Talon/Condor has a very large 490cc large tank, so it really does not seem to use a lot of air to reach supersonic velocities with the light-medum weight pellets.  I can take a lot of supersonic shots with the JSB Kings 25.4gr, and even more with lighter 20.x .25 pellets.  With my .22 I have shot 80 Kodiaks and the tank was only down to 1,700-1800psi from 2800psi.  The POI dropped a little but it was fine for plinking and shooting up stuff

[rsterne]

Excellent data Harry.... Many thanks....

Bob

[Beastinisgr8]

Wow sounds like I may be selling what I have to get a condor!

[Bandit_46]

You won't be Sorry buying a Condor Beastin,,they are one Sweet rifle!

[Beastinisgr8]

Can you recimmend a ldc or something else to keep it quiet?

[morganp]

Can you recimmend a ldc or something else to keep it quiet?

I have a shroud extender from R&L Airguns that works very good and Randy is great to deal with, they are a bit over $110 . My brother has one of Bulls Eye Bills frame extenders on his condor and for $58 shipped I think it was a bargain. I don't know how much one from Tony at Talon Tunes cost but understand his product is extremely quiet.

[Beastinisgr8]

Hmm thanks ill look into.it