Need to tear up my gun and do some maintenance need some advice

[mikeyb]

Since you have other air rifles to shoot and this one can be easily out of service for repair/maintenance, I suggest you disassemble and inspect it BEFORE you start buying all sorts of parts/kits you many not need. We can all guess what the problem is for days. I can usually open up a similar rifle and inspect all the critical parts in less time than it took to read this thread and type this response (I am a slow typer ).

Once you have diagnosed the actual problem and taken a few measurements, you can more accurately order just the parts needed to make your rifle shoot well again.

Good luck and best wishes!

[limbshaker]

Id almost bet that your random low velocity issue is NOT due to the internals of the rifle. Most likely the pellets.

From what I have found, the Crosmans in the tin have a bunch of pellets that are too small mixed in. These won't seal as well, and will produce low velocity.

Opening the gun up and not changing anything but the piston seal probably won't fix your issue. But, it would be a good time to "get the buzz out".

My advice, get some different pellets to try and see what happens. And if you don't want to size a piston seal, I find that the OEM seals work very well, and last a really long time when lubed correctly.

[Bayman]

Since you have other air rifles to shoot and this one can be easily out of service for repair/maintenance, I suggest you disassemble and inspect it BEFORE you start buying all sorts of parts/kits you many not need. We can all guess what the problem is for days. I can usually open up a similar rifle and inspect all the critical parts in less time than it took to read this thread and type this response (I am a slow typer ).

Once you have diagnosed the actual problem and taken a few measurements, you can more accurately order just the parts needed to make your rifle shoot well again.

Good luck and best wishes!

This is excellent advice. You don't know what you need until you open a rifle.

[Bayman]

Id almost bet that your random low velocity issue is NOT due to the internals of the rifle. Most likely the pellets.

From what I have found, the Crosmans in the tin have a bunch of pellets that are too small mixed in. These won't seal as well, and will produce low velocity.

Opening the gun up and not changing anything but the piston seal probably won't fix your issue. But, it would be a good time to "get the buzz out".

My advice, get some different pellets to try and see what happens. And if you don't want to size a piston seal, I find that the OEM seals work very well, and last a really long time when lubed correctly.

Chase, I'll take that bet. As little as I think of Crosman pellets the widest Extreme Spread I've ever chrono'd with them was in the 50 fps range. 200-300 is huge. The offending pellet would fit so loose the relationship between the fit and drastic velocity drop should have been noticed by the shooter. I haven't bought a box of CPLs or a tin of CPHPs since summer of 19. If Crosman pellets are that bad now they're even worse than they were then, which was pretty bad at times. I say at times because they can shoot great to cr@p from any given package.
I will agree that he should try different pellets first to see if this is the case. But honestly mikeyb is right a quick tear down might be quicker if he doesn't have other pellets readily available.

The Vortek piston seals don't need to be sized to be better than the OEM. I've used bunches of both

[Mark 611]

I would agree with the pellets being the issue, very few HW .22cal barrels will shoot Crosman pellets unless u have consistent head sizes that the barrel likes! but some HW .22cal barrels will Crosman Pointed Hunting pellets or the Ultra Mags they seem to be a bit more consistent then the HP's, but not perfect, do to head sizes! I would try the H&N FTT's 5.53mm or the AA Fields 16gn my .22cal 35 loved them!

[byhsu]

JMO, if ur going to have the gun apart, I realize u think the factory spring does not have a bunch of shots on it, but they don't last long, a spring costs about $20 bucks for a good 1, in my experience sometimes no matter what u do to try and keep a factory spring from buzzing it just won't, and it u want to go that route, I would not waist my time on buying a better guide and top hat, I would just use the Ghetto tune method, using plastic from a pop bottle and a Delrin washer infront of the spring at the top of the piston, ur probably going to get the same results as the guide and top hat for the cost of a 50ct washer and a 2 Liter bottle of pop! I have used this method on many rifles until I was ready to spend the money to tune them correctly and it works just as good as the money ur getting ready to waist, Theirs no big trick to doing this Ghetto tune, its easy and costs less then $3 bucks!

Where can I source this Delrin washer you talk about? Thanks.

I've heard of platic bottle or a sheet of a soda can to wrap around the spring.  I'll have to look into that.

[Bayman]

I would agree with the pellets being the issue, very few HW .22cal barrels will shoot Crosman pellets unless u have consistent head sizes that the barrel likes! but some HW .22cal barrels will Crosman Pointed Hunting pellets or the Ultra Mags they seem to be a bit more consistent then the HP's, but not perfect, do to head sizes! I would try the H&N FTT's 5.53mm or the AA Fields 16gn my .22cal 35 loved them!

Mark his rifle is 177.

[Mrblonde40]

Then 8.64 4.52 head.  I've found the FTT to be the most consistent in size that I've measured.  If you do the seal anyway, I like the vortek moly seals, they are tight, but they'll size to the bore.  As far as the stuff you read about the Vortek kits, I'd check the date on what you read, I read the same things and it tended to be from several years ago.  Hard to say though since someone says something and it gets repeated over and over on the internet and next thing you know it's being held out there as the truth instead of opinion.  The kits have been changed (improved) several times in just the last couple years.  Tom is constantly experimenting and trying to improve them.  I'm not trying to convince you to get one, I just remember the bad reviews I read that, when I found the original review, was from 10 years ago and written by a competitor.  Just one of those things that bugs me about the internet.

[Bayman]

Then 8.64 4.52 head.  I've found the FTT to be the most consistent in size that I've measured.  If you do the seal anyway, I like the vortek moly seals, they are tight, but they'll size to the bore.  As far as the stuff you read about the Vortek kits, I'd check the date on what you read, I read the same things and it tended to be from several years ago.  Hard to say though since someone says something and it gets repeated over and over on the internet and next thing you know it's being held out there as the truth instead of opinion.  The kits have been changed (improved) several times in just the last couple years.  Tom is constantly experimenting and trying to improve them.  I'm not trying to convince you to get one, I just remember the bad reviews I read that, when I found the original review, was from 10 years ago and written by a competitor.  Just one of those things that bugs me about the internet.

THANK YOU! Truer words never spoken.

[Mrblonde40]

You're welcome

[limbshaker]

So if a seal "sizes to the bore" what keeps it from just keeping on wearing out or sizing itself too small?

And why do the seals that I fit to the tube stay the same for years and years?

How long do you have to deal with the temp sensitivity POI shift from an overly tight seal before it "sizes itself"? Is it a time thing, or a shot count thing?

Is a Vortek seal oversized enough to fit well in badly oversized tubes, but have enough "self sizing" built in to fit the tightest of tubes as well?

Does it simply compress to size, or actually get worn down?

Maccari and Vortek both use urethane for their seals, and of very similar durometer. Why does Maccari recommend they need sizing, when Vorteks size themselves?

Curious minds...

[limbshaker]

Id almost bet that your random low velocity issue is NOT due to the internals of the rifle. Most likely the pellets.

From what I have found, the Crosmans in the tin have a bunch of pellets that are too small mixed in. These won't seal as well, and will produce low velocity.

Opening the gun up and not changing anything but the piston seal probably won't fix your issue. But, it would be a good time to "get the buzz out".

My advice, get some different pellets to try and see what happens. And if you don't want to size a piston seal, I find that the OEM seals work very well, and last a really long time when lubed correctly.

Chase, I'll take that bet. As little as I think of Crosman pellets the widest Extreme Spread I've ever chrono'd with them was in the 50 fps range. 200-300 is huge. The offending pellet would fit so loose the relationship between the fit and drastic velocity drop should have been noticed by the shooter. I haven't bought a box of CPLs or a tin of CPHPs since summer of 19. If Crosman pellets are that bad now they're even worse than they were then, which was pretty bad at times. I say at times because they can shoot great to cr@p from any given package.
I will agree that he should try different pellets first to see if this is the case. But honestly mikeyb is right a quick tear down might be quicker if he doesn't have other pellets readily available.

The Vortek piston seals don't need to be sized to be better than the OEM. I've used bunches of both

I've had a ton of the boxed CPLs, and found all of them to be very consistent in head size. They shoot very well in literally every .177 I have owned.

Ed Canoles has bought more boxed CPLs than anyone I have ever known, and he seemed to have pretty well documented results with them. They can't be that bad.

The ones in the tin, yeah they aren't worth the time. Never had any that were good.

[Bayman]

Id almost bet that your random low velocity issue is NOT due to the internals of the rifle. Most likely the pellets.

From what I have found, the Crosmans in the tin have a bunch of pellets that are too small mixed in. These won't seal as well, and will produce low velocity.

Opening the gun up and not changing anything but the piston seal probably won't fix your issue. But, it would be a good time to "get the buzz out".

My advice, get some different pellets to try and see what happens. And if you don't want to size a piston seal, I find that the OEM seals work very well, and last a really long time when lubed correctly.

Chase, I'll take that bet. As little as I think of Crosman pellets the widest Extreme Spread I've ever chrono'd with them was in the 50 fps range. 200-300 is huge. The offending pellet would fit so loose the relationship between the fit and drastic velocity drop should have been noticed by the shooter. I haven't bought a box of CPLs or a tin of CPHPs since summer of 19. If Crosman pellets are that bad now they're even worse than they were then, which was pretty bad at times. I say at times because they can shoot great to cr@p from any given package.
I will agree that he should try different pellets first to see if this is the case. But honestly mikeyb is right a quick tear down might be quicker if he doesn't have other pellets readily available.

The Vortek piston seals don't need to be sized to be better than the OEM. I've used bunches of both

I've had a ton of the boxed CPLs, and found all of them to be very consistent in head size. They shoot very well in literally every .177 I have owned.

Ed Canoles has bought more boxed CPLs than anyone I have ever known, and he seemed to have pretty well documented results with them. They can't be that bad.

The ones in the tin, yeah they aren't worth the time. Never had any that were good.

You just like to argue with me. I never said the boxed ones were inconsistent in size. They do vary some from box to box, but what's the point of buying boxes when you don't know which die lot you are buying. I don't use the boxed ones for several reasons. It's not worth trying to change your (or Ed's) mind about them, it's not my lot in life.

We were talking about inconsistencies that would produce 200-300fps extreme spreads. I have chronographed tons of pellets and tons of Crosman pellets. Even doing  them though dual chronograph testing at 30 yards distance to calculate true ballistic coefficients for several pellets through two of my guns. I was pointing out that while my opinion of Crosman pellets is low I've never seen 200 to 300 fps extreme spreads from them. I have had 50 something fps extreme spreads with tinned Crosmans. Boxed CPLs regularly double the normal extreme spreads of my rifles. Usually they're just either side of 10fps. Not that extreme spreads are the be all indicator for accuracy but it is a good indicator of physical and dimensional consistency between pellets. I have had some excellent accuracy from the boxed CPLs even with the doubled extreme spreads.

 Ed has done some great shooting with the CPLs. He also sorts through all of them and separates them by head size and has even resized them at times. I'm sure you already seen the photos of his stacks of separated boxes of CPLs. Ed's a great guy who I've learned a ton from but I don't have the interests or time to sort, separate and resize thousands of pellets. I'm just happy with the consistency and accuracy of regular JSBs. Even if JSBs were slightly less accurate than Crosmans I still wouldn't use Crosmans for several reasons that I won't bother to list because it would fall on deaf ears.

At least we both agree the tinned Crosmans "aren't worth the time". Some people like vanilla some like chocolate but I'll never argue with someone for liking chocolate because I like vanilla. You and Ed can like your Crosman pellets and I can like my JSB. No big deal. Picking arguments with someone because you don't like them or their opinions is counterproductive and draining. When I post stuff here it's attempt to benefit the OP and community. I NEVER post anything I haven't proven or experienced first hand. I'm an open minded individual and I will listen to what people say but if I hear some that's proven not right I'll suggest a different approach. Granted I boned it earlier in the thread and accidentally offended the OP and I apologized and hope he forgives me. But there's never been any malice in my heart towards anyone here. If I sound like a pompous know it all jerk. I apologize. Some of it may come from my confidence in my information, some of it from my efforts to debunk some of longstanding prejudices and myths here, but most of it comes from trying desperately to help people. It just might not come off like that. Especially when what I say isn't popular here. Just because something is popular doesn't make it true or correct. At times trying to present new ideas and information here is like tilting windmills. Again never any malice in my heart. I'm trying to help others with what I know and learn from those who can teach me through their ACTUAL experience. I only wish people didn't jump down my throat everytime I presented an idea that was unpopular here. There's a lot to be learned here by all of us. Having a closed mind and emphatically putting other people's preferences down everytime they present valid tested information does no one any good.

[limbshaker]

Id almost bet that your random low velocity issue is NOT due to the internals of the rifle. Most likely the pellets.

From what I have found, the Crosmans in the tin have a bunch of pellets that are too small mixed in. These won't seal as well, and will produce low velocity.

Opening the gun up and not changing anything but the piston seal probably won't fix your issue. But, it would be a good time to "get the buzz out".

My advice, get some different pellets to try and see what happens. And if you don't want to size a piston seal, I find that the OEM seals work very well, and last a really long time when lubed correctly.

Chase, I'll take that bet. As little as I think of Crosman pellets the widest Extreme Spread I've ever chrono'd with them was in the 50 fps range. 200-300 is huge. The offending pellet would fit so loose the relationship between the fit and drastic velocity drop should have been noticed by the shooter. I haven't bought a box of CPLs or a tin of CPHPs since summer of 19. If Crosman pellets are that bad now they're even worse than they were then, which was pretty bad at times. I say at times because they can shoot great to cr@p from any given package.
I will agree that he should try different pellets first to see if this is the case. But honestly mikeyb is right a quick tear down might be quicker if he doesn't have other pellets readily available.

The Vortek piston seals don't need to be sized to be better than the OEM. I've used bunches of both

I've had a ton of the boxed CPLs, and found all of them to be very consistent in head size. They shoot very well in literally every .177 I have owned.

Ed Canoles has bought more boxed CPLs than anyone I have ever known, and he seemed to have pretty well documented results with them. They can't be that bad.

The ones in the tin, yeah they aren't worth the time. Never had any that were good.

You just like to argue with me. I never said the boxed ones were inconsistent in size. They do vary some from box to box, but what's the point of buying boxes when you don't know which die lot you are buying. I don't use the boxed ones for several reasons. It's not worth trying to change your (or Ed's) mind about them, it's not my lot in life.

We were talking about inconsistencies that would produce 200-300fps extreme spreads. I have chronographed tons of pellets and tons of Crosman pellets. Even doing  them though dual chronograph testing at 30 yards distance to calculate true ballistic coefficients for several pellets through two of my guns. I was pointing out that while my opinion of Crosman pellets is low I've never seen 200 to 300 fps extreme spreads from them. I have had 50 something fps extreme spreads with tinned Crosmans. Boxed CPLs regularly double the normal extreme spreads of my rifles. Usually they're just either side of 10fps. Not that extreme spreads are the be all indicator for accuracy but it is a good indicator of physical and dimensional consistency between pellets. I have had some excellent accuracy from the boxed CPLs even with the doubled extreme spreads.

 Ed has done some great shooting with the CPLs. He also sorts through all of them and separates them by head size and has even resized them at times. I'm sure you already seen the photos of his stacks of separated boxes of CPLs. Ed's a great guy who I've learned a ton from but I don't have the interests or time to sort, separate and resize thousands of pellets. I'm just happy with the consistency and accuracy of regular JSBs. Even if JSBs were slightly less accurate than Crosmans I still wouldn't use Crosmans for several reasons that I won't bother to list because it would fall on deaf ears.

At least we both agree the tinned Crosmans "aren't worth the time". Some people like vanilla some like chocolate but I'll never argue with someone for liking chocolate because I like vanilla. You and Ed can like your Crosman pellets and I can like my JSB. No big deal. Picking arguments with someone because you don't like them or their opinions is counterproductive and draining. When I post stuff here it's attempt to benefit the OP and community. I NEVER post anything I haven't proven or experienced first hand. I'm an open minded individual and I will listen to what people say but if I hear some that's proven not right I'll suggest a different approach. Granted I boned it earlier in the thread and accidentally offended the OP and I apologized and hope he forgives me. But there's never been any malice in my heart towards anyone here. If I sound like a pompous know it all jerk I apologize. Some of it comes from my confidence in my information, some of it from my efforts to debunk some of longstanding prejudices and myths here, but most of it comes from trying to help people. It just might not come off like that. Especially when what I say isn't popular here. Just because something is popular doesn't make it fact. At times trying to present new ideas and information here is like tilting windmills. Again never any malice in my heart. I'm trying to help others with what I know and learn from those who can teach me through their ACTUAL experience. I only wish people didn't jump down my throat everytime I presented an idea that was unpopular here. There's a lot to be learned here by all of us. Having a closed mind and emphatically putting other people's preferences down does no good for anyone.

I'm not trying to argue at all, I may have slightly misinterpreted the post. My mistake.

Most of my guns that shoot the CPLs well will also shoot the JSBs well. Problem is, most of my guns are older 80s era and for whatever reason have looser entry leads for lack of a better term, lol. But you know what I mean. In these guns the CPLs fit better and tighten up my shot-to-shot spreads and make a fuzz better power.

Hey I get it. I post some things too that I have found to be true for me, that are unpopular. There's a lot of age old hoopla floating around in airgun land that's been regurgitated to the point of gospel that's just not the case. I'm with you, it may just not seem like it at times. I'm sorry for that.

[Mark 611]

I usually have good luck from HW .177cal barrels with the Crosman HP's out of the tin, if the pellets fit like they should? then the stringing issue is usually by seals, unless u have a broken spring or a bad scope? also make sure ur barrel block bolt has the right amount of tension on it, if its lose it will cause accuracy issues

[jusanothajoe]

I guess I'm one of the unlucky ones, when I first got back into airguns I could buy the Crosman boxed pellets locally. (even .20)
I read how good they were and have tried them in every gun I have ever bought.
They just never shot great out of any gun I owned, and I really wanted them to.
Reading in another thread on GTA, I see where the 7.9's are discontinued, shame, because so many liked them.

[Mrblonde40]

I've used the tinned CPHP, and they shot pretty good, but I get better accuracy with H&N, RWS, or AA.  I did notice that the CPHP, some were very tight in the lead e, some very loose, and everything in between.  Never tried the boxed ones, but I'm getting 12 shot groups under 1/2" at 20 yards with 3 different H&N pellets so I don't feel the need to change. 

[byhsu]

I usually have good luck from HW .177cal barrels with the Crosman HP's out of the tin, if the pellets fit like they should? then the stringing issue is usually by seals, unless u have a broken spring or a bad scope? also make sure ur barrel block bolt has the right amount of tension on it, if its lose it will cause accuracy issues

I suspect a broken seal too, the CPHP shoot well in my HW30s and HW50s.  I just put a new scope.  I'll have to open her up when i get some free time.

as for the Piston Sleeve, I found some drink cans made out of steel, i heard Steel lasts longer than the PTFE sheet or the plastic bottles, so I will be using that.  Just need to find an article with pictures showing me how to make one.  I am also thinking to put a steel washer on the other end of the spring, so that the spring can rotate freely.  Is that a good idea?

Thank You

[Mark 611]

Theirs plenty of videos on UTUBE to show how to make a sleeve for the piston, I personally would use plastic for the sleeve, a thin metal washer is ok on the top of the spring, metal can cause vibration or twang and wear, u may not want, plastic is more forgiving and will dampen vibration JMO

[tjk]

To add to Marks “ghetto” tune, you can also place electrical shrink tubing on the rear guide too. Just clean the guide thoroughly before installing and shrinking the tubing. Give the shrink wrapped spring guide a light coat of clear tar and carefully instal the spring. May require a twisting motion but go slow so the spring  end doesn’t  tear into the shrink wrap. I wouldnt consider this a long term solution, but it will get you by (anti spring buzz) until you decide to invest in a properly fitted kit. Hths.