What would you do?

[JimD]

I bought a 25 caliber Avenger about a month ago.  I like the gun and it shoots well but it looses air.  Something on the order of 100 psi per day.  Not terrible.  But my first PCP, a Prod, doesn't loose air at all that I can tell.  I am debating sending it back under warranty but a bit worried I may not get a gun any better than I have back from that process.  Mine degasses fine and that is reportedly an issue with some.  My hammer spring screw is smooth and that is also apparently an issue with some Avengers.  My regulator is stable and some people report creeping pressure with an Avenger. This rate of loss I see as more of an annoyance.  It would not prevent me from going hunting with it.  I wouldn't loose air equivalent to more than one shot in a days hunting.  All it means for my normal target practice and plinking is a little more frequent pumping it back up.

Advice?  Am I being too picking in expecting it to loose no air?  Is this the sort of thing that will get worse with time?  I am thinking that is a maybe.  It would not be terrible to me if a year from now I had to buy some parts and repair it. 

[Chris USA]

I would pull the action and check the fill port and gauge ports with some soapy water first. If leaking, you found it and can proceed from there (fix or return).

[avator]

I get it, I really do... many folks want to hold these folks to sending out the quality that you paid for.
However, orings are considered perishables and will eventually need replaced anyways.
Sooner than later may not be such a bad idea.
Admittedly you already like everything else about the gun... why risk getting a booger for a replacement?
Then there is the shipper to worry about.. I personally don't enjoy standing at the window waiting for a delivery.

[Pelletjunkie]

Orings warranty repairs to me would be like taking my two year old car in for a new windshield wiper under warranty. If you are going to be a PCP guy, you will have to work on them. The only things that could bite you should you decide to dive in is one, if you’re a bit of a hamfist or two, if it’s the poppet. Some failures we need to hold the manufacturers accountable. Orings? We have to have some leeway there. Diagnose it first. Then go from there. 100psi a day might not be easy to find.

[KevinJBrown]

Was it losing pressure from the start? Or did it develop this leak? In either case, unless you know it is an O-ring, why take basically a new gun apart, unless you want to, and ignore the fact that you have a warranty (which my guess is you're voiding by taking it apart to the level you're going to need to do to find the leak). It might be caused by a scratch in the metal - are you willing to polish/machine the sealing surface? It might be caused by an out of tolerance surface causing the leak - do you have the expertise and the tools to measure this? Do you know what the tolerances should be? Maybe it is caused by something as simple as an O-ring that was damaged in assembly or was a manufacturing failure and can be fixed by replacement, but that is really best case.

Yes O-rings are perishable, but if they wear out every month, there should have been a different type of seal used IMHO. More likely if there is a leak after only a month, there was an assembly or some other problem, not a worn out O-ring.

I'd call the vendor, and unless they suggested me trouble-shooting this and were willing to share their trouble-shooting procedures for this with me, I'd ask for a return authorization and send it back.

[tracker1955]

If it were me I'd first locate the leak, then decide if I wanted to fix it myself or return it. I just had to repair a slow leak on my regulator. As you said, I could still shoot it, it was just an annoyance because it kept losing air. It wasn't hard to repair and I know it would only have gotten worse over time if I hadn't.

[JimD]

Thanks guys.  I think it has leaked from day one.  I got it late one day, pumped it up to 3000 with my old Benjamin pump and was happy the next day when it was still about 3000.  But lately I've noticed if it sets for a couple days, there is a definite decrease in pressure.  I don't think it's changing.

I tried soapy water on the fill port and could not see any bubbles.  I've had the stock off once already, I wanted to put on a slip on cover to raise the cheek rest.  So I could do that again and try more soapy water.  I've done that before when I was putting in a propane line but that is a whole lot less pressure.  But same idea.  I agree that the leak is slow enough it may be difficult.  But I won't really know unless I try.

If the manufacturer wanted to "void the warranty" because I took something apart they could already try that.  It is not legal (legally they are liable unless you cause the damage.  taking the stock off didn't and couldn't cause the air to leak) but suing over a $300 gun isn't practical.  I doubt they would do that unless I start taking the insides apart.  I think I'll pull the front part of the stock again and try a little more soapy water.  More data wouldn't hurt.

My degree is mechanical engineering and I'm fairly handy.  I don't have a milling machine but I have a lot of tools.  I can certainly change an O-ring and I can normally figure out how to get things apart without breaking them.  I drilled out the transfer port of my P-rod and moved the cocking handle to the left and it works great.  I agree with the thought that I'll probably end up doing things on this gun at some point anyway.  I am still not thrilled with the trigger, for instance, and will probably polish the contact surfaces.  But I've been waiting until I decide about sending it back. 

Unless something surprising develops when I put on soapy water I think I will just keep it.  If I can take something apart and put some heavy duty teflon tape on the threaded connection and reassemble or change an O ring or something I will.  If I can't find the leak, I'll probably just live with it.

Still open to your thoughts.  Do all your pcps seal up better than this?  I only have the two so I don't know how typical a slow leak like this is. 

[mrbulk]

Thanks guys.  I think it has leaked from day one.  I got it late one day, pumped it up to 3000 with my old Benjamin pump and was happy the next day when it was still about 3000.  But lately I've noticed if it sets for a couple days, there is a definite decrease in pressure.  I don't think it's changing.

I tried soapy water on the fill port and could not see any bubbles.  I've had the stock off once already, I wanted to put on a slip on cover to raise the cheek rest.  So I could do that again and try more soapy water.  I've done that before when I was putting in a propane line but that is a whole lot less pressure.  But same idea.  I agree that the leak is slow enough it may be difficult.  But I won't really know unless I try.

If the manufacturer wanted to "void the warranty" because I took something apart they could already try that.  It is not legal (legally they are liable unless you cause the damage.  taking the stock off didn't and couldn't cause the air to leak) but suing over a $300 gun isn't practical.  I doubt they would do that unless I start taking the insides apart.  I think I'll pull the front part of the stock again and try a little more soapy water.  More data wouldn't hurt.

My degree is mechanical engineering and I'm fairly handy.  I don't have a milling machine but I have a lot of tools.  I can certainly change an O-ring and I can normally figure out how to get things apart without breaking them.  I drilled out the transfer port of my P-rod and moved the cocking handle to the left and it works great.  I agree with the thought that I'll probably end up doing things on this gun at some point anyway.  I am still not thrilled with the trigger, for instance, and will probably polish the contact surfaces.  But I've been waiting until I decide about sending it back. 

Unless something surprising develops when I put on soapy water I think I will just keep it.  If I can take something apart and put some heavy duty teflon tape on the threaded connection and reassemble or change an O ring or something I will.  If I can't find the leak, I'll probably just live with it.

Still open to your thoughts.  Do all your pcps seal up better than this?  I only have the two so I don't know how typical a slow leak like this is.

I think my main thing is the reluctance to return yours since it shoots so well, has a good hammer spring adjuster, degasses well, etc.

These Avengers as a whole are Known for their ease of use, adjustability and accuracy (I have one in .22). I believe many hundreds, if not thousands, of Avengers have been sold already and are being used regularly.

As we all well know, the ones we hear about on forums are usually the exceptions. Not just in airguns but nearly every other product that has forums about them.

If you feel you should probably keep yours because you "got a good one", please believe me when I say the chances of getting an equally good Avenger in exchange - plus no leaks - is pretty good indeed.

  JMHO!

[Elbowgrease]

Heh. I bought an EvoL HPS about 3 or 4 weeks back. they aired it up at AoA and it was fine. Got home, shot it, aired it back up and it was leaking at the pressure gauge. Lucky for me I was no more then a few short miles away from AoA. They tore it down and went through the whole thing. No issues since. It happens.   

[amb5500c]

Filling the gun causes friction, ie, heat. Which causes air to expand and give a somewhat higher pressure reading. Is it possible that after a cooling off period, you are reading a lower pressure and the gun may not be leaking at all? Just a thought.
Richard

[Chris USA]

Final thought. If you do send it back,... make sure you specify that you get the (same) one back,... since you are happy with all other aspects of it.

[KnifeMaker]

Don't forget to use the soapy water on the gage location as well. If you have one, put a balloon over the end of the muzzle. If it is the poppet it will eventually start to fill.


Maker sure to wipe all of the soapy residue off, as it can damage the finish.


Knife

[JimD]

I took the action out of the stock and applied soapy water all over it a few minutes ago.  I found no areas of leaking.  It has a plastic cover over a lot of the mechanism, however, so I cannot apply directly to the gage attachment area.  I need to rewatch a youtube where a guy got it off.  I've wiped the solution off now and put to back in the stock.  May repeat again once I understand how to get the cover off the mechanism.

I agree that pressure comes down with temperature but I've now watched it over several days without shooting or filling it and there was a gradual decrease in pressure.  It was in my great room the whole time so temperature was pretty constant.

One good thing that came from the disassembly is the trigger is better.  I thought the sear screw was all the way in but it was not.  So I turned it a little more and it still creeps a tiny bit but less and it is lighter.  Weight is now fine and while I'd love to get all the creep out I think I will quit messing with it.  I don't want it to slam fire. 

Thanks again for all your thoughts and experiences.   

[FuzzyGrub]

When it gets below the reg set-point, do both gauges continue to drop, or just the main air tube? 

[JimD]

I've rarely let it go below the ~1500 psi regulator setting and if it did, I aired it back up before seeing if it continued to drop.

I monitored pressure daily without shooting the gun for almost a week now and it was loosing 150-200 psi a day.  I decided that is too much to just live with.  So I called Air Venturi and got a warranty number and sent it back to them for warranty repair.  One thing they mentioned is to dry fire it several times before putting it away.  The lady thought that might settle it to where it wouldn't leak as bad.  I didn't try that, it would waste the air I am trying not to have to pump back in the gun and I want them to at least try to fix it.  The lady I spoke with was very nice and thought it would only be a couple weeks for the repair.  I'll post again when I know the results of this. 

It cost more than 10% of the price of the gun to send it back for repair.  I was hoping for a bit less but if it comes back without a leak all will be well.

[JimD]

John,

I am not 100% sure but I think both gauges continue to go down.  When I got it, the tank gauge, at least, showed about 1900 psi.  That worried me a little but I degassed it and set the regulator to minimum and filled it back up (about 250 pump strokes required).  I am not as sure about the regulator but I think it also read around 1900.  I am pretty sure I looked at it and it was low.  But the other reports I've seen on the Avenger say it comes set at 2900 for the factory.  I think if it read 2900 I would remember it.

What would it mean if they both went down versus if they did not?  If the regulator gauge stayed up the leak would be in a point before the regulator?

Hopefully Air Venturi finds and fixes it.

Jim

[FuzzyGrub]

If your plenum gauge stayed higher than the tank gauge, it means the leak is most likely upstream of the regulator.  If both drop, probably the reg or down stream.   

[Dairyboy]

Heh. I bought an EvoL HPS about 3 or 4 weeks back. they aired it up at AoA and it was fine. Got home, shot it, aired it back up and it was leaking at the pressure gauge. Lucky for me I was no more then a few short miles away from AoA. They tore it down and went through the whole thing. No issues since. It happens.

Mine ended up developing a leak at the gauge after first use here also. But it was in sub 20* weather so I think the oring shrunk. Easy fix but like mentioned goes to show an oring can cause leaks on even the high end guns.

[JimD]

Federal Express says they will deliver my repaired gun tomorrow.  First thing will be to see if it holds air.  It wasn't a couple weeks, a little over a month, but if it is indeed repaired I will be happy.

[ranchibi]

Jim, I sure hope it holds air and shoots like it was shooting!