Kral springers - yea or nay?

[Kragman1]

Looking for a practical & powerful .22 or .25, meaning high 20's for fpe.  Not too worried about cocking effort so long as its not ridiculous.  I do t want to spend a lot of money but I don't want to buy junk.  The best choice would be a medium weight, dependable, accurate gas spring rifle with a good trigger and good open sights.

I like the idea of the Hatsan 130, but I only see them for sale in .30 cal (no interest).
I know it will be heavy, but it will also meet my other requirements.

The Kral N-07 seems to be in the mid-20's but is lightweight even with a walnut stock.
Power will be in the mid-20's according to net crony testing.  No idea about the rest of my list.

So if anyone can speak to Kral in general, or any models in particular, please let me know.

Thanks!

[Toxylon]

A couple of years ago, a local airgun dealer had -50 % sale on Kral springers, so  I sprung for a N-07 .25 cal in walnut.

Opening the package and going over the gun, I felt instant buyer's remorse. The Kral was very crudely made, with machining marks in several places, a breech seal that looked like someone had melted it in place, a cocking action that felt like dragging a bunch of scrap metal in a burlap sack over concrete, and a terrible, gritty, mushy trigger. I never tested it enough to see if my gun also had sights that cannot be adjusted to zero in at 20 yards, like someone, maybe even here, told.

I returned the Kral pronto, and learned very few people have anything good to say about them. Small wonder they were on massive sale, and close to disappeared soon after.

[lefteyeshot]

Hatsan 100x Torpedo, Hatsan 155, Hatsan Proxima. I had a 100x stell springer in .117. My 155 is a .177 steel springer. My Proxima is .177 gas ram. They got a lot of bad press. Some people didn't understand how they work. Love my Dominator 200s carbine .177 springer if you can find one. If the umarex had a wood stock I would have already bought one.

HW97 would be a good choice. I'd like to have one.

[Mossonarock]

The used market may be your best bet.
You could post a WTB in the classifieds here on GTA or other airgun sites.
There's often good pickings on Gunbroker. That's where I found my LGV.

If you want power and accuracy, which often doesn't mix well with springers d/t recoil, a Webley Patriot/Beeman Kodiak is a safe choice.
However, be prepared to spend at least $400 for an English made one.
Gas rams were available on the aftermarket for Patriots/Kodiaks.
Otherwise for a cheaper price, you are looking at a Turkish/Hatsan made one which is really just a 125/135 with the Webley name on it.
I can't remember if the Turkish made Webleys had gas rams. Being made by Hatsan, its very possible.

A Hatsan 95 may not be as powerful as you are hoping to get but they are a good balance between power and accuracy.

Also, keep in mind sometimes the pellet you are using has extreme effects on poi. I have several guns that I need to bend the barrel if I want to use different pellets with just to get the poi within the range of adjustability of the sights. People tend to not know this is just a thing you gotta know and do with springers. Its not necessarily an indication that the gun's barrel is bad or the sights are bad. That's been a hard lesson for me to learn. I did not want to have to bend the barrels on my vintage guns but I had no choice.

[lefteyeshot]

Hatsan USA has 100x .25 gas ram for $169.

[Kragman1]

Thank you very much guys!

So, I no longer have interest in a Kral....
Special thanks to Ilimako!

I do still have interest in a Hatsan 130 if I can locate one in .22
0r a 125/135 with a synthetic TH stock (.22)
I would consider a .25 but basically my goal is to have a rifle to shoot JSB 18.13s somewhere around 850 fps.  If that ever got to 900, thats fine too.
The rifle has to suit me (I don't like the shape of the standard 135 stock, but the TH looks like it would be fine) and hopefully not too heavy.  9 lbs or so should be OK.

I will be looking for a 125 TH or a 130 in .22.
This isn't a crazy mission or anything, but I really like the idea of a packable springer that has near PCP power. 
And shooting the big piston guns into good groups can be as much fun as shooting the small piston guns into great groups.  To me its just a different kind of challenge. :-)

[Mossonarock]

I also like the thumbhole design of the 130 and its why I chose the 130 over the 135. but I did eventually get a .25 cal 135 as a refurb for cheap from HatsanUSA. Even as a refurb it still didn't work upon arrival. It had multiple problems with the trigger but the fixes were all super easy after some careful study of the problems.

I also like the thumbhole design of the Hatsan Edge. its a respectably powerful gun with good accuracy but it doesn't have the quattro trigger. It is a 2stage trigger though with a top seer and middle seer.

Imo, if you're going for a springer with >20fpe, go for .25 cal. Just go for it and have fun watching those down range ballistics!

[Kragman1]

Thanks mossonarock

I have an Edge (Vortex) in .25 and I do enjoy it despite the ridiculous hook shaped trigger blade.  I dont know what speed it launches pellets at but it shoots pretty hard and flat, at least out to 30 yards or so.  Net reviews have them around 625 fps or more with 20 grain pellets.  Sounds fair to me.
I'll say this - simply flattening the blade profile would do wonders to help these rifles.  If I can ever get my hands on a spare I'll give it a go.  I know that others have done it and are happy with the results.  The TH stock fits me well, to my initial surprise.

I also have a 95 (Vortex also) in .22 and I believe that they share power plants.  The .22 is an 800/14.3 gun, which puts it around 20 fpe, making it nearly a "magnum" springer, at least to me.  Shoots well across my basement at least, and is a lot if airgun for the money.

So I'm willing to give a larger Hatsan a try.
But I've heard plenty of knocks on them too, so I'm still looking for options.
One may be my RWS 350 NTEC.  But HAM & Straight Shooters both show it as a 21 or 22 fpe rifle, which makes it the equal of an Edge or 95 (power-wise! It is clearly made to a different standard of quality) and I really don't want to bang it around the woods.

Then again, one of my best friends is famous for reminding us that theres no shame in wearing a little blue off your guns....  :-)

[SteveP-52]

10 pages of Google says Europe only and that's if you can find a place in Europe that will even ship here.

Email Hatsan and see if they'll consider swapping the barrel from a 135 .22 to a 130s maybe. If memory serves, the 130 and 135 are the same rifle but the 130 designation is for the synthetic stock. Least they can do is say no. You might also get lucky and they'll say they could possibly order one.

I did find this beast at Krale. Hatsan 135 Sniper Vortex QE and does come in .22. Not a thumbhole but a more pronounced hand grip than the 135 Walnut stock:

https://www.krale.shop/en/hatsan-135-sniper-vortex-qe/

Edge and 95 share the same piston but not the same configuration of it since the trigger pack on the 95 actually goes up inside the receiver so the end cap, added piece on the end of the gas ram and a bit longer receiver allow for that. The Edge ram doesn't need either since it just presses against the end cap. Both use the same piston and seal. Power wise they're the same and run 18-20 fps.
There's also the not much mentioned Hatsan AirTact which is pretty much an Edge with new features. Shrouded barrel, actual 2 stage adjustable trigger, synthetic thumbhole stock. I have one in .25 that's about a 20fpe rifle.

[Mossonarock]

The trigger group on an Edge is easy to remove if you wanted to work on it.
Easy meaning you don't have to pull out the end plug.
I can't remember all the details but the one that elluded me was to disconnect the bear trap mechanism.
The trigger group slides backward and then can be lifted out. When reinstalling the trigger group, the trick then becomes getting the top seer in the correct position while sliding the trigger group forward. Its a lot easier to show than to explain.

With the quattro triggers, you have to remove the pins that hold the end plug in place, which requires using a spring compressor.

Good to know that you have an edge and 95. Now I see why you are interested in seeing what the more powerful guns are about.

[Kragman1]

I tried to get chrony numbers on my NTEC version RWS 350 today, but I was shooting indors and didn't get any shots to register.

However, I found surprising (to me) chrony numbers from Kenny Kormendy that put mid-weight pellets in the 25-27 fpe range, with Gamo 15.43's sitting nicely at 885 fps and roughly hitting 27 fpe. 

If my rifle ends up shooting JSB 15.9's around 850, and 18.13's around 775 I won't be in a hurry to round up a Hatsan 130 or 125 in .22

Looks like I need to find some daylight shooting time soon....

[Mossonarock]

I finally gave in and bought those infrared led lights for my chrony.
Mine used to work with an incandescent bulb over but then later on it just wouldn't. who knows why.
Having a working chrony is indispensible. So it really is worth doing whatever it takes to get it to work well.
Now all I have to worry about is actually getting the shots to go over the registers. That's hard enough!

[Kragman1]

I was going to buy some very bright LED ribbon strips and stick them to the inside of the two diffusers......

Do I actually need infrared?  I had thought that incandescent and LED were both OK.

Thanks again!

[lefteyeshot]

I use mine outside when the sun is shining. Also I use the rods to make sure I get the pellets across the eyes. But it is warmer down here.

[Kragman1]

My problem is that I live in a tight neighborhood and really shouldn't shoot in the backyard, so I just don't.  Maybe someday I'll be living somewhere with the option.

[Toxylon]

I also just chrono my guns (and bows) when the sun shines, outdoors. Haven't yet invested in an indoor lighting set. But I have to drive a bit to shoot more than sparse, single shots, anyway, and there I can also chrono away with abandon.

[Toxylon]

Now all I have to worry about is actually getting the shots to go over the registers. That's hard enough!

Tell me about it! I've learned that with springers & offhand, I need to shoot through the chrono with impeccable artillery technique and target-like concentration to not have Errors displaying all the time. Even more so with lightweight pellets - not because of the speed, but due to the lightweights' more aggressive effect on recoil.