.224 Barrel Blank + Ammo Recommendations?

[mtnGhost]

Greetings!

I have tinkered around a bit this past few months with my 22 cal Taipans. It's been fun experimenting with the valve / hammer systems, upgrading the (horrendous) factory barrel with an adapter that I perfected to run FX liner kits, but I'm at the point where my Veteran is producing great power, and I am anxious to run a larger bore with heavier ammo:

Although I had originally planned to do a .30 conversion, I'm motivated to machine a couple of .224 blanks for this rifle. Beginning with one shorter ~18" in .224 to keep the overall length more compact. I'm not expert in this caliber, so I'm also thinking about ammo / molds that would work well with a barrel of that length in this rifle.

In terms of power, with my custom valve / hammer / porting / plenum extensions, when I ran 31.2gr .217 slugs over my chrono, I see 72FPE with my reg just south of 150bar. I have my 500mm FX kit in there now, producing 64FPE with 30gr with the current tune.

My goal is at least 75FPE with an 18" .224 using 34-40gr. I'm not concerned with coming up short on power, I just need some recommendations on a barrel + projectile combination that would likely work for this configuration.

Does anyone have any recommendations?

Thanks!

[rkr]

For that power I'd be very tempted to copy subsonic .22lr. Use Lyman's 225438 bullets sized down a bit and get a Redmans .22lr liner from Brownells. The 225438 is the same shape as .22 lr bullets and should be around 40 grains sized, Redman's liner is said to be same diameter as FX liners and they are very reasonably priced. Sizing system with dies you can change is available from NOE.

For true .224 I would suggest bullets in 47 grain to 55 grain range (like Arsenal 225420) and 12.7" or 12" twist barrel but then you need around 90-100 fpe to make it work.

[Sbak]

If I were you I would put in a TJ's .218bore .222 Grove 1:16 twist and shoot the NOE 225-39

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/224/225-39-fn-b2/225-39-fn-b2-3-cavity-gc

My only concern is that it is a pretty specific combination, there won't be many great opportunities for other bullets if you go that route. But that one combination should put a smile on your face

[UnderPressure]

Are you current running slug liner A with the 1 in 16" twist?



If so the only thing you would gain by going .222/.223 or .224 1 in 16" twist is the ability to run different diameter bullets.

Have you tried looking for heavier .217 bullets?

Griffin airgun ammo has boat tail in .217 up to 44 grains (I am concerned, however, these would need more than 1 in 16" twist because of the boat tail) and Mr. Hollow point has flat base in 38 grain and 46 grain .217 according to an image search.

[mtnGhost]

Are you current running slug liner A with the 1 in 16" twist?

If so the only thing you would gain by going .222/.223 or .224 1 in 16" twist is the ability to run different diameter bullets.

Have you tried looking for heavier .217 bullets?

Griffin airgun ammo has boat tail in .217 up to 44 grains (I am concerned, however, these would need more than 1 in 16" twist because of the boat tail) and Mr. Hollow point has flat base in 38 grain and 46 grain .217 according to an image search.

Yeah, I'm currently running the 1:16 slug liners (one of the three is 1:15.5"). I also have the pellet liners, but the twist seems not so great for anything but lighter slugs at warp speed. Seeing way too much wind drift past 140-150 with the lighter ammo, so I can't use them here with the constant presence of wind.

Now worth mentioning - I had really, really good results with Dale's 30gr Varmint Knockers with the 600 & 700mm liners late last year. So much so, that I had placed a large order for more from him. I don't know what happened, but the vast majority of them arrived "squished" / deformed - maybe from the heat and being packed in together so densely (soft Corbin lead). Whatever the case, they were damaged and would need to be re-swaged.

Interesting that you mentioned Griffin though, I ordered some FBs and BTs earlier in the week to test out. This is my last Hail Mary before I go all in with the .224 barrel project, My FX liner bores are fairly tight, .2170 is perfect for my 500mm and 600mm slug liners, and both are polished already to my satisfaction.

I also tried sizing some MP cast down for them, but when I used the right bushing to get them where I needed them, the barrel bands were stripped off and they shot terribly.

There doesn't seem to be much else for .217 that I can find, heavy enough for my needs. I will eventually get some Corbin dies and have more time to experiment, but I can't go that route right now. I'm fine paying for ammo for these FX barrels if they're compatible, but there seems to be better options for casting dies if I went with a larger diameter.

[mtnGhost]

If I were you I would put in a TJ's .218bore .222 Grove 1:16 twist and shoot the NOE 225-39

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/224/225-39-fn-b2/225-39-fn-b2-3-cavity-gc

My only concern is that it is a pretty specific combination, there won't be many great opportunities for other bullets if you go that route. But that one combination should put a smile on your face

Thanks! I would not be opposed to that I was just chatting with them about a custom .30, so I might do that if the combination works well. BC on the diagram seems close to what I was looking for (shooting for ~0.14 for that weight range).

For that power I'd be very tempted to copy subsonic .22lr. Use Lyman's 225438 bullets sized down a bit and get a Redmans .22lr liner from Brownells. The 225438 is the same shape as .22 lr bullets and should be around 40 grains sized, Redman's liner is said to be same diameter as FX liners and they are very reasonably priced. Sizing system with dies you can change is available from NOE.

For true .224 I would suggest bullets in 47 grain to 55 grain range (like Arsenal 225420) and 12.7" or 12" twist barrel but then you need around 90-100 fpe to make it work.

Hmmm.. RE: true .224 - I could see hitting 90FPE with a long barrel. The hammer / valve system that I made right now could be adequate, but I'm working on another design that would provide better support for 26-30". I have doubts that I would be able to get there with an 18" bbl (keeping it regulated).

I have NOE sizing dies and bushings up to .220 (I think), but I would love to test out that Redmans liner with the 225438. 40gr would be pretty close to ideal!


Any thoughts on Green Mountain at 18"?

[mtnGhost]

Whoops! I meant the barrel OD should be 15mm, not 14mm ..  too much time around these FX shrouds I guess LOL

[PikeP]

Hmm. I like this game...

27" barrel, full bore ported .22" regulated at 2800 psi with around 90~ cc's of plenum will easily crack 100 fpe shooting anything between 48 and 55 gr.

[rkr]

Hmm. I like this game...

27" barrel, full bore ported .22" regulated at 2800 psi with around 90~ cc's of plenum will easily crack 100 fpe shooting anything between 48 and 55 gr.

I did that with 24" barrel and 180 bar but it was not regulated.

[mtnGhost]

Hmm. I like this game...

27" barrel, full bore ported .22" regulated at 2800 psi with around 90~ cc's of plenum will easily crack 100 fpe shooting anything between 48 and 55 gr.

68FPE right now with these Griffin 33gr FBs that I received yesterday.  I'm running the Vet reconfigured with my 500mm FX (sleeved) pellet liner with one of my custom valves, a single 20cc plenum extension (~60cc total with the Huma spacer), and I turned up the reg to around 165bar.

I wanted to drive out to test these 33's and 29 FBs (that I ordered ahead of my larger BT/ FB order), but it was ^*%$#@ serious rain this morning, and it didn't let up until too late in the day. I am hoping that this stuff shoots well for me with either the pellet or slug liner. I am absolutely hooked on the more compact profile with the shorter barrel installed!

Put a LOT of work into this rifle. I'm very pleased with the power output that I have squeezed from it thus far, but it is totally useless to me without heavier, compatible ammo. My 22 cal Leshiy can reach out as far with the 20.2gr NSAs as this rifle with 25gr, so if these Griffins do not get me an additional 100m, then I'm all in with plan B.

[PikeP]

500mm is quite the inhibitor, trust me I know. (both from experience and knowledge)

As you said its hard to give up on the compactness that comes with shorter barrels. Add on a decent moderator to any 600/700 mm barrel and then you're well into 40"+ for most rifle.

Hopefully plan A works well for you, but I think plan B is better if you already have a leshiy shooting 20 gr NSA's well

[mtnGhost]

500mm is quite the inhibitor, trust me I know. (both from experience and knowledge)

As you said its hard to give up on the compactness that comes with shorter barrels. Add on a decent moderator to any 600/700 mm barrel and then you're well into 40"+ for most rifle.

Hopefully plan A works well for you, but I think plan B is better if you already have a leshiy shooting 20 gr NSA's well

I "think" the pellet liner will do fairly well with at least the 33gr FBs, but I know that the slug liner definitely liked the 33gr NSAs, and 28gr + 30gr Varmint Knockers that I had which were actually shootable. Obtaining more "quality" VKs was the ongoing problem that I had, if I had a supply of well made 30gr - I probably wouldn't have considered .224.

If all of the Griffin ammo looks like what I got, and if it shoots as well as it looks - I'd have no problem buying (a lot) more lol .. need to close this chapter so I can finish the other unfinished chapters on my bench 

Concerns with this 500mm pellet liner - It's new. Never shot anything through it yet. I polished it like all my other FX liners, but chamber was reamed deep and the throat / leade seems like it's 0.5-1 degree or something (I have a decent bore scope). Those 29gr barely hit the lands with my Taipan probe. The 33's seat well. The bore is much tighter than my 500mm slug liner, l I'm bringing them both since it doesn't take but a few minutes to swap them out.

[Lion]

..........  My goal is at least 75FPE with an 18" .224 using 34-40gr. I'm not concerned with coming up short on power, I just need some recommendations on a barrel + projectile combination that would likely work for this configuration........

Is the 40 grains heel base from Old West Bullet Moulds an option?
https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/products/22-long-rifle-40-grain-heel-bullet-double-cavity-mould

[mtnGhost]

..........  My goal is at least 75FPE with an 18" .224 using 34-40gr. I'm not concerned with coming up short on power, I just need some recommendations on a barrel + projectile combination that would likely work for this configuration........

Is the 40 grains heel base from Old West Bullet Moulds an option?
https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/products/22-long-rifle-40-grain-heel-bullet-double-cavity-mould

Those look good! I wonder if that is the bullet a buddy of mine was talking about the other day. Thanks for sharing that!

The free bore in that 500mm FX pellet liner had to have contributed to trash groups yesterday. The 33's did a little better than the 29 & 30gr, but that slug liner did pretty good. It was wet and windier than *(&^ yesterday in the mountains, with storm after storm coming in off the Pacific every 15 minutes as a trough passed through. Even so, I had no problem pegging my 4" steel plate at 200m / 218y and the 8" at 236m / 258y.

Getting around 11-14 shots depending on how I have the hammer setup lol, oh well. Moving forward - testing the boat tails today with the 600mm liner.

[darkcharisma]

You have my attention at 150bars and 72fpe.

what is the plenum size and and barrel port size and barrel length combination for your set up? i might have missed that infor.

oh btw, i hit 96fpe with 55grains, 80cc plenum regulated at 2800psi using 24" TJ .224 1/14 twist.

[mtnGhost]

I had GREAT success yesterday with the Griffin BTs. I tested the 29, 30, 34, 36, and 40 grain - except I used my 600mm FX slug liner for testing. Everything, I mean EVERYTHING but the 30gr shot great.

Unfortunately, I blew through ~40-45% of my ammo dealing with liner tensioning problems! In short, I've learned to hate these things (especially at higher power / reg pressures >=150bar). Quite literally, I observed the difference in 1/2" vs. 2.5" groups just when the "ideal" barrel tension was off. I was also able to reach out as far as 268m at my 6" steel plate, and 285 at my 8" plate yesterday (despite double-digit variable crosswinds). I think the 34-36 are going to be a good compromise for velocity and shot count, BCs were quite similar.

Whether this problem was manifested by several ongoing threads and discussions around FX liners / sleeving / tension, I don't know - but it's no doubt a synchronicity.

You have my attention at 150bars and 72fpe.

what is the plenum size and and barrel port size and barrel length combination for your set up? i might have missed that infor.

oh btw, i hit 96fpe with 55grains, 80cc plenum regulated at 2800psi using 24" TJ .224 1/14 twist.

Phew - That's a lot of energy! Which rifle is that with? I've always wanted to check out one of the Beaumont Grizzly 5,5mm rifles, sold as 100FPE with 43gr.

My Veteran sees the 72FPE with my 600mm FX barrel, ~90cc and my custom valve & hammer setup. I've made one slight modification to the block, but that only yielded me ~5-7 FPE. I'm not open to sharing further details at this time, put in an obsessive amount of work and I need to breakeven on my CNC expenses that I funded out of pocket. The drawback with this power is shot count. I may see 11-12 shots per fill (using the air cylinder capacity from a Standard Vet), but I have plans for improving efficiency.

[darkcharisma]

96fpe with 55grains is nothing to sneeze at. i know peoples been hitting the upper mark of 100fpe. and 100fpe with 43 grains is actually excellent!

i bought marauder parts with RAI tubes and drop block and Cothran balanced valve. i got about 20 shots give or take at lesser fpe with 500cc carbon. thats actually low on shot counts...with no SSG.

I am willing to share anything and everything and expects nothing back. i have also invested in a new lathe but its only under 2k. its worth it to this hobby of mine. i sometimes turn stuff through the night! 

i see 90cc is very usable for .224. i would go with minimum "24 barrel and your custom big valve! who cares about shot counts, get the power down range first then figure the efficiency later. 

[rsterne]

My original .224 cal Hayabusa had a 29" barrel and a 3000 psi fill pressure, unregulated.... It was full bore porting, but has a 0.088" probe, so the smallest porting (the chamber) is the equivalent of 0.206".... The ammo was RWS swaged .22LR equivalent from Holland, at 41.3 gr. because of the slightly larger diameter.... I achieved 106 FPE when maxed out (0.61 FPE/CI), and when backed down to 95 FPE I got a 20 shot string within 4% ES, or 14 shots within a 2% ES, at 1.15 FPE/CI....

Last year I fitted a simplified balanced valve, which allowed me to also fit an SSG.... I also increased the bullet weight to 47.6 gr., using the .224 Bowman.... It now maxes out at 113 FPE at 3000 psi, and backed off to 1000 fps (106 FPE) the efficiency is 1.16 FPE/CI.... It will shoot the original 41.3 gr. bullets at the same 106 FPE, and get over 1.10 FPE/CI doing it.... This shows the efficiency gains possible with an SSG.... I have not tried it with a 55 gr. bullet, but have no doubt it will do 110 FPE (950 fps) while maintaining an efficiency of over 1.10 FPE/CI.... Tethered at 200 bar (2900 psi), it should do that all day long.... 

Bob

[KnifeMaker]

Gino, I'm having very good results with the RedMan liners from Brownell's. Oddly, the 1-20 is still proving the more accurate.
The 1-16 that should have the edge simply is not in the same universe as the 1-20 sadly.


The 1-2- will give me 1/2 to 3/4" at 80 yards with the 31.4 gr decked Arsenal noble and the 39 gr. NOE spire point is half that. Odd!


Both barrels are fully polished and crowned and CF tub wrapped and installed in the Mini Raptor. The 1-20 cf bbl actually out shoots the  tensioned  TJ.s barrel. No doubt the issue is the TJ's is a .214 pellet barrel. GRRRR!!!


I am still temped to try
Shorty's barrel porting. LOL


I tried posting last night, but it would not let me do so. I would like to post a few pic's of targets with the Decked slugs at 31.4 gr's.
 

[KnifeMaker]

Pic's


First pic is target with the  39 grs. Second pic is the even more accurate 39 gr NOE Spire point. The last pic is of the decked .223 and .251 which are other than cal and gr. Identical. .223 @ 31.4, .251 @ 51 gr, and the bottom is the NOE Spire Point @ 39 gr's..


Far left is the same style bullet from the NOE mold of the down sized 257420 decked to 29 gr for the FX liner in HobbyMan2007's gun.

Knife/Mike