Did Sheridan just copy Benjamin’s valves in the Streak?

[45flint]

They look incidental and use the same tool?

[Goose]

Form follows function, so some similarity is to be expected.  I've been into enough pressure regulators to notice the same thing among the different brands.  What works and is easy to maufacture is what will make it to market.

Be safe,

J~

[45flint]

Form follows function, so some similarity is to be expected.  I've been into enough pressure regulators to notice the same thing among the different brands.  What works and is easy to maufacture is what will make it to market.

Be safe,

J~

“Some Similarity”?   It’s seems an exact copy to me?   Crosman valves look very different from these, but function similarly. 

[Nvreloader]

Steve

Thanks for the photo's,
came in handy, as I just pulled the valve out of both my Dan's,

Question for you,
Can you measure the exhaust hole diameter in the valves?

Mine look smaller that those you show, they are .116" diameter on both, 4 holes radical around the valve.

Thanks,
Don

[eeler1]

Funny you mention it.  Just the other day, I pulled the valving out of a very early 1950’s silver streak.  And found a single port exhaust valve just like the one in your bottom pic.  Had the little bump thingy on the side and all.  The inside of the tube had the notch for the bump.  First Dan I’ve seen like that.  I didn’t know that Sheridan copied the Benjamin to that detail.  Kinda blew me away.  Still had the synthetic inner seal, instead of lead, though.  Seal under the nut was lead.

[45flint]

Funny you mention it.  Just the other day, I pulled the valving out of a very early 1950’s silver streak.  And found a single port exhaust valve just like the one in your bottom pic.  Had the little bump thingy on the side and all.  The inside of the tube had the notch for the bump.  First Dan I’ve seen like that.  I didn’t know that Sheridan copied the Benjamin to that detail.  Kinda blew me away.  Still had the synthetic inner seal, instead of lead, though.  Seal under the nut was lead.

The early one would be the ones to compare as there was some evolution over all those years. (Single port to grove) My pics were off the internet, my Benjamin/Sheridan rifle is a 1990’s Crosman cartridge valve.  I am sure the above pics were probably from different eras.  If the early 50’s Sheridan had the single port and the notch then it did start out as a direct copy? 

[avator]

Didn't I recently read a post about a paper trail of a gun leading to Sheridan? Would this not imply that they were, at least, looking at the competition?

Doesn't really matter to me, Sheridan is still at the top of my vintage pumper list.

[RBQChicken]

Could it be that the valves were made by a third party and both Benjamin and Sheridan sourced their valves from them?

[TerryM]

  It's obvious to me the Sheridan C was a copy, a rather refined one with a few exclusive perks, of the Benjamin of the day.

[Rabbit\Squirrel Killer]

Funny you mention it.  Just the other day, I pulled the valving out of a very early 1950’s silver streak.  And found a single port exhaust valve just like the one in your bottom pic.  Had the little bump thingy on the side and all.  The inside of the tube had the notch for the bump.  First Dan I’ve seen like that.  I didn’t know that Sheridan copied the Benjamin to that detail.  Kinda blew me away.  Still had the synthetic inner seal, instead of lead, though.  Seal under the nut was lead.

The early one would be the ones to compare as there was some evolution over all those years. (Single port to grove) My pics were off the internet, my Benjamin/Sheridan rifle is a 1990’s Crosman cartridge valve.  I am sure the above pics were probably from different eras.  If the early 50’s Sheridan had the single port and the notch then it did start out as a direct copy?

I agree and Benjamin purchased Sheridan in 1977 and Crosman purchased Benjamin/Sheridan in 1992 so depending on the year. I am sure the used some of the same parts and marketing under different brands was not patent infringement for a subsidiary of the Parent company. I have also read that Benjamin did not have their own engineers and that Sheridan did.

also "No engineering drawings have ever surfaced for Benjamin. Probably should have asked Ray Katt about this when I had the chance." DTFletcher

[45flint]

Funny you mention it.  Just the other day, I pulled the valving out of a very early 1950’s silver streak.  And found a single port exhaust valve just like the one in your bottom pic.  Had the little bump thingy on the side and all.  The inside of the tube had the notch for the bump.  First Dan I’ve seen like that.  I didn’t know that Sheridan copied the Benjamin to that detail.  Kinda blew me away.  Still had the synthetic inner seal, instead of lead, though.  Seal under the nut was lead.

The early one would be the ones to compare as there was some evolution over all those years. (Single port to grove) My pics were off the internet, my Benjamin/Sheridan rifle is a 1990’s Crosman cartridge valve.  I am sure the above pics were probably from different eras.  If the early 50’s Sheridan had the single port and the notch then it did start out as a direct copy?

I agree and Benjamin purchased Sheridan in 1977 and Crosman purchased Benjamin/Sheridan in 1992 so depending on the year. I am sure the used some of the same parts and marketing under different brands was not patent infringement for a subsidiary of the Parent company. I have also read that Benjamin did not have their own engineers and that Sheridan did.

also "No engineering drawings have ever surfaced for Benjamin. Probably should have asked Ray Katt about this when I had the chance." DTFletcher

I was really talking about the inception of the Streak in 1949.  Benjamin didn’t buy Sheridan till 1977 so they were direct competitors for many years.  It seems to me Sheridan was looking for a cheaper rifle that would finally sell and be successful.  The Crosman 101 was dated and too expensive to produce at that point, Crosman’s engineers was busy replacing it at the same timeframe.  Benjamin’s design was in the right price range and proven so they copied it?  In 1950’s it appears they were identical even down to the slot and numb to line up the exhaust port per above?

They put the rifle into a modern sleek frame - stock.  The consumer would have no idea what was inside but I did Benjamin did?  Bet that made for some interesting conversation around the table in St. Louis?

[eeler1]

 I’ve always wondered if Sheridans commitment to the.20 cal was an accommodation with Benjamin.  What might the response have been if they had gone.177 and .22?

[bantam5s]

I’ve always wondered if Sheridans commitment to the.20 cal was an accommodation with Benjamin.  What might the response have been if they had gone.177 and .22?

That's kind of what I was thinking.
" it's fine, your more expensive special caliber guns won't effect us much ".

It reminds me of the issue between the Plumb tool company and the Plomb tool company ( often read as PLVMB ) that would later change it's name to PROTO.

Some name confusion with consumers led Plumb to take Plomb to court in 1921 where it was ruled that as long as Plomb stayed in their lane ( mostly making mechanics tools , while Plumb made axes and hammers ) everything was fine.

[45flint]

I’ve always wondered if Sheridans commitment to the.20 cal was an accommodation with Benjamin.  What might the response have been if they had gone.177 and .22?

That’s a fascinating thought!  I never really thought about the SuperGrade being 22?  I just assumed any patents Benjamin had expired by then?  But your point is a interesting one, the caliber does make it arguably a different gun?  Plus now much needed profits from pellet sales would have to come to them. This rifle was probably their last chance to turn a profit and this gave them the most $ flowing their way. 

[TerryM]

  How long were the Sheridan A and B in production prior to  the C model?  A couple of years?  They were a different animal entirely from the Benjamin.

[45flint]

  How long were the Sheridan A and B in production prior to  the C model?  A couple of years?  They were a different animal entirely from the Benjamin.

1948-1953.  Yes they were a totally new design by Sheridan.  Probably happens more than we think: you make the absolute best product you can but don’t factor in whether people will be willing to pay for it?  It’s why it’s such a collector piece.  Market reality made them take an existing common design and try to make it with as much quality as they could?

[Rabbit\Squirrel Killer]

I found this on the net a couple of years back not sure where I saw it?(not sure of exactly when) Bold emphasis by me. There was no copywrite I saw so here it is.

 "A Brief History of the Sheridan Air Rifle
By Andrew Leung
Almost everyone must have said the words: "boy, I can build it better than this!" This was a response typical of people who after discovering that mass-produced products did not live up to the expectation you have after spending your hard earned money on. Well, this was pretty much how Sheridan came to be. Ed Wackerhagen, dissatisfied with a pellet gun used by his son Philip set out to build one of the finest airguns in history. The design was to incorporate the philosophy: "performance is the some total of many small functions whos combined result must spell'Bulls-eye'." This gun was to fill the gap between the "BB" gun and the .22. It was to be called the Super Grade, a SHERIDAN Super Grade (named after Civil War's General Philip Sheridan, for which his son Philip was named after). A partnership with I.R. "Bob" Kraus and with a successful prototype in mid-1944, and production beginning in March 1947, the Model A Super Grade was born.
Part 1: the Rifles
Model A (1947-1953) Total Production: 2130 Velocity: Variable to 700 fps With a large cast and machined aluminum reciever, bronzed barrel and pump tube, walnut stock with Monte Carlo cheek-piece, ball-type valve mechanism, adjustable trigger, and peep sight, you could get one for $56.50. The price (at that time) gave the gun its slow sales.
Model B (1948-1951) Total Production: 1050 Velocity: Variable to 700 fps Using the same gun, but without the cheek-piece, a revision of soldered ventilated rib type barrel, less expensive paint finish and various slight changes it was to be a cheaper alternative to the slow selling Model A. Dubbed "Sporter" the price was $35 when introduced, $42.50 when production stopped.
Model C (1949-1976, 1976-1992, 1992-present) Velocity: to 700 fps Even less expensive construction and "Manchilcher" styling, finally Sheridan became profitable. Though "cheap" when compared to the Super and Sporter Grade, it still used walnut stocks, aluminum receiver, bronze barrel and pump tube, but a different valve mechanism. Patterned after the Benjamins, it was $19.95 when introduced. It was dubbed the "Streaks" with the Silver Streak being first with its nickle finish, followed by Blue Streak a few months after. This is the gun when people think of Sheridan, their longest production gun ever. There are three time lines to the Model C: first being owned exclusively by Sheridan, then Benjamin acquired it, and finally Crosman. Though being acquired by Benjamin and then Crosman, the Streaks still remains (somewhat) intact today. Early Streaks incorporated a shotgun styled "Hold-down" safety (till 1963), then the "Rocker" safety survived till 1992 with the "Push-pull" safety used today. The Streaks which had the "Rocker" safety is by far the most common of the Sheridan model. Though in terms of collecting, the earlier "Hold-down" is now becoming more scarce, if you want one in good condition.
Model F (1975-1976, 1976-1992, 1992-present) Velocity: 515 fps The first CO2 gun made by Sheridan. Similar to the Model C in design , it used 12-12.5g CO2 "powerlets". Available in both nickle and blue finish, the earlier production units had a large solid aluminum rod which filled the action tube with a ligher small diameter steel rod following a few months after and is still used today. This was the only model which a small quantity were furnished with maple or ash stocks made from an outside supplier. It was dropped quickly due to poor quality control.
 
Sources:
1.   US Airgun magazine: The Sheridan Story by Ted Osborn, Vol III #2

2.   45 years of Sheridan Airguns by Ted Osborn

3.   Know Your Sheridan Rifles and Pistol by Ronald E. Elbe

4.   Airgun Digest 2nd edition by Jess I. Galan

5.   Shooter's Bible (various editions)

6.   Gun Digest (various editons)"