Remington VTR 725 .25 cal magnum, anyone?

[3crows]

So this morning I took out a starling at about 30 yards. Cut it in half, devastating impact.

I then decided to inspect the rifle further from the shooting yesterday. I checked the scope mount screws, the turret finger screws and then noted that the pivot screw would sometimes turn when I cocked the rifle. I took the rifle down and cleaned it and then reset all screws.





Products I used:



In addition to the products above I used my Grace (Marlin) screw drivers. These are rifle specific (I have several different sets) but the large flat driver did well here for the pivot screw. These USA made high grade drivers are machined to fit specific screws so as not to damage them. By the way, the action screws at the for end and at the trigger are a #3 Phillips. I use a product called Strip Out (or fine valve grinding compound) and put just a tiny drop into the cross. This allows the driver to engage the screw and will not slip as long as good down pressure is applied.



When going back together, always turn your screws (nuts, bolts etc.) backwards first until you find the threads come home. Then while still applying appropriate down pressure turn the screw in. This prevents cross threading. I cleaned all threads and applied 241 for assembly. On the pivot screw I backed it out to the last thread, cleaned the threads and (!) decided to use 271 here. Hopefully this is a forever screw but if need be I have my ways. Tricks I picked up as an A&P and turbine mechanic, nothing is impossible, it just might cost a lot of money and time which is money (in a shop).

I am glass bedding an A17 Savage right now. If this rifle were the Trail XL (because of the wooden stock) I might bed then daXX thing. But the synthetic stock would be an awful lot of work to bed in my normal methods (though it can be done). The accuracy issues with these spring rifles I am seeing is that they buck around like a wild bronco and rattle everything around with each shot. The action screws MUST be tight but the only way to make sure they never loosen is to bed the rifle. Well, there is that weird hat/U spring in the back of the stock and rear action screw.

James

[3crows]

I have an old inherited (nice) Remington Target Master and a newer Rascal. The Remington has a long 24 inch barrel and the Rascal is 16.5. I enjoy these because I can shoot .22 Short such as the CCI CB Short. These are stated to be 29 gr. @ 710 FPS. The Remington gives me around 675-ish and the Rascal right at the advertised 710. That is roughly 30 FPE give or take. The "Hammer" oh, uh, I mean the 725VTR seems to be in the same ball park for energy and velocity. Pellet weights are close and velocities are close. My darn chrono is broken .

CCI has a segmented bullet they use on several products. I really like it (in the CCI Quiet in particular) because it is devastating and dumps all of the energy on target and no ricochet from pass throughs either. I would wish for a pellet with similar technology?

[jlp920]

I have an old inherited (nice) Remington Target Master and a newer Rascal. The Remington has a long 24 inch barrel and the Rascal is 16.5. I enjoy these because I can shoot .22 Short such as the CCI CB Short. These are stated to be 29 gr. @ 710 FPS. The Remington gives me around 675-ish and the Rascal right at the advertised 710. That is roughly 30 FPE give or take. The "Hammer" oh, uh, I mean the 725VTR seems to be in the same ball park for energy and velocity. Pellet weights are close and velocities are close. My darn chrono is broken .

Mine isn't, and you're right. they are close. Diesel it and you're heading toward CCI quiet LR energies.

What are the turret screws to which you refer?

I believe the dieseling has stopped, and it has settled down to about 650 fps with the Benjies. Thats about 26 fpe.

[3crows]

Your's isn't what? I am not understanding? The CB Short is through my Target Master 29.4 FPE. My non-chrono guess is I have 25.4 gr. Exact at 675 FPS for 26 FPE. I got to get a new chrono -----.

The turret screws I mentioned earlier, one of mine fell out, lol:



I have to let my rifle set for 24 hours to make sure the locking agent is set. Then back to smashing starlings and assorted nefarious vermin.

[jlp920]

I meant my chrony isn't broken 
Yeah, that's what I thought you meant (turret screws). I checked mine and they were OK.
The gun also appears to be quite accurate right out of the box. Shooting decent groups at 25 yards with my first pellets.
Trigger has a looong creep but breaks pretty well with the adjuster screw all the way in.
-JP

[jlp920]

Pivot screw backed out while I was shooting, did the same thing as was posted early in the thread.
Cranked everything down. Groups have yet to be attained. Probably tear it down, clean it, fix the trigger.
I am comfortable calling the trigger bad as it is.  I notice I'm contradicting myself a little from my last post.
As for the picatinny rail...that looks like a weld to me, correct me if I'm wrong. It takes some muscle to cock this thing.

PS James I notice that you gave us heads up on all of this a couple posts back and I could have saved myself some trouble.
The slow student (me) learns his lesson.
-JP

[3crows]

Pivot screw backed out while I was shooting, did the same thing as was posted early in the thread.
Cranked everything down. Groups have yet to be attained. Probably tear it down, clean it, fix the trigger.
I am comfortable calling the trigger bad as it is.  I notice I'm contradicting myself a little from my last post.
As for the picatinny rail...that looks like a weld to me, correct me if I'm wrong. It takes some muscle to cock this thing.

PS James I notice that you gave us heads up on all of this a couple posts back and I could have saved myself some trouble.
The slow student (me) learns his lesson.
-JP

I knew this was a potential problem because the first rifle I brought home it was apparent the rifle had been abused and the pivot screw was fully out and actually the blue was worn from it and a hole worn in the stock from the rotation. Clearly, this rifle was not NIB. It might have been a display but that does not explain how it got full of dirt! So anyways, my new rifle is perfect, super clean and was NIB. And knowing the pivot screw is prone to backing out I just went ahead and hopefully have made it resistant to that now with the 271 on mine. I was reminded again, having known this also long ago, never purchase any rifle without a careful inspection and make sure I am wearing my glasses when I do!

[jlp920]

The pivot screw started backing out and I didn’t notice until it was starting to flex out the stock...it probably damaged some threads since I cocked it a few times without noticing. There was a noticeable hitch as I was torquing it back in. I also notice there is slightly more space between the breech and where it pivots on the lugs on one side versus the other. Maybe a difference of 5-10 thou. I suspect these are all things that allow the gun to cost $160.

3crows, is 271 like red loctite, permanent?  I need to pick up some thread locker for this and other jobs.

[unionrdr]

That's an electron beam weld on the picatinny rails. I used to run an electron beam welder at Ford in Cinci on the ATX reverse gear hubs. And my 725VTR was about 200 bucks when they first came out. I think it was PA? But some masking, camo dip & modding for sling swivels sure looks and feels better. The mat clear over it is quite durable and easy to clean. More like an egg shell gloss. But I was surprised that it needed a new breech seal right away?! I had to put a total of three shims behind the breech seal to get it to seal well. Now that I have a new G2 chrono, I'll have to charge up it & the notebook to see if it all works in here & for how long per charge? Here's a pic of the Remington 725VTR next to the Benjamin NPXL725 it shares a barreled action with. Again, the Remington is the Benji action in a Remington 783 stock. Same scope & both .25M;

[3crows]

The pivot screw started backing out and I didn’t notice until it was starting to flex out the stock...it probably damaged some threads since I cocked it a few times without noticing. There was a noticeable hitch as I was torquing it back in. I also notice there is slightly more space between the breech and where it pivots on the lugs on one side versus the other. Maybe a difference of 5-10 thou. I suspect these are all things that allow the gun to cost $160.

3crows, is 271 like red loctite, permanent?  I need to pick up some thread locker for this and other jobs.

I doubt it damaged anything. Rather than the 271 I used I would first try the blue 242 or Guntite or one of the other similar semi-permanent thread lockers. Yes, 271 is considered permanent. But it can be removed, I have done so many times on aircraft where similar to (271) had been used and heating was forbidden. The pivot screw is supposed to be tightened down until the barrel will just stay put when cocked at any position. I tightened mine to that plus a little. The action still moves smoothly and easily (when cocked). I went a little tighter because the rifle is new and not broken in and I do not want the screw backing out anymore. And to be clear, on this rifle the screw never backed out, I just noted that it was loose in my after first time shooting inspection.

Ideally you should be able to adjust the pivot screw over time to compensate for wear. Thus for most it would probably be best not to use 271 or similar. The 271 begins to break down at around 250 to 300 degrees and is easily removable at 350 degrees.

[3crows]

That's an electron beam weld on the picatinny rails. I used to run an electron beam welder at Ford in Cinci on the ATX reverse gear hubs. And my 725VTR was about 200 bucks when they first came out.

Hey, yes, I see that it is welded now. When I first looked at it I thought the rail was aluminum and that it was bonded. But, yes, under magnification it is easy to see that the rail is indeed welded to the spring tube.

I see two 725VTR at $219 at Cabalas locally. Good thing I went to our local Gander. It was priced $199 and on sale for $153.

I am not sure I want to double my investment with the camo dip. It is beautiful I agree and your rifle is extraordinary. I have Krylon/2K painted several stocks and that runs me about $50 for materials. To tell the truth, I like the VTR better than the Trail. I like thumbhole stocks but not this derivation that Crosman uses. And I like synthetic stocks over wood for field guns. I think the VTR is the better rifle.

I may have to do that sling mount. I consider this rifle a hunter, not a plinker or target shooter. I could do a AR type side sling with twist in locks or a conventional sling just looped on the barrel or do it right like you did with the sling mount on the stud. You do good work!

James

[jlp920]

That really is a very nice job on that camo stock.
And thanks again, guys, for bringing your experience to the table.
I did the jobs I wanted to do, including the trigger mod and addressing the pivot screw.
Used Permatex loctite blue on everything, cleaned and slugged the barrel while I was at it....looks to be .251” or so, a lot better than the Hatsan. At least I can feel a little resistance pushing the pellet down the barrel.
I’ll let everything set before I start running pellets through it again.
-Jesse

[3crows]

As civilization has slowly encroached upon my acres I have become more cautious with the use of my favorite verminator, my Marlin 917VS. So, I have a new tool in my arsenal to keep my place safe for democracy and for song birds of all variety. Vermin, you can run, but you cannot hide, meet "The Hammer" :

[SteveP-52]

I like my synthetic stocks for field/brush guns, just have always disliked the hollow echo in my ear when shooting. Not a clue how much yours might or if it even bothers you, but I use PA pellet foam cut to fit, then coated on all sides with 100% rubberized black silicone. Little messy, but once done and set, it helps deaden that echo.
You can use pretty much anything...old shop rags, old tshirts, seen guys mention ziploc bags filled with rice or plumbers putty, which in hindsight would make it way easier to remove if you wanted to. Not a clue if it's something you're interested in trying but figured I'd toss it out there

[3crows]

I like my synthetic stocks for field/brush guns, just have always disliked the hollow echo in my ear when shooting. Not a clue how much yours might or if it even bothers you, but I use PA pellet foam cut to fit, then coated on all sides with 100% rubberized black silicone. Little messy, but once done and set, it helps deaden that echo.
You can use pretty much anything...old shop rags, old tshirts, seen guys mention ziploc bags filled with rice or plumbers putty, which in hindsight would make it way easier to remove if you wanted to. Not a clue if it's something you're interested in trying but figured I'd toss it out there

I have heard of using rice, just poured in. The rifle is heavy enough so I would not want to add any appreciable weight to it. I have also heard of people using non-expanding type spray foam. Good thoughts though, thanks.

James

[jlp920]

I am still a little gun-shy from my experience with my Hatsan .25, where I had to lube and flare pellets and stay inside of 20 yards to get a group. Indeed, I’m tempted to lube and flare pellets for this gun too. Let’s talk a little about spring-piston internal ballistics. What kinds of diameters do we require for good accuracy in a springer? In a powder burner, one or two thou over groove diameter (for cast bullets) is common knowledge. I understand there’s some flaring involved, obturation, that hooks the rifling up with the pellet–so where does head size come in? The heads on the Benji 27.9s are about .249”, skirt is about .252” at its widest. I’m guessing my Hatsan was a fluke or a result of poor QC–I would like to chill out a bit but it will take some consistency from the new Remington to relax me. Also, the parties on this thread all seem to have some engineering and technical expertise, so it seems a good place to continue the conversation.
-Jesse

[jlp920]

Here’s mine along with another of my babies:

[Ronno6]

Here’s mine along with another of my babies:

Very nice....and nice stool, too !!

[unionrdr]

That's an electron beam weld on the picatinny rails. I used to run an electron beam welder at Ford in Cinci on the ATX reverse gear hubs. And my 725VTR was about 200 bucks when they first came out.

Hey, yes, I see that it is welded now. When I first looked at it I thought the rail was aluminum and that it was bonded. But, yes, under magnification it is easy to see that the rail is indeed welded to the spring tube.

I see two 725VTR at $219 at Cabalas locally. Good thing I went to our local Gander. It was priced $199 and on sale for $153.

I am not sure I want to double my investment with the camo dip. It is beautiful I agree and your rifle is extraordinary. I have Krylon/2K painted several stocks and that runs me about $50 for materials. To tell the truth, I like the VTR better than the Trail. I like thumbhole stocks but not this derivation that Crosman uses. And I like synthetic stocks over wood for field guns. I think the VTR is the better rifle.

I may have to do that sling mount. I consider this rifle a hunter, not a plinker or target shooter. I could do a AR type side sling with twist in locks or a conventional sling just looped on the barrel or do it right like you did with the sling mount on the stud. You do good work!

James

  Thanks! In the videos I did, I notched out the end of the cocking/anti-beartrap lever. Leaving 3mm in the center to allow for the swivel yolk arms from the NPXL725. That way, it bolts right back in place and looks factory.

[3crows]

I am still a little gun-shy from my experience with my Hatsan .25, where I had to lube and flare pellets and stay inside of 20 yards to get a group. Indeed, I’m tempted to lube and flare pellets for this gun too. Let’s talk a little about spring-piston internal ballistics. What kinds of diameters do we require for good accuracy in a springer? In a powder burner, one or two thou over groove diameter (for cast bullets) is common knowledge. I understand there’s some flaring involved, obturation, that hooks the rifling up with the pellet–so where does head size come in? The heads on the Benji 27.9s are about .249”, skirt is about .252” at its widest. I’m guessing my Hatsan was a fluke or a result of poor QC–I would like to chill out a bit but it will take some consistency from the new Remington to relax me. Also, the parties on this thread all seem to have some engineering and technical expertise, so it seems a good place to continue the conversation.
-Jesse

Even in the powder burner world of home re-loading and casting of boolits there is much discussion of this subject of bullet sizing. While there is some common ground around the numbers you cite it is hardly universal. Pellets, little mini badminton birdies, are odd creatures and seem designed as such to self stabilize, perhaps a carry over or universal design from smooth bore days? I have inspected pellets fired into water and find that the rifling mostly engages with the rear skirt. Thus the pellets must surely wobble down the barrel, especially where as with your Hatson there is a tolerance build (or QC issue). But as well, the skirt design is somewhat self sizing as it must expand outward when it first sees the pressurized air forcing the skirt to conform to the barrel. But the head of the pellet does not. Another consideration is friction, the minimal engagement with the barrel seen by the front part of the pellet reduces the pellet to barrel friction for higher velocity than a boolit shaped projectile that would have more surface area in contact with the barrel and rifling.

Does any company have a rifling similar to Marlin Micro-Groove? The rifling in all of these China built rifles looks like it belongs in a 45-70 .

Are there pellet molds that can be purchased for home casting? And in differing sizing?