215 FPE for a coon or a muskrat

[Hotled]

That a little insane isn’t it?
Texas laws ....

[Bullfrog]

Yes. The process by which airguns became legal in Texas was a fiasco. You ought to be able to find some archived posts about it here. Texas had basically moved to adopt Florida’s  permissive airgun rules. Then a well connected rancher, a vocal minority of (IMHO) snobbish airgunners, and possibly a company from the airgun industry, all lobbied to jack the requirements higher and the current rules are an attempted compromise.

[Hotled]

Yes. The process by which airguns became legal in Texas was a fiasco. You ought to be able to find some archived posts about it here. Texas had basically moved to adopt Florida’s  permissive airgun rules. Then a well connected rancher, a vocal minority of (IMHO) snobbish airgunners, and possibly a company from the airgun industry, all lobbied to jack the requirements higher and the current rules are an attempted compromise.

Been search an hour, no luck yet.

[Blowpipe Sam]

I never shot a coon or a muskrat when I lived in Texas.  In those days air rifles were legal to use on public small game tracts along with .22 rimfires shooting BB or CB caps.  I'm trying to think of a commercial .22lr cartridge that produces 215 fpe?

[Rabbit\Squirrel Killer]

I never shot a coon or a muskrat when I lived in Texas.  In those days air rifles were legal to use on public small game tracts along with .22 rimfires shooting BB or CB caps.  I'm trying to think of a commercial .22lr cartridge that produces 215 fpe?

39gr at 1576fps = 215.146fpe

[Nomadic Pirate]

Well, that's gonna limit your airgunning   LOL

[Rabbit\Squirrel Killer]

Well, that's gonna limit your airgunning   LOL

Yep, maybe pin them down with near misses, while someone gets in position to hit them in the head with a brick. 

[only1harry]

Wow.  So you need 60% more power than the average rimfire 22LR HV to hunt small game with airguns?  Has 22LR been outlawed in TX for hunting now?  Even the CCI Stinger @ 1,640fps does not get 215fpe.  What genius came up with that number?  Anyone can take the biggest raccoons using a mid-high power Springer (15 to 24 FPE) with a head shot, and many have, including myself and hundreds of others here over the years (don't even need a PCP).   

Dan, I am not aware of a Hyper-velocity 39gr in 22LR, or any 22LR making 215fpe.  Who produces this 22LR 39gr round?  Or where you just showing what it takes to reach 215fpe?  I am pretty sure you 'd need to upgrade to 22 WMR or 17 HMR to produce that much kinetic energy.

[Rabbit\Squirrel Killer]

Wow.  So you need 60% more power than the average rimfire 22LR HV to hunt small game with airguns?  Has 22LR been outlawed in TX for hunting now?  Even the CCI Stinger @ 1,640fps does not get 215fpe.  What genius came up with that number?  Anyone can take the biggest raccoons using a mid-high power Springer (15 to 24 FPE) with a head shot, and many have, including myself and hundreds of others here over the years (don't even need a PCP).   

Dan, I am not aware of a Hyper-velocity 39gr in 22LR, or any 22LR making 215fpe.  Who produces this 22LR 39gr round?  Or where you just showing what it takes to reach 215fpe?  I am pretty sure you 'd need to upgrade to 22 WMR or 17 HMR to produce that much kinetic energy.

I am not aware of any either, I was just posting the kind of specs it would need!

[Ronni]

Fun fact: By german law the minimum energy required to take down game (that includes hogs) is 737FPE at 100 meters. (E100 = 1000 Joule)

A friend of mine is a hunter in my local area. He got his CZ bolt action in .22 hornet (approx 700FPE at the muzzle) for the "Sunday Rabbit"

Maybe his wife prefers the rabbits legs....

[Bullfrog]

Wow.  So you need 60% more power than the average rimfire 22LR HV to hunt small game with airguns?  Has 22LR been outlawed in TX for hunting now?  Even the CCI Stinger @ 1,640fps does not get 215fpe.  What genius came up with that number?  Anyone can take the biggest raccoons using a mid-high power Springer (15 to 24 FPE) with a head shot, and many have, including myself and hundreds of others here over the years (don't even need a PCP).   

Dan, I am not aware of a Hyper-velocity 39gr in 22LR, or any 22LR making 215fpe.  Who produces this 22LR 39gr round?  Or where you just showing what it takes to reach 215fpe?  I am pretty sure you 'd need to upgrade to 22 WMR or 17 HMR to produce that much kinetic energy.

What basically happened is that Texas came up with a minimum FPE for deer and then that was applied across the board to varmints as well. All stemming from some people, including air gunners, trying to roadblock use of .30 calibers for deer or otherwise not being happy about airgun deer hunting at all. And them trying to whisper it all to a commission of non-airgunner rulemakers. The cloud that the anti-.30 and anti-deer hunting airgunners kicked up scared the commissioners so bad that one of them wanted to scrap the entire endeavor so minimum FPE requirements akin to a .22 mag were adopted as a compromise measure to keep air-gunning on the table.

This is why I get aggravated with the self-righteous types when it comes to FPE and caliber questions for airgun hunting. I’m all for people having differing opinions. But when the FPE/caliber Gestapo starts a whispering campaign its mucks things up for all airgun hunters that goes beyond hunting one particular species. 

[only1harry]

Wow.  So you need 60% more power than the average rimfire 22LR HV to hunt small game with airguns?  Has 22LR been outlawed in TX for hunting now?  Even the CCI Stinger @ 1,640fps does not get 215fpe.  What genius came up with that number?  Anyone can take the biggest raccoons using a mid-high power Springer (15 to 24 FPE) with a head shot, and many have, including myself and hundreds of others here over the years (don't even need a PCP).   

Dan, I am not aware of a Hyper-velocity 39gr in 22LR, or any 22LR making 215fpe.  Who produces this 22LR 39gr round?  Or where you just showing what it takes to reach 215fpe?  I am pretty sure you 'd need to upgrade to 22 WMR or 17 HMR to produce that much kinetic energy.

What basically happened is that Texas came up with a minimum FPE for deer and then that was applied across the board to varmints as well. All stemming from some people, including air gunners, trying to roadblock use of .30 calibers for deer or otherwise not being happy about airgun deer hunting at all. And them trying to whisper it all to a commission of non-airgunner rulemakers. The cloud that the anti-.30 and anti-deer hunting airgunners kicked up scared the commissioners so bad that one of them wanted to scrap the entire endeavor so minimum FPE requirements akin to a .22 mag were adopted as a compromise measure to keep air-gunning on the table.

This is why I get aggravated with the self-righteous types when it comes to FPE and caliber questions for airgun hunting. I’m all for people having differing opinions. But when the FPE/caliber Gestapo starts a whispering campaign its mucks things up for all airgun hunters that goes beyond hunting one particular species. 

I remember that thread now from a couple of years ago.  Thanks for shaking the memories loose in my brain

So Texas has probably become the only state to impose their big game airgun regulations to small game 

[Hotled]

I want to know what air gun manufacturer did this or had a hand in it, I’m betting the office is in Dallas Ft Worth.

[Bullfrog]

I want to know what air gun manufacturer did this or had a hand in it, I’m betting the office is in Dallas Ft Worth.

According to my sources, it was NOT Airforce and in fact Airforce was vocal about leaving the original permissive rule in place.

[HunterWhite]

I hope that Thurmond of T3P Ranch can respond to this, he followed it closely and actually  went to the hearings.

It seems like it was just an attempt to shoe-horn airguns into existing legislation without too much bother. Now we add airguns to firearms, black powder, archery and crossbows.
The existing rules for game animals was simply stated as "any centerfire". So something like a 32-20 Winchester, also known as .32 WCF (Winchester center fire) could be used. The 32-20 is about 215 FPE (292 joules)
I think that rule was made long ago to prevent 22LR from being used for deer.

Keep in mind that legislators, and the interns who actually draft the language of the law may have little to no knowledge of hunting.

I recall that there was a hunt organized to demonstrate the effectiveness of airguns by hunting pigs, which are considered  pest animals. Someone came with a 30 caliber springer that only wounded a pig and that only angered the lawmaker.

Many states went with the "40-400" rule. That is 40 caliber (10mm) and 400 FPE (542 joules). At the time that this was being discussed the only airgun that you could actually buy was the AirForce Texan. There were rumors of the Umarex Hammer, but it was not available to purchase.
 
All in all, I think that the lawmakers bent over backward to legitimize airgun hunting. I am pretty sure that they intend to amend this legislation when more data is available.

Hunter

[Bullfrog]

I hope that Thurmond of T3P Ranch can respond to this, he followed it closely and actually  went to the hearings.

It seems like it was just an attempt to shoe-horn airguns into existing legislation without too much bother. Now we add airguns to firearms, black powder, archery and crossbows.
The existing rules for game animals was simply stated as "any centerfire". So something like a 32-20 Winchester, also known as .32 WCF (Winchester center fire) could be used. The 32-20 is about 215 FPE (292 joules)
I think that rule was made long ago to prevent 22LR from being used for deer.

Keep in mind that legislators, and the interns who actually draft the language of the law may have little to no knowledge of hunting.

I recall that there was a hunt organized to demonstrate the effectiveness of airguns by hunting pigs, which are considered  pest animals. Someone came with a 30 caliber springer that only wounded a pig and that only angered the lawmaker.

No, with respect, that isn’t what happened at all. I remember the testimony. There was no .30 springer involved that was mentioned. Supposedly some rancher hosted a PCP hog hunt with all manner of big bores including .45s and described all sorts of wounded pig carn-agewith a range of guns we would all recognize as being adequate if not overkill for hogs. In listening to the testimony, it was likely exaggerated to the point of being fabricated. The witness was the rancher’s guide and he sounded as sleezy as he could be. They obviously just had an anti-airgun agenda, and none of it had to do with deer anyhow or would have been effected by the change in regulations because hogs were already fully open to airguns and the new regs didn’t change how hogs could be hunted.

Let me put it this way. As having over a decade’s experience as a trial attorney and after have won many dozens of jury trials, if that ranch hand would have been my star witness for trial, I would have dumped the case. He presented as a total sleezebag and any experienced airgun hog hunter on this forum who listened to his testimony would have found it to be a load a bunk. The rancher really sounded like Boss Hog and the guide like Rosco. It was Southern good’ol boy politics at its worst.

But the real issue wasn’t just some rich rancher who had the back-door ear of one of the commissioners. You had a minority of airguns writing and calling in saying “dang right that ain’t enough gun for deer hunting.” And so it gave the anti-airgunners something to latch on to. That’s my biggest beef with how it played out.

[Bullfrog]

All of that being said, I’m not sure that the 215fpe rule applies to furbearers in Texas. As I look at the Texas administrative code, it looks like the rule is that an airgun used to harvest furbearers must be .30 or larger. I don’t see where the FPE rule applies.

I presume coons and muskrats are furbearers and not game animals in Texas? The 215fpe rule applies to game animals. Such as turkeys (where it is demonstrated to be ridiculous).

No such caliber rules apply to hunting furbearers in Texas with firearms. The .30 rule was written specifically for airguns. So it cannot be said to be a leftover of an earlier rule. 

[HunterWhite]

Okay,  yes you are right Travis, it was a rancher, not a lawmaker that sponsored the hunt. Hogs were the target because they are varmints, and could be legally taken with airguns. It's been a while. I do recall that the testimony was cheesey.
I am still curious about the input from AirForce. I vaguely remember that there was someone representing AirForce present, but I don't know the thrust of their testimony.
I should pay attention.
Do you have any knowledge of the AF stance?

Hunter

[Nomadic Pirate]

I hope that Thurmond of T3P Ranch can respond to this, he followed it closely and actually  went to the hearings.

It seems like it was just an attempt to shoe-horn airguns into existing legislation without too much bother. Now we add airguns to firearms, black powder, archery and crossbows.
The existing rules for game animals was simply stated as "any centerfire". So something like a 32-20 Winchester, also known as .32 WCF (Winchester center fire) could be used. The 32-20 is about 215 FPE (292 joules)
I think that rule was made long ago to prevent 22LR from being used for deer.

Keep in mind that legislators, and the interns who actually draft the language of the law may have little to no knowledge of hunting.

I recall that there was a hunt organized to demonstrate the effectiveness of airguns by hunting pigs, which are considered  pest animals. Someone came with a 30 caliber springer that only wounded a pig and that only angered the lawmaker.

No, with respect, that isn’t what happened at all. I remember the testimony. There was no .30 springer involved that was mentioned. Supposedly some rancher hosted a PCP hog hunt with all manner of big bores including .45s and described all sorts of wounded pig carn-agewith a range of guns we would all recognize as being adequate if not overkill for hogs. In listening to the testimony, it was likely exaggerated to the point of being fabricated. The witness was the rancher’s guide and he sounded as sleezy as he could be. They obviously just had an anti-airgun agenda, and none of it had to do with deer anyhow or would have been effected by the change in regulations because hogs were already fully open to airguns and the new regs didn’t change how hogs could be hunted.

Let me put it this way. As having over a decade’s experience as a trial attorney and after have won many dozens of jury trials, if that ranch hand would have been my star witness for trial, I would have dumped the case. He presented as a total sleezebag and any experienced airgun hog hunter on this forum who listened to his testimony would have found it to be a load a bunk. The rancher really sounded like Boss Hog and the guide like Rosco. It was Southern good’ol boy politics at its worst.

But the real issue wasn’t just some rich rancher who had the back-door ear of one of the commissioners. You had a minority of airguns writing and calling in saying “dang right that ain’t enough gun for deer hunting.” And so it gave the anti-airgunners something to latch on to. That’s my biggest beef with how it played out.

You can tell even on forums that there's airgunners that just because they view airgunning as a .17 .22 only thing and know nothing of how efficient actual bigger bores are just keep trying put them down out of basically pure ignorance.

[T3PRanch]

I hope that Thurmond of T3P Ranch can respond to this, he followed it closely and actually  went to the hearings.

It seems like it was just an attempt to shoe-horn airguns into existing legislation without too much bother. Now we add airguns to firearms, black powder, archery and crossbows.
The existing rules for game animals was simply stated as "any centerfire". So something like a 32-20 Winchester, also known as .32 WCF (Winchester center fire) could be used. The 32-20 is about 215 FPE (292 joules)
I think that rule was made long ago to prevent 22LR from being used for deer.

Keep in mind that legislators, and the interns who actually draft the language of the law may have little to no knowledge of hunting.

I recall that there was a hunt organized to demonstrate the effectiveness of airguns by hunting pigs, which are considered  pest animals. Someone came with a 30 caliber springer that only wounded a pig and that only angered the lawmaker.

No, with respect, that isn’t what happened at all. I remember the testimony. There was no .30 springer involved that was mentioned. Supposedly some rancher hosted a PCP hog hunt with all manner of big bores including .45s and described all sorts of wounded pig carn-agewith a range of guns we would all recognize as being adequate if not overkill for hogs. In listening to the testimony, it was likely exaggerated to the point of being fabricated. The witness was the rancher’s guide and he sounded as sleezy as he could be. They obviously just had an anti-airgun agenda, and none of it had to do with deer anyhow or would have been effected by the change in regulations because hogs were already fully open to airguns and the new regs didn’t change how hogs could be hunted.

Let me put it this way. As having over a decade’s experience as a trial attorney and after have won many dozens of jury trials, if that ranch hand would have been my star witness for trial, I would have dumped the case. He presented as a total sleezebag and any experienced airgun hog hunter on this forum who listened to his testimony would have found it to be a load a bunk. The rancher really sounded like Boss Hog and the guide like Rosco. It was Southern good’ol boy politics at its worst.

But the real issue wasn’t just some rich rancher who had the back-door ear of one of the commissioners. You had a minority of airguns writing and calling in saying “dang right that ain’t enough gun for deer hunting.” And so it gave the anti-airgunners something to latch on to. That’s my biggest beef with how it played out.

Travis nailed it on the nose. It was a bunch of politics started over a hunt of non-game pest animals aka feral hogs by out of state hunters and had no bearing whatsoever on game animals. The Hammer crowd was at the meeting too talking about killing Cape Buffalo with the mighty hammer. Psssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhht! It was a basic dog and pony show but at least we got the rule reinstated after the "famous or is that infamous HOG TRAPPER" killed it AFTER it had passed the first time.