Looking for a damaged or problem child big bore PCP. Any good PCP builder books?

[mojomoto]

Rusted, broke, bent whatever. A 9mm-357 bore would be perfect.
Also looking for a "The Modern Pneumatic Airgun" book by H.M. Buckley in ANY condition. Ive email him a few times. Not sure if he still sells them. Any help would be appreciated.
Any other books about PCP design out there? Web sites.
Im usually pretty good at finding info but Im not having much luck with this.
I need to learn about the type of metals that would be strong enough, o-rings, valves, springs..... everything.

[Butcher45]

Rusted, broke, bent whatever. A 9mm-357 bore would be perfect.
Also looking for a "The Modern Pneumatic Airgun" book by H.M. Buckley in ANY condition. Ive email him a few times. Not sure if he still sells them. Any help would be appreciated.
Any other books about PCP design out there? Web sites.
Im usually pretty good at finding info but Im not having much luck with this.
I need to learn about the type of metals that would be strong enough, o-rings, valves, springs..... everything.

If you are looking to reverse engineer, I wouldn't go with just any bigbore.  Choose your design wisely.

[jetmangd]

Mojomoto,
              A Marine I know in NC that has a Sam Yang 909S that leaks Air from the Air Fill ( A Foster Conversion ) If you are
              interested I will E-Mail him to see how much he wants for it. I think he said $280 or $300 with shipping. It may
              or may not be worth it ? However the Gun other than the Air Leak is Mint. For $150 Will Piatt @ Saddle Mountain
              Gunsmith will Power Tune a 909S. Or Leroy Roduner @ BGMF Air Guns does Korean Guns also , My 909S is Tuned by
              Leroy.

              http://saddlemountaingunsmith.com/

              http://www.bgmfairguns.com/otherproducts.html

                                                                   
                                                                                                   Jetman
             

[ltpro]

Mojomoto,
              A Marine I know in NC that has a Sam Yang 909S that leaks Air from the Air Fill ( A Foster Conversion ) If you are
              interested I will E-Mail him to see how much he wants for it. I think he said $280 or $300 with shipping. It may
              or may not be worth it ? However the Gun other than the Air Leak is Mint. For $150 Will Piatt @ Saddle Mountain
              Gunsmith will Power Tune a 909S. Or Leroy Roduner @ BGMF Air Guns does Korean Guns also , My 909S is Tuned by
              Leroy.

              http://saddlemountaingunsmith.com/

              http://www.bgmfairguns.com/otherproducts.html

                                                                   
                                                                                                   Jetman
             

I'd like to know as well,I'm in N.C..

[lloyd-ss]

If you are looking to reverse engineer, I wouldn't go with just any bigbore.  Choose your design wisely.

Care to share your favorite(s)?
Thanks,
Lloyd

[lloyd-ss]

.................................
Im usually pretty good at finding info but Im not having much luck with this.
I need to learn about the type of metals that would be strong enough, o-rings, valves, springs..... everything.

Here are some of my favorite commonly available materials:
Aluminum parts : 7075-T6  It machines beautifuly, is almost twice as strong as other aluminums, tapped holes are very strong, chips nicely, not gummy. Mills and turns very nice.  Unfortunately its not available in tube.
Stainless- grade 303 - The only readily availble free machining stainless steel.  Mills very nicely, and turns great too. Good strength. Generally only available in bar stock.
Plain steel - 12L14  - Easy to hold tight tolerances.  A pleasure to work with. Good strength.
Alloy steel - 41L40 - free machining version of the high strength 4140 alloy.
Tank tubing - 4130 or similar steel alloy - very strong.
Delrin - for most plastic parts.  Machines very nicely without springback.  Reasonably strong.
Teflon (PTFE) - only use it when you have to (for slippery parts).  A real pain to work with. Cold flows badly. Soft.

But my all time favorite plastic- for valve heads and sealing rings, and things that really need to take a beating....
     Craftsman screwdriver handles. Seriously!
Just my 2 cents!
Lloyd

[mojomoto]

Rusted, broke, bent whatever. A 9mm-357 bore would be perfect.
Also looking for a "The Modern Pneumatic Airgun" book by H.M. Buckley in ANY condition. Ive email him a few times. Not sure if he still sells them. Any help would be appreciated.
Any other books about PCP design out there? Web sites.
Im usually pretty good at finding info but Im not having much luck with this.
I need to learn about the type of metals that would be strong enough, o-rings, valves, springs..... everything.

If you are looking to reverse engineer, I wouldn't go with just any bigbore.  Choose your design wisely.

Mojomoto,
              A Marine I know in NC that has a Sam Yang 909S that leaks Air from the Air Fill ( A Foster Conversion ) If you are
              interested I will E-Mail him to see how much he wants for it. I think he said $280 or $300 with shipping. It may
              or may not be worth it ? However the Gun other than the Air Leak is Mint. For $150 Will Piatt @ Saddle Mountain
              Gunsmith will Power Tune a 909S. Or Leroy Roduner @ BGMF Air Guns does Korean Guns also , My 909S is Tuned by
              Leroy.

              http://saddlemountaingunsmith.com/

              http://www.bgmfairguns.com/otherproducts.html

                                                                   
                                                                                                   Jetman
             

Would he take a check? Or Paypal?

It is for reverse engineering.

[mojomoto]

.................................
Im usually pretty good at finding info but Im not having much luck with this.
I need to learn about the type of metals that would be strong enough, o-rings, valves, springs..... everything.

Here are some of my favorite commonly available materials:
Aluminum parts : 7075-T6  It machines beautifuly, is almost twice as strong as other aluminums, tapped holes are very strong, chips nicely, not gummy. Mills and turns very nice.  Unfortunately its not available in tube.
Stainless- grade 303 - The only readily availble free machining stainless steel.  Mills very nicely, and turns great too. Good strength. Generally only available in bar stock.
Plain steel - 12L14  - Easy to hold tight tolerances.  A pleasure to work with. Good strength.
Alloy steel - 41L40 - free machining version of the high strength 4140 alloy.
Tank tubing - 4130 or similar steel alloy - very strong.
Delrin - for most plastic parts.  Machines very nicely without springback.  Reasonably strong.
Teflon (PTFE) - only use it when you have to (for slippery parts).  A real pain to work with. Cold flows badly. Soft.

But my all time favorite plastic- for valve heads and sealing rings, and things that really need to take a beating....
     Craftsman screwdriver handles. Seriously!
Just my 2 cents!
Lloyd

Thanks Lloyd for the good info. Seems like you may have built one yourself? Ive got an idea for a different type of pcp. Could i email you a description of the build assembly and get your opinion. If it works i may patent it the one unique feature.

[lloyd-ss]

Thanks Lloyd for the good info. Seems like you may have built one yourself? Ive got an idea for a different type of pcp. Could i email you a description of the build assembly and get your opinion. If it works i may patent it the one unique feature.

I'll send you a PM.
Lloyd

[rsterne]

The steels with "L" in the number refer to "leaded" AFAIK.... free maching because they contain lead but dont ever try and weld them....

Bob

[Butcher45]

If you are looking to reverse engineer, I wouldn't go with just any bigbore.  Choose your design wisely.

Care to share your favorite(s)?
Thanks,
Lloyd

For the purpose of reverse-engineering I would go with a very simple design that has been around long enough so as to have an established common knowledge about the design inside and out, to the point that it's shortcomings that everyone wants improved on have been identified, and are well known.  

It would also be nice to avoid stepping on the toes of any of our domestic custom builders by choosing something different than what they are building to base off of.  

I do not like exposed loading/cocking bolts (when there is nothing between the back of the bolt and your eye) of any sort.  I have heard enough stories about catastrophic failures involving exposed bolts in the past to know that I myself will NEVER own one I do not trust them PERIOD, even when they are on rifles that have a long track record of safety I just don't like the looks of them.  Not having an exposed bolt means one less thing that is in the back of my mind as I pull the trigger.  

So given those criteria I would go with one of two rifles:  either the SamYang 909/909S (originally designed by a westerner from what I understand), or a bigbore version of an AirForce Condor.  The enclosed hammer inside the SamYang is an appealing feature to me.....no exposed bolt to be concerned with.  Actually, there is no "loading bolt" at all, due to the ingenious simplicity of the barrels sleeved loading port design which I find to be a huge plus in itself.  

SamYangs are simple guns that will give someone a good grasp of the basics of airgun function, that you can likely have a good shot at improving upon if you set your mind to it, and have the right support.  The 909 concept could be improved upon with a guide for the hammer/hammerspring set-up, a less obtrusive rear site housing, more robust receiver/valvework for porting/power tuning etc.  Maybe even experiment with a free-floating (possibly shrouded) barrels and

From what I gather (given my limited understanding of valve design), the AirForce Condor design is like a powerhouse top fuel dragster with it's direct inline valve providing a straight blast of air that has no corner to go around.  The Condor needs a more rigid frame for sure.....the tank/buttstock design needs help ergonomically speaking, and the scope height could stand to be a bit closer to the bore.  The old valves weren't to efficient but they came out with a new valve a couple of years ago that is supposed to be better, and even more powerful.  I haven't thought much about those AirForce guns in a good while since I sold my .25 Condor a few years ago, so some other stuff will some back to me right as I click on "post".

[mojomoto]

Thanks Butcher and others for the excellent info and advise
. Keep it coming. MORE info is better.

[lloyd-ss]

Butcher,
Thanks for the thoughts on the 909 and the Condor. I think you are exactly right about working with a gun that is basically very sound, but that has a few fixable flaws. It's ripe for the picking in the aftermarket.
So you like the sleeved loading port?  I have to admit that I have never operated one so I should give it a fair chance and try one out.  It seems like it creates a very long transfer port, but I should see for myself.
Your comments are always appreciated.
Thanks,
Lloyd

[Butcher45]

So you like the sleeved loading port?  I have to admit that I have never operated one so I should give it a fair chance and try one out.  It seems like it creates a very long transfer port, but I should see for myself.
Your comments are always appreciated.
Thanks,
Lloyd

I like how simple it is.....has to go a long way towards cutting down on the weight and size of the receiver, and the number of moving parts (ie reliability) since there is no need for that extra bolt/bolt housing.  

Gary Barnes is a fan of the concept, having created rifles using roughly the same, or a similar idea.  Will Piatt, too, as he made use of the concept when building his (very nice!) bigbore .45 from scratch (except for the barrel stock and airtube) that he used to kill his hog on our bigbore airgun hog hunt in Oklahoma a few years ago.  That rifle handles like a dream, feeling much lighter than it really was.

[lloyd-ss]

.............................
I like how simple it is.....has to go a long way towards cutting down on the weight and size of the receiver, and the number of moving parts (ie reliability) since there is no need for that extra bolt/bolt housing. 
............................

Butcher,
Believe it or not, I like simple too, although it may seem like I am talking out of both sides of my mouth.  In concept, a PCP is so darn simple, but the execution of the design really separates the good from the bad.   Even though the concept is straightforward, there are a million ways to screw it up. How far can you reduce the part count and still have it perform as intended? How many of the weak links can you uncover and fix.  I could be wrong, but to me, it sounds like you would like to take a 909 and fix it to get rid of those few flaws.
That could be a fun project.   
Lloyd

[Butcher45]

I could be wrong, but to me, it sounds like you would like to take a 909 and fix it to get rid of those few flaws.
That could be a fun project.   
Lloyd

Oh not me....someone else, maybe.  Just seem like as good of a starting point as any to me (along with a well built BigBore Airforce rifle).

[lloyd-ss]

John,
I use this supplier:

http://stores.ebay.com/FORTAL-Aluminum

The chemistry and mechanicals are the same or better than 7075 and I've been using it for years.  The guy who handles it, ScottKrez, is great with email and will see that you get what you need. Last time I bought some, I had him make up a "hobby box" for me of the size ranges I use most. 
I got a real demo of how good this stuff is.  I was match drilling thru some of the Fortal into some 6061T6.  When I broke thru the fortal into the 6061, it was like I broke thru into an old  tire carcass.  The 6061 felt like bubble gum compared to the Fortal plate. It holds threads great.  No helicoils are needed.

You can also buy it at www.mcmaster.com  but it is a lot more expensive.

Should work well for you.
Lloyd