RICOCHETS — What happens after they get deflected?

[JungleShooter]

Yesterday I had a shot that got deflected by some ancient cable, that was still hanging up there, occupying the same airspace that my pellet was cruising. 😟


So, now I'm wondering:
🔶What happens to a projectile when it gets deflected?🔶

🔸(1) Will it flip over and keep rotating, i.e., alternating head then tail first — or will it right itself?

🔸(2) What happens to its energy — will a .22cal 12FPE pellet still have about that much energy left after the deflection — or will it loose a lot of energy?

🔸(3) Will it punch through a leaf and pretty much stay on track — say for another half yard?   (Squirrel hunters, please chime in...!)

🔸(4) Any tips on how to avoid ricochets when shooting through a maze of cables, or ranches and leaves?


THANKS! 😊
Matthias

[wolverine]

Yesterday I had a shot that got deflected by some ancient cable, that was still hanging up there, occupying the same airspace that my pellet was cruising. 😟


So, now I'm wondering:
🔶What happens to a projectile when it gets deflected?🔶

🔸(1) Will it flip over and keep rotating, i.e., alternating head then tail first — or will it right itself?

🔸(2) What happens to its energy — will a .22cal 12FPE pellet still have about that much energy left after the deflection — or will it loose a lot of energy?

🔸(3) Will it punch through a leaf and pretty much stay on track — say for another half yard?   (Squirrel hunters, please chime in...!)

🔸(4) Any tips on how to avoid ricochets when shooting through a maze of cables, or ranches and leaves?


THANKS! 😊
Matthias

when i was a range officer we had a training video we showed the cadets for fun.  in the video they talk about and show, different handgun and rifle calibers going through media and striking a target.  i recall the .223 passing through a leaf and leaving a not so round hole in the paper target.


i would bet you'd have some stay their course, and some that deflect. 

[Doug Wall]

They can do almost anything! In your case, the pellet was probably deformed when it hit the cable. After it's deformed and deflected, it can do anything. How much energy is left depends on many factors, and you can't make any generalizations, other than the fact that some energy and velocity will be lost.
"Any tips on how to avoid ricochets when shooting through a maze of cables, or ranches and leaves?" Yes, aim so that you don't hit any of them!

[null]

A couple years ago, I was shooting one of my AR500 steel plates with my (new at the time) Crosman NP2 Crusher (.22 cal), one of the shots ricocheted and hit one of my barn windows well over 100 yards. Broke the glass.

After that, I re-engineered the area I shoot the plates...

Be careful... shoot safely!

[JungleShooter]

"Any tips on how to avoid ricochets when shooting through a maze of cables, or ranches and leaves?"
Yes, aim so that you don't hit any of them!

Well, Doug, that's exactly what I wanted some tips for.... Because I aimed my line of sight through the scope free of any cable or otherwise.... 😄

Matthias

[JungleShooter]

One of the shots ricocheted and hit one of my barn windows well over 100 yards. Broke the glass.

Chuck,

that's surprising, wow. 🤔  Bummer. 

Sounds like the shot was either a non-lead pellet or a BB, or something hard and elastic enough to hit steel and bounce back (it bounced BACK, right?).



Usually, lead pellets hitting an extra hard surface like rock or steel just flatten like a pancake — at least from what I observed and read.... 
I could be wrong...

I'm trying to understand what happened:
🔶(1)  A pellet shot with the crusher with say 20FPE ME shooting 30y to the steel plate target, and then 100y more from the steel plate to the window would only have 7FPE left at impact — barely enough to brake a window.
Now that assumes the highest possible BC for a pellet in that configuration, 0.030 — rather optimistic.

🔶(2) But after hitting the steel the pellet deformes, if not to a pancake with a BC of near zero, then in the best case scenario into a perfectly shaped wadcutter. Those have BCs of around 0.012 or less.


🔶(3) And flying 100y from steelplate to window with that BC will slow it down so much that its impact energy is around 2FPE.
And tests have shown that 2FPE often won't even be enough to penetrate an eye....


Just trying to understand what exactly happened when that window broke....
I wasn't there, so all I got is math..... 😄


Chuck, your point stands:  I will be more careful! 👍🏼👍🏼
Thanks.

Matthias

[RBQChicken]

I deliberately shot some pellets at some rocks in my yard, to hear if I could get that "ricochet" sound that you used to hear in the old western movies.  Found out you can!  And, for the record, they were only moving at around 700 fps (.22 cal pellets)

[null]

I was using Crosman pellets. Don't remember if they were the Ultra Magnums or the HPs.

I found the piece that hit it, as it slid between the panes of glass. It was for sure one of my Crosman pellets that got mangled up hitting the plate. On top of that, you look from the window to the plate, it's a direct 45 degree angle.

So I built a wooden shield that would contain lead from going in that direction out of 2x6's. From looking at the damage the wood has endured, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner or more often. There are shards thin as a razor blade about 1/2-3/4" into the wood which is interesting too. Shows the power of a .22 airgun...

As far as the ricochet sound, I get that all the time shooting clays, especially with slugs.  Sounds like the wild wild west... lol

[subscriber]

There is no way that a projectile has the potential to travel further, or do more damage at range, after striking some solid material (that is able to deform the projectile or upset its flight), than if the projectile travelled only though air on the way to the object struck.  The simple reason is that a deformed, wobbling or tumbling projectile has much more drag than an undamaged one flying tangent to its trajectory. 

The reason why ricochets are "bad" is because the direction the projectile travels is unpredictable.  It may clear a backstop and damage something or someone that the backstop would otherwise prevent.  A "kill shot" on quarry may become a miss; or worse, a wounding shot.  Also bad, is the sound associated with an unpredictable trajectory.  Especially when the projectile is "incoming" or passing by the "observer".

The greater the projectile deformation or disturbance, the worse its BC will be.  A projectile that makes the typical whining sound of a ricochet can still do lots of damage, but it won't travel very far; compared to the same projectile flying directly through air.   It has the potential to damage something not considered a target.

Shooting through a paper target is not going to upset or slow down a projectile very much.  Shooting through a cardboard obliquely probably has much more potential for "malicious misdirection".   So, for the sake of discussion the unintended object strike needs to be something at least as dense as a twig.  For small caliber airgun pellets, a blade of grass might be enough to miss the vitals of a shot on appropriate sized game.  See the videos below.

Shooting through "brush" is always a bad idea.  It is worse, the further the intended target is from the potential twigs that might be struck first.  If vermin is a half inch behind a twig, neither the projectile deformation, nor the induced angular error in the projectile path will matter much - assuming the projectile had enough energy to more than pass through the animal with a direct shot. 

If we are talking a about shooting a deer that is 25 yards behind twigs, that is rolling the dice in a bad way; towards wounding the animal, to die a lingering death, somewhere else.

[subscriber]

And tests have shown that 2FPE often won't even be enough to penetrate an eye....

Somewhere on this forum is a list of the energy required to penetrate human skin and eyes.  The problem with a simple energy number is that it has to include the surface area that a given quantity of energy is dissipated into.  In part, this is due to pressure being equal to load over area.  If the pressure generated in the material does not exceed the material's tensile, compressive or shear strength, then the material will not be ruptured.  Reducing the contact area increases the contact pressure, to more easily exceed the material strength (the operating principle of a knife blade).

A low energy .25 pellet striking a aluminum sheet nose first, will not penetrate as well as a .177.  A deformed pellet or fragment with a sharp edge or point is going to penetrate something soft like a cornea much easier than if the whole pellet were flying nose first (assuming both are carrying 2 FPE). 

I shot a full soda can from 8 feet with a Beeman P17.  Much to my surprise the 7 grain wadcutter pellet passed completely through the can, across its diameter.  This was only a 2.5 FPE shot, yet based on the damage it did to two layers of aluminum with 2.5" of fluid in between, an eye would be obliterated by the same pellet at 2 FPE....  This, while something large, slow and deformable, such as a 2 ounce tennis ball at 45 FPS would cause temporary discomfort at double that energy level.  Yes, the eye socket and skull would take the brunt of that impact; but only because of the large area involved.

[Back_Roads]

 Great advice to ingest, unless you are the VP of a bank in Beverly Hills 
 
Always be sure of your surroundings and do not think just due to low chances something could go wrong it will never happen.
 I good friend in the neighborhood had a local shooting range make major modifications due to his property possibly being in direct line of fire.

[north country gal]

It is possible for a pellet to ricochet off a hard surface if the pellet strikes a glancing blow off the edge of the object and doesn't flatten, completely. I've had it happen with metal spinner targets. Rare, to be sure, but it has happened.

Interestingly, it's been with the inexpensive small, light metal spinner targets that you can get at Wal-Mart and other stores that carry a few air guns and pellets. I suspect there's not enough resistance to adequately deform the pellet when it strikes the edge, just right, on one of these very light spinners. Something to keep in mind for anyone using these in the backyard with neighbors around. Might be a good idea to place the spinner target up against a backstop to snag a ricochet if it happens. We don't have neighbors, so not much of an issue.



I've never had a ricochet, though, with larger and heavier spinner targets. The greater weight and/or the thicker edge surface may be why, but just a guess on my part.



I have never had a ricochet, though, off of the heavier/larger spinner targets. 

[Doug Wall]

"Usually, lead pellets hitting an extra hard surface like rock or steel just flatten like a pancake — at least from what I observed and read....
I could be wrong..."
That's only true if they hit a surface that's perpendicular to the direction of travel. Any other angle of hit can result in a partially deformed pellet, spinning 4$$ over teakettle. That spinning is what causes the ricochet sound that we're familiar with.

[subscriber]

When Matt Dubber and his hinting buddies shoot pigeons with 70 FPE .22 slugs, the slugs often make that whining sound after passing through.  Even when hitting nothing but bird.  If you want to see specific examples I will go find them.  The questions about where to post hunting videos will come up...

[Hoosier Daddy]

While recently visiting a fellow member, he had a VERY nice range set-up.
 But an oddity to me was a steel plate tilted about 45 degrees sideways and 30 degrees up. 
"Ricochet Target."
 After he assured me there wasn't another house down range for miles, I gave it a try.
Sure enough, every shot yeilded the classic PEWWWWW sound. 

[Privateer]

One of the favorite things to shoot at my place is what we call "The Ricochet Target".
It's a heavy steel plate set at about a 45 degree angle about 45 yards out.
The pellets go zinging with that wonderful sound harmlessly into the woods.
We have talked about adding a second plate to do a double ricochet.
Then adding a paper target to see the effects after 2 transitions in travel.
Also wonder if the LabRadar can give me the info on the pellets as they deflect.

Dang it! You beat me to the basics!
 

[Hoosier Daddy]

Wasn't going to "call you out" Buddy but I am already on the "scavenger hunt" for my own.
Maybe just set one of my mild steel 2X4 box tube cuttoffs that I brought would work. 

[Privateer]

I'm thinking, and have been for awhile, to place a mirror on the plate and shooting a laser at it to see the deflection.
Now that would give me a rough idea as to where the pellet might be going.
I say might because the pellet would actually be hitting the plate in a slight downward arc.
Plus the pellet would be spinning. Could that influence the deflection angle? Most probably.

I do know shooting through a cars windshield causes the round to deflect at a predictable angle and off set in a VERY short distance of travel!

[Privateer]

but I am already on the "scavenger hunt" for my own.

Should have said something. I have several here I'd happily given you!

[Insanity]

That plate is my all time favorite to shoot second is the bell.