A Question About Co2 ?

[wll2506]

deleted

Hey Rich, You probably deleted what I was already thinking!   dave

Did I do Something wrong ? I know it is not a hunting forum and did not mean it to be I was just stating what I did  while talking about the power I was getting from the new tank?

wll

[crazyhorse1]

No nothing wrong. I posted about the "D9" in error and did not want to hi jack your thread...so I deleted my post and moved it.
Don't have a clue about that other post

[wll2506]

I'm out and loaded up at my spot, it's 6:56am and the wind is already kicking up. My tank is at 74 degrees and my first shot was 643fps with 18.13gr JSB Jumbo Heavies ..... that is a lot of speed, all my other shots later when the tank cooled a bit averaged around the 580fps area ..... the tank was getting colder as I went on to the point of 62 degrees at a few points as it said on the bottle tape. Man alive that temp difference sure makes a difference in velocity ----- as said by many, many times before.

That velocity with Jumbo Heavies is very, very good and gives me an energy level of ~ 13.5 fpe around the 580 fps mark. I'm sure when the weather warms up velocity will be even greater .... I'm shooting in not good Co2 weather for sure, although I'm in a car, the widow is open and it is very cold inside.

It it quite apparent the huge difference in temperature from the very first shot taken from a 76 degree tank from my house to the others where the tank was in the car was the reason for the velocity discrepancies.

Looking forward to a stable spring weather at least in the mid 70's ...

As the weather gets hotter I'll need some sort of way to cool the tank down to keep it in the 80's when the weather is in the 90's+? ------ Any thoughts ?

Below is a shot of my shot sting this am, I deleted the first shot and a couple where the tank was reading 62 degrees. No velocity went below 556fps which is when the tank was reading 62 degrees most shots were when the tank was reading 68-72 degrees as best as I could tell on the temp tape on the bottle would read.



Until next time.

wll

[crazyhorse1]

When shooting my 850 in very hot temps (95-103 F) I once lost power due to valve lock. The remedy was a stronger hammer spring. It worked great and I never had the issue again. Think I put a Walther Dominator spring  in.

[wll2506]

Thanks for the idea  I'll make a mental note of that.

will

[wll2506]

It does look like my 20lb Co2 tank does arrive today, I have a fill station just up the road and I will take it there when I get it. There is a gentleman on another forum that has a used 35lb Co2 tank that I may also buy, we will see on that. If I had both I REALLY would be set ;-)

My Donny FL Tatsu also comes in today, perfect for my TalonP that comes in Thursday;-  ) That TalonP is HPA for sure and should be a real powerhouse as it has a larger than factory tank, factory valve. I plan on taming it down and shooting JSB 33.9gr Exact King Heavies at about 725 fps, giving me about 40fpe in a small package and ~30fpe at 50 yards and almost 28fpe at 65 yards. Enough for a small desert carry gun for me ;- )   More on this later in another post !


wll

[wll2506]

It's been my experience over the past 30 years owning (2) 20 lb eductor (Siphon) tanks and (4) 20 oz. bottles that a good formula would be approximately 2/3 of the tank is viable...that is the percentage of gas over liquid before a drop off in efficiency. In other words, a 20 lb. tank is good for about 10 to 12 fills on a 20 oz bottle. I keep strict records of how many fills I can get out of a 20 pound tank. One more thing....I freeze the 20 oz bottles down to 7 degrees F. before filling. This will give me about 21 oz of Co2 and I fill guns until I get down to 20 Oz's. for safe storage. Temperature with Co2 being a big variable. dave

Dave S

I will take your words to heart as I get my 20lb Co2 tank today ... and I will put my 20oz tank in my freezer before I fill up. I will also keep a count of my tank weight as I do believe your are correct in your statement that about 2/3rds of the tank would be viable for a full velocity and consistency shot amount from a Co2 fill.

Thanks Dave S

wll

[Ribbonstone]

Just some gentle reminder.

Went out to the shed...dug out an old 10 pound donor tank (my back up)and three old 20oz. paintball tanks.   They all have 20076-2008 born on dates,so are way out of hydro-testing.

First thing to do is get the empty weightof your new 20 pound tank....I'd write it boldy on the tank.  YEAH...they know what the tank is,but letting them know that you're going to check/know if it's a short-fill. Didn't see how that little bit of psycologic reminder was a bad thing.

Not one to complain about a little short..or occasionaly a little long....they got the 10 pound tank to within a pound,didn't complain. Pretty much the same 10% complaint limit about the 20 pound tank.

Bottom of the old 20oz. paintball tanks also have the empty weight written on them.Pretty much there to remind me of what the "full"weight would be. 

SURPRISE?..they aren't all the same weight (like 2.7oz. difference).  Different brands,different valves,different tank makers (which isn't the same as the tank name brands...aren't that many tank makers).

As a home bulk-filler, it's the big tank's Hydro date that matters.....can ignor the Hydro rules on painball tanks you fill at home.  Whatever risk is in that is yours alone.

(Just to metion...also dug out an old Tippman 7oz. tank....which does meet the 2X2 rule....from 1991 nqad several 3.5oz. "mini tanks" that aslo meet the 2X2 rule) Took care of the seals/pin valve,have no problem using all of them myself.

But the typical  "Dick's)"or "Academy Sports" clerk is going to read the hydro date and refuse to fill anything older than XXX born on date.

Maybe you can win a legal challenge....maybe not,as I do think they have a right to set their own rules when they err on the side of safety.

Worth noting...modern 9oz. tanks are actually a tiny bit over 2"...over is over...so they do have that leg to stand on if they invoke the 2X2 rule...and from an employee safety aspect,one that's not been inspected does have an risk for the person doing the filling.

FILLING:

Co2 still flows by pressure from one tank to another....but we control the pressure by tempeture.

Warm donor tank...cold recieving tank...get the most flow.

But the smaller (20oz.) recieving tank warms up (by compression of gas) and the doneor tank (20 pound tank) cools down (by expansion).

Once the big tank gets to about 1/2 it'sfill weight,it also gets more sensitive to temperture change.

WORST case,with a 20 pound  tank 1/2 filled, and trying to get a 20oz. into a 20oz. paintball tank....might only get 11-13oz. into a 20oz. tank on the first try with a patly filled 20 pound tank.

Do it twice?

Pop the partly filled 20oz. paintball tank back into the freezer...set the 1/2 filled 20 pound tank where it will get warm...and try again.   Might get  18oz. into that 20oz. tank...never really felt the need to go for that last 10%.

Go too far,and can get 22 oz. into a 20oz. tank...which kind of freaks a co2 guy out,so we either bleed it off,shoot it quickly,or fill a bulk fill some co2 airgun from the "over filled" paintball tank real fast.

REVERSE this temperture depenance (hot 20oz. tank and a cold 20 pound tank) and you'll actually not so good out some of the  co2 from the 20oz. tank and put it back in the 20 lb. tank.  That's a pretty conviencing demonstartion that it's the temp-pressure difference that makes co2 flow from one to the other tank....it's not by weight.

[wll2506]

Just some gentle reminder.
Went out to the shed...dug out an old 10 pound donor tank (my back up)and three old 20oz. paintball tanks.   They all have 20076-2008 born on dates,so are way out of hydro-testing.
First thing to do is get the empty weightof your new 20 pound tank....I'd write it boldy on the tank.  YEAH...they know what the tank is,but letting them know that you're going to check/know if it's a short-fill. Didn't see how that little bit of psycologic reminder was a bad thing.
Not one to complain about a little short..or occasionaly a little long....they got the 10 pound tank to within a pound,didn't complain. Pretty much the same 10% complaint limit about the 20 pound tank.
Bottom of the old 20oz. paintball tanks also have the empty weight written on them.Pretty much there to remind me of what the "full"weight would be. 
SURPRISE?..they aren't all the same weight (like 2.7oz. difference).  Different brands,different valves,different tank makers (which isn't the same as the tank name brands...aren't that many tank makers).
As a home bulk-filler, it's the big tank's Hydro date that matters.....can ignor the Hydro rules on painball tanks you fill at home.  Whatever risk is in that is yours alone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Ribbonstone, Ya, got my freezer all ready as I just got the tank about 10 minutes ago, called the filling station and they have plenty of Co2, takes just a few minutes to fill he said. ... So by this time tomorrow I'll be good for a long time ;- )


wll

[Ribbonstone]

A bit of a "nature boy"...would move the big tank and the little tank back and forth in summer and winter....one stored where it was warm,one where it was cool(basically inside or outside) and just live with what I got in one fill even if it wasn't weight-full.

The co2 wasn't going anywhere...really didn'tcare if I got 15 oz. in a 20 oz. tank...or 18 oz...or 20 oz...id care if I got 22 oz. in a 20oz tank....but it was still there to be used, not "lost".


Being introspective...have to wonder how this deep-south boy got so "let it be what it be" kind of attitude, rather than the California co2 shooter.

[wll2506]

Got my 20lb tank yesterday and filled it up, attached my fittings today and although I have a good hand held digital scale that I have seen others use on YouTube for Co2 filling, I bought a larger stand alone kitchen one that can measure in just ounces. When I get that I will stick my 20oz tank in the freezer and fill it to about 17+ oz  (to be on the safe side)..

Below is a pic of the fitting and the tank in its cardboard shipping box.



wll

[wll2506]

My (Used) Red Talon SS arrived yesterday. I took off the tank and put on the Co2 bottle and adapter I was using on the black Talon. I put on a cheap Optimus 3x9 scope (I will keep it on 6) that I had lying around ---- that will be fine for the Co2 duties this gun will do. The only thing I'm waiting on now is the 18" barrel that should be in today hopefully. :- )

I will set her up for the ~ 575-585 fps with 18.13gr JSB Jumbo heavies (same as the Black Talon) --- giving me over 13 fpe at the muzzle and a shade over 10fpe at 35 yards -----enough for pest birds at these ranges and when using CPHP's I'm in the 625fps area and I can pic off pine cones, rocks, ? all day long.

Pic of gun below without 18" barrel attached :



wll

[wll2506]

My (Used) Red Talon SS arrived yesterday. I took off the tank and put on the Co2 bottle and adapter I was using on the black Talon. I put on a cheap Optimus 3x9 scope (I will keep it on 6) that I had lying around ---- that will be fine for the Co2 duties this gun will do. The only thing I'm waiting on now is the 18" barrel that should be in today hopefully. :- )

I will set her up for the ~ 575-585 fps with 18.13gr JSB Jumbo heavies (same as the Black Talon) --- giving me over 13 fpe at the muzzle and a shade over 10fpe at 35 yards -----enough for pest birds at these ranges and when using CPHP's I'm in the 625fps area and I can pic off pine cones, rocks, ? all day long.

wll

My barrel won't arrive on time (rescheduled for Monday) so I sighted this gun in at 17.5 yards, she is spot on and with a ~3.25" above line of sight and a guesstimate of 600 fps using CPHP's it should put me about zero at 30 yards.  My energy is unacceptable at 11.3 fpe with this set up but that will change with the longer barrel and tune using a chrono.

I'll be out tomorrow morning to play with her a bit.

wll

[wll2506]

Took Red Co2 Talon SS out and started shooting at stuff around 7am. At the 30-35 yard ranges I could tell the lack of power because of the shorter barrel. The SS using Co2 was quieter than just a 18" barrel, but the 18" barrel using Co2 is manageable sound wise ---- using HPA with the same tube the gun is loud and not backyard friendly.

BTW: My 25 cal Talon P with the DonnyFL Tatsu is quieter then the Co2 Talon SS, shooting 33.95 gr JSB's at 730fps (of course that is a HPA gun) !!!

This Co2 SS Talon is nice for plinking when you want a quieter gun, but if you want that 12-13fpe with Co2 IMHO you will need that longer barrel. I chronoed one shot this am using CPHP's and got a reading of 568fps, not close to the 625fps with these pellets to give me the 12+ fpe I need ! This 568fps speed gives me a bit over 10fpe and is fine for plinking pine cones, nuts, road rocks and maybe rats :-) --- but IMHO not enough for 35 yard Starling shots or chest shots on Pigeons at that distance. Using JSB Jumbo Heavies at 18.13gr and getting 575fps gives me 13+ fpe and because of the much, much better BC gives very doable pest bird energy in the 35-40 yard area when using Co2 --- this is what I'm after as this is what I got using my stock Black Talon with the factory 18" barrel.

I must say I'm GREATLY enjoying using the Talon with Co2. I shoot and shoot, and fill the 20oz Co2 canister after about every tin ++ of pellets. I now have my own 20lb fill tank that is good for ~ 15+ 20oz tank refills. I will fill a 20oz tank to about 17-18 oz. Which will give me about 12 oz of full power (2/3rds fill) or ~ 50 shots per oz x 12 = 600 shots :-) I think I'm in the ballpark?

Pic of Red Co2 Talon in The Wild Below:



As I'm out plinking I'm bombarded with doves, being it is not dove season and using an airgun is not a legal method of take, I sit and watch ---- hoping a Starling follows suit :-) in the meantime I'm smacking stuff that fits my fancy :-)

After another half hour of blasting stuff, I'm out a hear and will be back tomorrow.

wll

[wll2506]

Got my 18" 22 cal barrel and put it in the Talon SS frame, it fit in fine, the 18" barrel sticks out of the barrel bushing about -1/4 inch or so. --- this is a heavy barrel so the gun has more weight to it and feels very stable --- fine for my use and might help with accuracy.

I set her up at 6.8 on the power wheel scale and will test out velocity and sight her in when I get home, I'm hoping for around the same speed as I was getting with my standard 18" barreled Talon. This will be my standard car/plinking/mess around gun. The large Co2 tank (either 20oz or 12oz) makes it great for lots of shots without refilling. C02 is really finicky when it comes to temp s we all know, but that is all art of the air gun hobby.



Will report back after I sight her in and get velocity readings ;-  )

wll

[wll2506]

I sighted the new 18" barrel in while chronographing with CPHP's. I was pretty much on target as I was sighted in with the 12" barrel and they were about an inch high and an inch left ... easy to re-adjust !

This new barrel is very nice, it is a heavy barrel like I mentioned and it is pretty stable. The barrel is also a tiny bit easier to load and so it MAY not be as tight ? because of that I'm getting velocities about -10fps faster than my regular 18" barreled Talon and speeds about 50-60fps faster than the 12 inch barrel. I'm very happy with that. I did not test the JSB Jumbo Heavies, but I may be getting in the 585+- fps area ---- this equates to about 13.5ish fpe .... I'm stoked !
below are my sight in shots as recorded with CPHP's !



wll

[Nvreloader]

Will
You might want to check with the local Fish and Game wardens, about the Euro-Asian doves,
most states declare them an invasive species, and they can be taken via ANY method and NO bag limit,
they are fair game 24/7/365 here........
I don't eat them, but have several friends that will take all I can supply etc. 

Tia,
Don

[wll2506]

Will
You might want to check with the local Fish and Game wardens, about the Euro-Asian doves,
most states declare them an invasive species, and they can be taken via ANY method and NO bag limit,
they are fair game 24/7/365 here........
I don't eat them, but have several friends that will take all I can supply etc. 

Tia,
Don

Hummmm  thank you, I will check on that :-)

wll