12 ft lb guys, why use a big gun?

[Bladebum]

I watch alot of good airgun hunting vids on the web, and as most know there's alot that come from the UK. Most also know that they are limited to sub 12 ft lb guns...but i still see them using larger springers and pcps that are really designed around higher power, so Naturally(especially springers) the guns get longer and heavier.

So I'm wondering, you guys and gals across the pond, why would you choose something heavy and long like an hw80 when you could carry a nice light hw50s for example thats built around the lower power platform?

[subscriber]

Inquiring minds want to know.

The only aspect that makes some sense would be that an 11.8 FPE HW95 would be less jumpy than a HW50 at that power level, because the HW95 would be significantly detuned. 

Dropping the power to 10.5 FPE and the HW50 would seem to make a lot more sense.  Of course, there is no accounting for balance and feel.  I happen to prefer the feel of the HW50 for offhand shooting.

An even better question is why would Germans, limited to 5.5 FPE ever want anything heavier than an HW30?  Detuning an HW50 or 95 too much would make it sluggish, and hold sensitive all over again.  If the power is limited by short stroking it (by using a longer piston, or piston extension), then the shot cycle need not be sluggish.  That begs the question, what do German 5.5 FPS HW95 internals look like?  How are they different from full power models?

[happymecanic]

Your question reminds me of the early '80s american cars. My dad had a Chevrolet Caprice Classic, a BIG car, with a puny 267 cu in. engine. Luxury and prestige in a less powerful package?!

[Mark Davis]

Subscriber touched on balance in his reply.

I do quite a bit of sling supported 3 position shooting.  Due to the way my body is built a 14 3/4 in length of pull is needed in sitting position, to get shoulder, cheek weld, and hand on the pistol grip.

Loosing a little weight of rifle to get a poor fit just does not make any sense in my head.

[Doug Wall]

More weight equals more inertia, which then translates to more stability and potential accuracy. Light weight doesn't do you much good if you can't hit things.

[subscriber]

More weight equals more inertia, which then translates to more stability and potential accuracy. Light weight doesn't do you much good if you can't hit things.

Definitely true if you are shooting off a rest.  If you are standing, then supporting more weight tends to reduce the amount of time you can aim, before fatigue sets in.  When your muscles are fatigued they tend toward tremor.  Sure, you want to use your skeleton as much as possible, but that is not always possible.

Strictly speaking it is not weight, but moment that matters:  Weight x distance from your body.  The older I get, the sooner too much moment starts to wear out my ability to aim.

[Ribbonstone]

More shots per fill....usually big guns have bigger air volumes.

IF you aren't hauling it for miles, weight is a pretty good hold stabilizer once you get the muscles use to it. I'd rather carry a 5 pound carbine....stand and shoot an 8 pound rifle...and don't care what the weight a bench is holding up.


No matter the level of noise suppression, a high-powered air rifle is  a lot quieter adjusted down.

[fwbsport]

I watch alot of good airgun hunting vids on the web, and as most know there's alot that come from the UK. Most also know that they are limited to sub 12 ft lb guns...but i still see them using larger springers and pcps that are really designed around higher power, so Naturally(especially springers) the guns get longer and heavier.

So I'm wondering, you guys and gals across the pond, why would you choose something heavy and long like an hw80 when you could carry a nice light hw50s for example thats built around the lower power platform?

If they have a FAC license to shoot in England, then they are allowed to use them--I assume?

[Ribbonstone]

But if they have no need for the range/power....why would they?

[Brazos]

For PCP just buy the rifle you want and turn it down to 12fpe and enjoy more shots.  Spring rifles have another issue I learned the hard way.  In my case I really liked the RWS 34.  I came across a great deal on a RWS 350.  The thought Since it was a bigger, heavier, rifle with a nicer stock would be better than the RWS 34 once down tuned.  I was way wrong and it was a great education on a long stroke piston rifle vs a shorter stroke piston rifle.  I bought many lighter springs, cut off coils, etc for the RWS 350 and it never had a shot cycle remotely as good as the RWS 34.  Because of this the 350 was much harder to shoot.  This was a great comparison as they are basically identical rifles except for the longer compression tube on the 350 (& if I remember correctly a slightly longer piston).

[Bladebum]

Your question reminds me of the early '80s american cars. My dad had a Chevrolet Caprice Classic, a BIG car, with a puny 267 cu in. engine. Luxury and prestige in a less powerful package?!

Yep! If I wanted a truck but could only have 150 horsepower by law I wouldn't be picking an f250 and putting a 4 cylinder in it.

[Bladebum]

Inquiring minds want to know.

The only aspect that makes some sense would be that an 11.8 FPE HW95 would be less jumpy than a HW50 at that power level, because the HW95 would be significantly detuned. 

Dropping the power to 10.5 FPE and the HW50 would seem to make a lot more sense.  Of course, there is no accounting for balance and feel.  I happen to prefer the feel of the HW50 for offhand shooting.

An even better question is why would Germans, limited to 5.5 FPE ever want anything heavier than an HW30?  Detuning an HW50 or 95 too much would make it sluggish, and hold sensitive all over again.  If the power is limited by short stroking it (by using a longer piston, or piston extension), then the shot cycle need not be sluggish.  That begs the question, what do German 5.5 FPS HW95 internals look like?  How are they different from full power models?

My thoughts as well! Especially at those even lower energy requirements,  I see no reason why you'd want anything bigger than an hw30s

[Bladebum]

More shots per fill....usually big guns have bigger air volumes.

IF you aren't hauling it for miles, weight is a pretty good hold stabilizer once you get the muscles use to it. I'd rather carry a 5 pound carbine....stand and shoot an 8 pound rifle...and don't care what the weight a bench is holding up.


No matter the level of noise suppression, a high-powered air rifle is  a lot quieter adjusted down.

I get the shot count statement,  but an fx dreamline weighs 6 lbs and if you tuned down to 12 ft lbs I'd bet you'd get 150 shots or more...which I would that would be "enough" but that's definitely subjective.

I also get the weight equals more steady offhand shooting...BUT at some point that starts to become diminished as the weight and length increase. I used to have a d460 mag and the gun was over 10 pounds scoped, but the power of it needed the weight. When I see guys using that or a d48 etc in countries where they're power limited i think WHY haha . Maybe I'm just a big sissie now but I really like lighterweight guns when I'm hunting, hope someone from overseas chimes in here!

[Bladebum]

For PCP just buy the rifle you want and turn it down to 12fpe and enjoy more shots.  Spring rifles have another issue I learned the hard way.  In my case I really liked the RWS 34.  I came across a great deal on a RWS 350.  The thought Since it was a bigger, heavier, rifle with a nicer stock would be better than the RWS 34 once down tuned.  I was way wrong and it was a great education on a long stroke piston rifle vs a shorter stroke piston rifle.  I bought many lighter springs, cut off coils, etc for the RWS 350 and it never had a shot cycle remotely as good as the RWS 34.  Because of this the 350 was much harder to shoot.  This was a great comparison as they are basically identical rifles except for the longer compression tube on the 350 (& if I remember correctly a slightly longer piston).

Learned the same lesson playing around with 12 ft lb tunes on my R9. A long stroke gun really needs to be short stroked to be a good shooter at lower power levels. Otherwise your way better off smoothing things out while keeping full power

[Bladebum]

I watch alot of good airgun hunting vids on the web, and as most know there's alot that come from the UK. Most also know that they are limited to sub 12 ft lb guns...but i still see them using larger springers and pcps that are really designed around higher power, so Naturally(especially springers) the guns get longer and heavier.

So I'm wondering, you guys and gals across the pond, why would you choose something heavy and long like an hw80 when you could carry a nice light hw50s for example thats built around the lower power platform?

If they have a FAC license to shoot in England, then they are allowed to use them--I assume?

As far as i have learned that is the case. I believe it takes years to get approved though so most guys don't do it. I could be wrong about that but if I remember right thats what I read

[Long_Gun_Dallas]

Flat out, I would not want to carry something heavier than my HW50S  mainly because it is front heavy compared to other guns.   It absolutely does come down to stability.  A lot of my guns are detuned to tone down the shot cycle.  Less harsh vibration, and inertial push from whatever moving parts there are, be it a hammer or piston.  The heavier the gun is, the more it will soak up that inertial push/shock.  Also, larger guns are typically easier to stabilize from a rest.

[Ribbonstone]

Maybe they are just strong enough/practiced enough to not be bothered by the weight.

Doubt it's shot count for most hunting situations....aren't many times you'll have 50-100 critters that need killing in one outing.

Nice to be able to fill once and hunt all week....or to fill once and plink away a tin of pellets....have enough to finish a match/steel game session without having to refill...or (my excuse) to have enough shots so everyone at a family gathering can have a turn.

From a rest with a PCP (or any"recoiless"type),anything that actually holds the weight steady for you (bags/bi pod/crossed sticks/bench) pretty much evens out the accuracy....although even there,does seem like heavier helps.

With a recoiling springer,I'll take a mild tuned heavier rifle over a cranked up lite weight...mass is a good damper.

Likely it's shooter preference....no real accounting for that other than they like it....and likely they do better more becasue they like than they'ddo with a rifle they didn't really like.

[fwbsport]

I remember the first time I saw pictures and videos of guys in England hunting rabbits and such with their rifles.  They have Huntsmans (daystate) and barrel breakers and sidelevers and such--except for pneumatic "pump ups" which are light as a feather anyway (Crossman, Benjamin, Sheridan--they don't use these for precision in hunting).

If they have a large rifle like an HW80 over there the rifle is over the limit--but so is the Huntsman, which I've seen over there in use on pigeons.

The advantage they have over there is the suppressor--they use those too!  Over here it used to be a dangerous thing to even ask where to buy a suppressor!

I guess I think the question is a bit off to me.  I always thought Englanders were serious about hunting?  Use enough gun and use it well with enough accuracy?

[Pie]

I am in the UK and use a sub 12 air rifle, this question has never occurred to me but reading this made me think - a bit.  My thoughts are:
If someone were to design a rifle specifically for sub 12 power, what would it look like,  our bodies are the same as yours so dimensions wouldn't be much different.  They could be lighter built but with a springer, this could make it less accurate or harder to shoot, with a PCP - they are pretty light anyway so you would just be making pointless compromises for no real gain.

Is there enough demand for them to make it worthwhile for manufacturers to design a second range of rifles? 

Would people want to buy a 'baby' gun or a de-tuned mans gun?   

Stopping only to re-fill mags, I can shoot non stop for nearly an hour and a half before needing a re-fill.  If I dont go to the range I can go hunting once a week for 6 moths or more without needing a re-fill.  I use a pump, so this is good

I would of course prefer to have more power

[Ribbonstone]

Just how small.lite could we make a 6 foot pound rifle for those limited to that power level? ....would the minimum size even be shootable by adults,or just a cute miniature?