Flyers !....Is it the gun or the pellet ?

[Nomadic Pirate]

So, you are consistently shooting tight groups, then now and again you get THAT flyer.

To me unless you are sorting your pellets to a tight tolerance in both weight and size ( head and skirt ) ........you cannot blame the gun for that flyer.

I blame the pellets 

[Chris USA]

If you sort,... it ain't the pellets! That very nicely narrows it down to about a half dozen other things!   

[Mod90]

Imho, don't matter if you sort by head size, weight, or both. But it's seasier to make it the pellets fault, what's it gonna do, complain? Lol
I say sorting doesn't matter, in the context that even the best set up with the most precisely sorted ammo, and the most experienced shooter on a perfect day, can have the occasional shot do something downrange that has them saying "what was that".

Sometimes it's the gun, other times it's the pellet, other times it's an errant wind, and then other times it's the shooter. All that matters is that we strive for perfection, even if we don't achieve it, it takes away nothing, and reminds us that we are not perfect and that occasionally stuff happens that we can't control no matter how much we'd like to think differently.

Just my  2 lead quarters.

[strever]

Manny
haven't you had a barrel lead up and throw a flyer ?

not blaming the gun just blaming the barrel
happens all the time
even sorted pellets can have a bad non concentric creating a flyer
and i do not know how to find those kind of bad pellets

So, you are consistently shooting tight groups, then now and again you get THAT flyer.

To me unless you are sorting your pellets to a tight tolerance in both weight and size ( head and skirt ) ........you cannot blame the gun for that flyer.

I blame the pellets 

[Dan H]

So, you are consistently shooting tight groups, then now and again you get THAT flyer.

To me unless you are sorting your pellets to a tight tolerance in both weight and size ( head and skirt ) ........you cannot blame the gun for that flyer.

I blame the pellets 

NO in your case .... its the shooter !   

[wolverine]

i spent some time sorting pellets for size and weight.  then i inspected each 1 with a jeweler's loupe to make sure there were no defects.  i was setup inside a building with no windows and the doors shut.  the gun was rested on bags front and rear.  my goal was to see how small a group i could get at 35 yards (the length of the building) with my Daystate Regal XL.  shooting 4 - 10 shot groups at a 3/8" solid dot.  it was going great until the 33rd shot went left just a hair, but enough to be outside the circle.  inspecting the target after all 40 shots were taken revealed a single wing stuck to the paper next to the "flier".  apparently a bug of sorts was hit in flight and it was enough to push the JSB 15.89 enough to ruin my group.


sometimes it's the pellets.  sometimes it's the rifle.  most the time it's the shooter.  but every so often, it's something unforeseen.

[Nomadic Pirate]

Manny
haven't you had a barrel lead up and throw a flyer ?

not blaming the gun just blaming the barrel
happens all the time
even sorted pellets can have a bad non concentric creating a flyer
and i do not know how to find those kind of bad pellets

So, you are consistently shooting tight groups, then now and again you get THAT flyer.

To me unless you are sorting your pellets to a tight tolerance in both weight and size ( head and skirt ) ........you cannot blame the gun for that flyer.

I blame the pellets 

I hardly ever clean the barrels I can go years without,
..........btw I wasn't talking about my own experiences, just thinking about what I read around and it seem to me the vast majority of the blame for flyers is directed to guns.

[Fate]

Define "flyer."

[Back_Roads]

 Around here I blame flyers on the wind 

[subscriber]

Flyers are caused by shooting groups - especially when using high mag scopes.  To be more precise, too much nervous tension or a lack of mental focus, when shooting the last shot in what was up till then a "tight group" causes you to hold the gun differently, or release the shot differently.

To check for the above, always shoot 5 shot groups with only 4 shots in them; or 10 shot groups with 9 shots in them . 

The problem is either relaxing before the shot string is actually over (lack of follow through on the last shot), or a  "don't screw this up" train of thought causing unintentional muscular tension.   

I shoot better when I shoot faster; especially when group size does not matter.  For instance, if I am collecting velocity data and shooting over a chrony, at a target that just happens to be there, I shoot better, than when I want a really good group to show off.

Joking aside, if you can see a tight group forming through your scope you are more likely to be distracted by the group, than aiming at the aimpoint in the same manner that you did for the previous shots.

This is where multiple small single aim points might actually be more useful.  There is no group to screw up.  Yet, if you have 50 shots all clipping their own tiny dot, that is the equivalent of a very tight 50 shot group.  Just, without the pressure.  Or the distraction.

If you can call the shot that resulted in a flyer, and the hole appears far away from where it was expected, that is most likely a pellet that was different in some significant way.  If good looking pellets with similar dimensions and weights do this occasionally, a particularly large lead flake in the barrel may have tripped it up.  Such a flake may be carried out by the shot, so not affecting the next so many shots.  Until it builds up again.

If shooting a cleaning pellet (in front of a lead pellet, if using a springer) reduces the tendency to produce fliers, then that supports the dirty barrel theory.  Over cleaning the barrel tends to upset the system completely, until a certain level of stable lead is in the barrel...

A lower mag scope may actually help you, by preventing you from watching the group develop, and being distracted by that, instead of mentally focusing on the aimpoint, trigger release, and follow through.

[KevinJBrown]

I define a "flyer" as something that didn't go where I aimed within tolerance. If I don't know where I aimed, then the problem is bigger than a "flyer."

This can happen with any kind of projectile. I don't normally shoot a lot of "groups" simply because it makes troubleshooting harder. I have carried this practice through archery (which also can get expensive if you start aiming at nocks  ), rifles, pistols, guns, etc.. I want to be careful that my practices don't become like what subscriber is describing. It doesn't have to be the last shot; a bad shot habit can develop on any or every shot in a string. Also with arrows, magazines etc. if I number things, and shoot at different bulls, and go through the same pattern target after target, if one arrow or chamber has a problem, it will show up in my notes. Also with targets going through the same pattern on a target can save time and help with muscle memory. If I am gathering other data besides just where the projectile hits, I can also correlate that. The same can be done with a good spotter or spotting scope if you want to interrupt your shooting to keep the information between shots (I prefer to use different targets around the paper most of the time except at long distance).

As far as what causes a flyer if I figure those out, I'll write the seminal manual on air guns and you can all read it.

[Fate]

Can't remember when I had a flyer... one so far from the POA that I don't know what caused it.

I single load when I'm shooting seriously. My targets are a grid of white dots the size of a pellet. I shoot them one by one. If any white is showing when I inspect the results I count that as a miss, by the degree the white shows.

I also process each pellet on a little fixture... a small wood block with embedded ball bearings that normalize the skirts first, then a pass with the base over the block to ensure it's flat and parallel. It's surprising how many pellets in a good tin of quality pellets are not "perfect." After being processed, however, the only significant difference would be the weight... but it won't affect anything but the vertical, which virtually never happens.

[KevinJBrown]

I also process each pellet on a little fixture... a small wood block with embedded ball bearings that normalize the skirts first, then a pass with the base over the block to ensure it's flat and parallel. It's surprising how many pellets in a good tin of quality pellets are not "perfect." After being processed, however, the only significant difference would be the weight... but it won't affect anything but the vertical, which virtually never happens.

Jeff,
Would you mind sharing a picture of your fixture? I've been working on processing pellets and I've been discarding more than I want simply because I don't have a way to normalize the damaged ones from the tins.
I'm still struggling to explain flyers, but a lot of that has to do with my inexperience with air rifles and their inner workings and ammunition and how much can be contributed to each. Also how much wind can affect the flight of a pellet at such short ranges (>50 yards) has surprised me.

[nced]

So, you are consistently shooting tight groups, then now and again you get THAT flyer.

To me unless you are sorting your pellets to a tight tolerance in both weight and size ( head and skirt ) ........you cannot blame the gun for that flyer.

I blame the pellets 

LOL....sometimes the flier is due to the SHOOTER, especially if shooting a springer!

Here are a couple groups with what I'm thinking are "bucket sitting induced fliers"................

LOL....the 50 yard group is smaller than the 40 yard group and a case where the "fliers" were "pellet related".........

[Fate]

The block has been surfaced to be flat, but textured. The bearings are to either size truly misshapen ones by penetrating the skirt deeper, or just ensure the roundness of perimeters that look mostly ok.

Different pellets take different techniques... heavier pellets with shallow and thicker skirts use the larger bearing. Lighter and flimsy pellets get the small one first then a gentle touch on the larger, so as not to flare it. Lighter pellets are prone to being deformed.

So first look at pellet.and choose bearing, press and turn, then a firm or light pass across the block depending on pellet design. Any lead tags are left behind on the block. Another look at pellet, then load.

Cartridge case with bearing is a seater for .22 springer.

[ballisticboy]

I modelled the effects of two different faults of pellets on errors at the target at 50 yards. The velocities were low as I was looking at .177 pellets at sub 12FPE. One fault was if the pellet CG was slightly off the centreline and the other was if the pellet had a small flatspot on the dome of the head making it slightly out of balance aerodynamically. One thing which came out of the results was that if the orientation of the two faults lay in one particular direction the error at the target suddenly got much bigger. Weighing and head size sorting will not eliminate either of these faults.

As has been said though there are many possible reasons, the main ones being the shooter and any slight wind there may be.

[Nomadic Pirate]

Around here I blame flyers on the wind 

LOL That is also what I do

[nced]

I modelled the effects of two different faults of pellets on errors at the target at 50 yards. The velocities were low as I was looking at .177 pellets at sub 12FPE. One fault was if the pellet CG was slightly off the centreline and the other was if the pellet had a small flatspot on the dome of the head making it slightly out of balance aerodynamically. One thing which came out of the results was that if the orientation of the two faults lay in one particular direction the error at the target suddenly got much bigger. Weighing and head size sorting will not eliminate either of these faults.

As has been said though there are many possible reasons, the main ones being the shooter and any slight wind there may be.

"small flatspot on the dome of the head making it slightly out of balance aerodynamically."
Years ago I received a case of die lot marked and dated boxed Crosman Premiers and every pellet in a box looked like this...........

My intention was to return the whole case to Crosman however I thought I'd shoot a few from my R9 to see if they would be OK in the accuracy department. To my surprise they were every bit as accurate as the most accurate die lot and date stamp used previously.

At that time Crosman was having QC issues with pellet head sizes so I took a different box over to my brother's place to test from his .177 R9. Every pellet in the second box had the same weird shaped dome, however the accuracy from my brother's R9 was just like mine.

That case of CPLs had a strange date stamp where the date stamps was upside down relative to the month and year stamp so we decided to pool our money together and buy every remaining case of CPLs with the same "strange date stamp" from the vendor. A couple weeks later we split up a few cases and those pellets were reserved for only field target matches and squirrel hunting.

Anywhoo....SOMETIMES looks can be deceiving! 

[Dbez1]

Around here I blame flyers on the wind 

LOL That is also what I do

Where I shoot, the first thing I look at is the wind, then my technique, then other things like deformed pellets, dirty barrel, mirage, etc. 90% of the time I believe it’s either wind or my technique though. 

[nced]

Around here I blame flyers on the wind 

LOL That is also what I do

Where I shoot, the first thing I look at is the wind, then my technique, then other things like deformed pellets, dirty barrel, mirage, etc. 90% of the time I believe it’s either wind or my technique though. 

"dirty barrel,"
I've found this to be the culprit on more than one occasion...........