A Question About Co2 ?

[Ribbonstone]

Climate counts.

Put a differnt stock on the old 5mm CO2 QB 12gr.....am shooting it at 25 yards today.

(WHY? HAve a lot of 5mm pellets.)

Can't play the temperature protection game with a QB that can be played with an exposed tank/exposed valve TAlon/Talon SS,,,,maybe that would  keep cooling (or heating) more long-term than short-term.

It's 66F here (the cold front won't come in until early tomorrow AM) and I'm not bothering to do anything but keep it close to ambaint.  Warmer than that in the house,so have to leave it out for a half hour...but once it stablizes, will only shoot when the therometer reads the same.

Likely to lose a bit of speed...don't expect a major power change...do expect  to run out of gas sooner in the cool than in the warm...will see.

Not sure there is any "natural"cure for at least some velocity change with 20-25F difference in temp (a free range/orgainic co2 rifle?).

With a small (like 28F change),would accept a 10-12% energy change so long as the accuracy was as good.

Will see.

[wll2506]

I'm at my spot at around 11:15 or so, the wind is howling. I take out the Co2 Talon and the tank reads 72 degrees. Once the gun is on my lap the tank climbs to just above 80 degrees and stays there. I take a temp reading at the ground and it is 50.2 degrees.

I load up a CPHP and let it rip at a rock some 35 yards out, the pellet arrives with authority. As I sit and wait a ground squirrel hops the brick fence and decides to warm himself. He was about 25 yards away, but I did not take a shot although he would have been pushing up daisies if I was in the mood. I'm waiting on a flying rat, so I'll just wait and hope one lands.

It has been a half hour since the GS sighting, I take another tank temp reading, it's 81.3 degrees.

Two pigeons have landed on a barn some 60 yards out, but quickly take off ---- so I wait a bit longer.

Another 15 minutes pass, I'm through waiting, I'll be back tomorrow :-)

wll

[Ribbonstone]

Happened to like the wood stock on one old 78S more than the other 78S..so I swapped the stocks.  Purely an personal/visual choice...didn't make a rat'sarse how it eventually adjusted/shot.
DSCN3069 by Robert Dean, on Flickr

New stock, that rifle did drop a good bit in energy from it's middle-80F tuning.  Pretty nice from about 94F to about 75F...when to "co2 velocity dive" after that.

Didn't really care much about energy so long as it was consitent temp.and shot well.

DSCN3073 by Robert Dean, on Flickr

Well...velocity/energy took a dump past 72F.  Pretty darned good (free range) from about 100F to about 72F...about the 4% we give non-regulated PCP's....not going to "make it"in the late fall/winter...but takes care of my climate for like 9 months out of the year.

COULD adjust it to run wel,but slower/less energy,from 83-60F....or even lower energy from 75-65F...and be pretty much  "4% even" in velocity and energy.
Acuracy at the low end:
Two old tins of pellets ...one pretty modern tin (my fault...I have a lot of 5mm pellets stashed away,and I really should use up the oldest first).
66F shooting:
DSCN3074 by Robert Dean, on Flickr
Slower/less energetic  vas.the higher temp shots....by a whole lot...but just about the same accuracy (so long as you leave it alone to get back toambaint temp.)
Did not change the scope "clicks"untilI decided which of the 3 pellets is going to be what I shoot.

At  66F...it's slow
It's considerasbly lower power.

But still consistantly accurate so long as I keep the temp/pressure the same.
Doesn't HATE any of the stashed  5mm pellets.


Measured..adjuted (the click vaule on this cheap TedcForce scope seems to be a true adjustment).

End up with this with the last place (of the 3 ) pellets....and down to ab out +9 foot pounds.
DSCN3072 by Robert Dean, on Flickr

OKJ..it's a hey!-CO2  moment....it's co2....what to do you really expect to happen?

[wll2506]

I'll be going out again in about a half hour from now and I'm REALLY having fun learning about Co2 !

Within its perimeters Co2 has enough poop for small game at reasonable ranges and its accuracy can be very, very good. As Ribbonstone and others have stated I have seen how temperature plays an important effect of my guns velocity. Yesterday when shooting indoors and my tank was about 60ish degrees my velocity was mostly in the 608 - 612 fps area .... when the tank started to be in the 70's my velocity was in the 619-622 fps area. and when the tank is in the 80's my velocity is in the 635 fps+ area.

At 15-20 yards that doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference for me, but at my longest ranges of 30-40yards it does I'm sure. After taking this gun out it is quite evident to me that I can keep the tank temperature in the high 70's low 80's on a day when the outside is 30-35 degrees. on a warmer day I don't see any problem except to keep the bottle from getting to warm. The Talon with the 20oz tank attached is pretty much a car/bench/blind gun, I don't see myself walking around the hills with it, I have a few QB78's that I can use for that. If I had a few 12oz Co2 tanks, that would be walk around doable ;-  ) (I may look into that !!).

What I enjoy about the Co2 is I get LOTS of shots, I don't have to start my compressor to fill my master tank with air, the gun is not as loud as my HPA guns for sure, and as I mentioned at 12 fpe + it is more than doable for Pigeon, Starlings, etc to around 40 yards ------- perfect for me, and it is what the boys in England use.

I did have to buy a Co2 holding tank and get some extras for filling, but every new airgun adventure is going to cost an initial start up. I talked to  a Co2 refill station and the cost for a 20lb fill is $25.00, figuring 14 fills on a full 20lb tank (it is actually probably more, but using 14) $25.00 /14 =$1.785 per 20 oz fill. After about 3 1/2 20lb fills the set up cost has paid for itself !!

Anyway, I'm heading back out to shoot, will get back at ya later ;-  )


wll

[wll2506]

I'm out at my spot, it's about 34 degrees, looks like it's about ready to rain --- the tank is in the front seat in my lap and it is reading about 72 degrees, boy is it cold today. I have a CPHP loaded up and not one sign of life ---- I mean nothing. Got here at 7:45am and its 8:30am now. I'll put hands around the tank and wait for a pest to show his head.

After a few minutes the ground squirrel from yesterday shows his head, I give him a pass for now :-)

I take a ground temp reading, it reads 30 degrees !! ---- my tank is reading 68.9 infrared thermometer and 68 with the temp tape --- so they are both close and in the zone, i have not had the heater on in the car and both hands have not been cradling the tank to keep it where it was before..

Well another 20 minutes have passed, I'm freezing and nothing has landed ---- I'm out a here. I'll be back tomorrow morning for a few minutes before Christmas day activities start. i think I'll check for 12oz Co2 tanks ;- )

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Just went "On Line" and bought 3ea 12oz Tipperman tanks ... now if I want i can carry the gun in the field if I so desire ;-  )   I think I will get about 400+ shots with the 12oz tanks ..... Much more than a days outing for sure ;-  )


wll

[Ribbonstone]

When I did run a Talon SS on co2 (and usually kept the 5mm barrel in place)….liked the 9oz and 12oz co2 tanks.   Could at least wrap a cover around the skinny tanks and not press my face onto a fat metal tank.

[wll2506]

When I did run a Talon SS on co2 (and usually kept the 5mm barrel in place)…liked the 9oz and 12oz co2 tanks.   Could at least wrap a cover around the skinny tanks and not press my face onto a fat metal tank.

Yes, the 20 oz is big for sure. I just bought 3ea 12oz tanks for field use.


wll

[Ribbonstone]

Can't get to my old pictures....refused to pay the "ransom",so they locked me out.
But consider....you just took a drive out and back and didn't shoot "snit"...that happens to any good hunter that doesn't waste hunting shots splattering cow pies or knocking over pine cones.......so shots per fill aren't a big important deal.  Even a little (skinny) 3oz. tank would be worth something like  70-80 shots with a gas-hog.

Did set that old Talon SS with a skinny/tiny tank and an AR type stock/tank cover.
 

[wll2506]

At my spot again, been waiting 15 minutes and two Pigeons fly in and land on the back side of the building ---- I have not shot any Pigeons for a long, long while at this location, but man alive, they must remember me as they stay clear of me for sure.

Tank is on my lap, reads 77 degrees, I'm loaded up and ready to go. I will stick around another 15 minutes, and then I'm leaving till tomorrow.

We, its cold enough to start snowing so I'm now officially out a here. I take a couple of shots (out of pure boredom, sorry Ribbonstone;- ) at a pipe 38 lasered yards away, and that 14.3 grainer smacks it hard twice ... good thing for the Pigeons they did not come by and land !

Did some scouting after my earlier am outing , but all the places are turned into solar fields and all game is gone and the land is completely ruined .... the natural beauty of the desert has turned into a trash dump of energy absorbing panels .... of course what would you expect living in Kalifornia.

Talk at ya tomorrow

wll

[wll2506]

Can't get to my old pictures....refused to pay the "ransom",so they locked me out.
But consider....you just took a drive out and back and didn't shoot "snit"...that happens to any good hunter that doesn't waste hunting shots splattering cow pies or knocking over pine cones.......so shots per fill aren't a big important deal.  Even a little (skinny) 3oz. tank would be worth something like  70-80 shots with a gas-hog.

Did set that old Talon SS with a skinny/tiny tank and an AR type stock/tank cover.

Ribbonstone, you have a very good point and a 9oz tank would be much more then enough, even if I did smack a few pine cones around. I'm hoping the 12oz tanks are to my liking, giving me shots to shoot at anything that hits my fancy, yet me knowing I have plenty of shots on bored for pest control.

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SIDE BAR: Don't you have an outside tank filled with Co2 on one of your QB78's ? Here is a pic of one of my QB78's used for HPA (it now has heavier duty strapping).



I may convert it for Co2 as I feel the HPA conversion can be a bit dangerous, even though I did everything right.  Can that HPA bottle be used for CO2 or must I have a Co2 bottle ?


Thanks Ribbonstone,

wll

[Ribbonstone]

Never have tried running co2 though an air regulator....but the 3k bottle without the regulator could be used if converted to a pin valve type valve.   Filled to the same ratio of co2 to volume, would be something like a 5oz. tank for a13CIand about 8 1/2 for a 22cuin.

Did convert a few to tankers....could be an HPA tanker or a CO2 tanker as you saw fit.

[Dave S]

Hpa should work if you are able to carefully regulate it below 900 psi. I've seen a Co2 150 Crosman pistol tested... HPA at 1400 psi at Mac-1. Worked fine....but that was with Urethane O rings and THAT Gun. Get some more input before you try anything on Your gun. dave

[Ribbonstone]

Only two QB HPA's I've kept over the years are regulated to 850-900psi....was only looking for 12ish foot pounds and figured that was actually less over all stain on the co2 system.   Regulated air stays at that pressure...co2 in the "hot" gets higher, so they seem to last that way for years on HPA.

Also doesn't make a big azz deal in a  tank-swap from co2 to low pressure air.

[Dave S]

The one disadvantage I learned from using HPA is that condensation from poorly dehumidified  air which will eventually cause internal rusting. Rust cannot form in a Co2 atmosphere and a good reason to keep all Co2 guns charged. I thought long and hard before taking the leap to HPA.   Fortunately, I have convenient access to Mac-1's $40,000 4 stage compressor and 8 tank array. For $5.00 Tim will fill my 550 cu. in. Fiber Tank (which cost more than the Gun) and is good for about 400 or so shots in my  Marauder. Just something to think about before switching from Co2 to HPA. Each has it's own advantages and disadvantages. JMHO!  dave

[wll2506]

Its 30 degrees outside, the ground is reading 28 degrees, I'm in my car freezing my butt off. Three pigeons take off from behind the old house.

I have my Co2 Talon in my lap, the temp right now is now reading 68 degrees on the bottle. HOSP are running around, but not sure I want to waste a shot.

Took out my B19 (Crosman Vantage) earlier and shot a bit with that. She is putting 14.3gr CPHP out at an 707fps average this am and 18.13gr JSB Jumbos averaging 607fps and is smooth as glass. It is one of the smoothest barrel cockers I own. It does have a gas ram in her, that greatly adds to her smoothness , but she is a bit heavy ---- IMHO a great gun for the $. The scope is a Weaver 1x power and has a tremendous field of view, I love this set up. Pic Below:



Back in my car with the Talon on my lap, bottle is reading 66 degrees, ground is reading 24 degrees and I'm doing all I can do to stop my fingers from breaking :-) --- This is NOT a good day for shooting Co2 :-)

Another 20 min has passed and the bottle is now 69 degrees on the dot. It is very close to me going home time, it is just to cold --- as a matter of fact, I'm out a here :-)

Merry Christmas all :-)

wll

[wll2506]

Hpa should work if you are able to carefully regulate it below 900 psi. I've seen a Co2 150 Crosman pistol tested... HPA at 1400 psi at Mac-1. Worked fine....but that was with Urethane O rings and THAT Gun. Get some more input before you try anything on Your gun. dave

That pic a couple post above is "ONE" of my HPA QB78/79's that I have. I have always been a bit leery of the HPA pressure although I did all the stuff needed to make it safe.i have another one that looks just like it and another with a tank out front ... I very well might just take off those HPA tanks and put 7 or 9 oz Co2 tank on to take their place. I'll be getting enough velocity for that guns in the field, instead of trying to get "FULL POWER" out of them.

I have two '79's like the one below that are set up for target and are tack drivers... may change those to Co2 also.



wll

[wll2506]

Arrive at my spot at 7:30am, tank is at 76 degrees, load up and shortly after a Starling lands - 35 yards out, I put the gun up, cock but forgot to take the safety off, the Starling fly's off ----- I don't get a lot of shots so I was very disappointed in myself.

C%@P, I may not get another chance !!!!

It is a good bit warmer today, the 8am morning ground is reading 35.4 degrees and my tank is reading 82+, so I'm in good shape. There is a very slight wind, but if it stays like it is things should be fine. 99 percent of the HOSPS flew off, but if I see another in the 25-35 yard range, I'll take a shot.

20 minutes have past and the wind has picked up a bit and it has gotten colder, I'm packing up and out a here.

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Get home and find a stash of JSB Jumbos, I set stuff up to try them out. Maybe a worthwhile step up from the CPHP's ------ and Yes they are.

Normal velocity with CPHP's is around 620fps, these Jumbos averaged 603fps. Jumbo muzzle energy is 12.83fpe and CPHP muzzle energy is 12.21fpe

With the BC difference in pellets I'm going around 21fps faster with the Jumbos at 35 yards and have 9.68fpe compared to 8.35fpe with the CPHP. Very nice downrange performance with the Jumbos ;-  )

I was very happy with this as I still have enough speed for shooting semi flat to 40 yards, and have more energy with the Jumbos :-)

I did not test for accuracy, but my hunch is the Jumbos will be pretty good. I may go out a bit later today, hopefully the wind will have died down.

wll

[wll2506]

At my spot at 7ish, have the new filled 20oz tank and the wheel has been adjusted to 5.8. Took out the FX Chrono and I'm shooting in the 665fps+ range with 14.3gr CPHP's, JSB Jumbo Heavies are in the 617fps+ range ---- that's 14+ and 15+ fpe respectively ---- that is awesome with Co2 ! I will check this out again tomorrow ! I'm removing the CO@ tank after shooting as It might be bleeding co2 when the tank is left on.

I'm not smacking rocks and playing around to much this am as I'm waiting for targets of opportunity:-) it is 37 degrees and no wind, my car is pretty warm and I'm sitting tight. My new 20oz tank rubber butt pad is on the gun, Its ugly but it works :-)   Pic below:



So far have not heard any yotes, even in the distance. It's 7:45 now and have not heard or seen a living thing .... a CPHP is loaded up and waiting for action. (It really should be a JSB Jumbo, but a CPHP will do :-)

After about 15 more minutes of waiting I hear the flapping of wings and a Pigeon leaves from the back of the building and circles and lands 35 yards out on the chimney, I raise my Talon with the CPHP in the barrel, set the cross hairs just below the left wing joint as I can see his chest, as he quarters left I squeeze ----- THWACK a solid side hit, he takes off flying very low and lower, he crashes, I go over .... DOA. ----- The 22 cal Co2 Talon and CPHP did its duty, another pest bits the dust and a first for me with a Co2 gun ;- )

I go back sit and wait for another chance, but leave to come back tomorrow.

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Side Bar:

My Red used Talon SS arrives this Thursday or Friday, that is the gun that will be a dedicated Co2 gun from now on. I have a used 18" barrel that I will install and a used R&L shroud that will be put on to keep the gun as quiet as possible.

This should be a very cool Co2 pest and plinking gun for sure. ---- pictures will follow;- )

wll

[crazyhorse1]

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[Dave S]

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Hey Rich, You probably deleted what I was already thinking!   dave