350 Mag opened up - horrible piston seal condition

[dtdtdtdt]

Following this thread but not too involved.  Dry firing most likely is the culprit and not necessarily by your friend. 

A few years ago, I was in a gun shop watching a guy look over a pellet gun.  With approval of the sales guy he was repeatedly testing the trigger by dry-firing. 

Needless to say, I didn't look at their air rifles.

[HectorMedina]

@ Fate.- Thanks for your kind words.

I do have to say that I have seen perfectly good advice "fall on deaf ears". So, credit goes to you as well.

It is not uncommon to hear from some persons things like "I've been a mechanic for 30 odd years and I have never had a problem with . . . ."

Thing is that airguns are a special kind of animal, and their quirks and "manners" are somewhat unexpected in most cases.

I have never stopped learning, and I would commend you, and all others that hold an open mind, because as an old instructor said:
"Mind is like your parachute, unless it has opened, it won't do you much good"

So, thanks, not only for your kind words, but also for your open-mindedness.

It's all of us what makes this forum what it is.

Keep well and shoot straight!




HM

[Toxylon]

We all know how customer returns are often put back for sale without any notice to future buyers. I think it's plausible that my 350 Mag has been around more than I know, and some ignoramus has repeatedly dry fired this magnum.

Right now I'm deburring the gun, while waiting for the replacement seal to arrive. Any progress is good progress 

[WHITEFANG]

Personally I still would replace the spring with a JM while you are looking at it. JMO BETTER now than later.
If you do order a JM be sure to have him set the spring. It will go back together easier.

I have a very good spring compressor and have started not having the springs set. IMO this allows the spring to take set to the gun. But if not set you can possibly cause the spring to bend. Always pros and cons. AJMO💀

My spring compressor was one made by an old GTA member years ago that he offered f/s here on the GTA. It's seen many guns and works just as it did when new.

[Toxylon]

It'd be cool to kit out my airguns, but I'm already at the far end of my comfort zone, budget-wise. Buying American stuff in general but now in particular takes a toll (heh). For starters, you have to double the price of most any airgun-related item due to S&H, add some 25 % for an import tax, and the dollar is strong now, as well.

What does a Vortek 3G kit go for in the States? My local (meaning the next country over) Vortek importer charges 141 USD for a Vortek kit for 350 Mag. Add to that maybe 20 bucks for shipping and handling. A Vortek replacement spring for my other German gun, HW95, goes for 40 USD + S & H. They don't carry replacement springs for the Mag at all, and no-one carries Maccari springs.

[Yogi]

Duke,

Sorry the cut and paste makes if difficult to read.  This is from the Vortek web page.  They do not list Finland as a shipping option.  Sweden is on the list however.
HTH,

-Y

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[mpbby]

Two options for OEM parts

https://www.versandhaus-schneider.de/

https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24382/350-Magnum-TO1/

[Toxylon]

Thanks guys! Yeah, I used the Vortek distributor in Sweden as an example, with prices, inventory etc.

That versandhaus-schneider.de was new to me. They have plenty of useful stuff, including original springs and piston seals for the 350 Mag. Too bad the shipping costs exceed item costs by some 50 %, were I to order those two. Still, it may be the best available option when the need arises. They even stock replacement barrels for Weihrauchs and Dianas.

[Yogi]

Unfortunately, https://www.versandhaus-schneider.de/ will not ship to USA.

-Y

[HectorMedina]

While Schneider has a somewhat peculiar view about shipping outside the EU, Gotha does a really good job:

https://www.waffencenter-gotha.de/shop/Ersatzteile/Luftdruckwaffen/HERSTELLER-MODELL/DIANA/DIANA-Luftgewehre/Diana-350-Magnum:::11_12_614_148_265_1465.html

The expensive part is the payment (from the US), bank transfers are not cheap by any means, specially business ones, personal ones, some banks will waive the fee if the ForEx is done through them, but for business there is no rest for the weary, LOL!
Within Europe, I am sure that better and cheaper payment methods are workable.

I have found prices comparable to Schneider, and in some instances (older guns like the Anschütz 380), they have a lot more spare parts, also Haenel.

Now, one of the things that has not popped up but I think it needs to be mentioned to Ilimakko:  Titan XS #14 is the one to use in the 350, AAMoF, it's the same spring as the Kodiak/Patriot. You could get one for under $20 here:
http://www.airgunspares.com/store/product/5088/Titan-XS-Mainspring/

You WILL need a special guide because Titan designs with a philosophy aimed at making the cocking stroke smoother and the life of the spring longer.

HTH






HM

BTW, I assume there aren't many airgunners in Finland, do you, by any chance happen to know Toppi Kuusinen?

[WHITEFANG]

Look at Airseals of Australia on the seal. They have great piston seals. Not tried the Diana seal but I know others that have. I have tried several other on other brand name guns and they were all very good seals.

Not a big fan of the moly seal but there's I have had no issues with. Others are have. Install of a moly seal has the be correct. The sleeve install does work well once you get  to it. Always JMO💀

[mpbby]

I tried the Titan spring #14 and it did not fit in my Diana 350; outer diameter too big, scratching hard inside the tube when cocking.  Just about "50" rounds, about the same FPS as the OEM spring, and I gave up.

They claim it's painted black as a lubricant. The black ink was being removed by the scratches.

[mpbby]

Another eventual option for spare parts, but I have no experience with this one.

https://www.omps2.it/en/firearm-spare-parts/diana-spare-parts/mod-panther-350-magnum-t06.html

[Toxylon]

That Titan #14 replacement spring is a weird one. The manufacturer and the sellers maintain that it fits the 350 Mag, but I haven't heard anyone succesfully using one in a 350 Mag. As mpbby says, the spring is too large in diameter, and scratches against the compression tube walls, shedding coating etc.

The replacement seal I ordered for my Mag is from Custom Airseals Australia. I hope it works well on my Mag. After purchase, I stumbled upon a case (don't know why I'm not allowed to post external links), where a CAS custom seal for a Hatsan 125 proved to be of too small diameter, resulting in loss of compression, so useless.

Others have told the CAS seals are so soft they wear out pretty fast. Of course, one of the main selling points of CAS is that their seals are made from a softer plastic than the "hard Chinese plastic" used by manufacturers. Good to hear from Whitefang that CAS seals do work, at least most of the time.

Hector,

Thousands of airguns are sold annually in Finland, and it's a national tradition that almost every boy has one or more while growing up. Many of us come back to airguns as adults, and most are in awe at the power and precision serious airguns exhibit. We are the most hunter-saturated and one of the most gun-laden country in Europe, and that spills over to airguns, as well. I don't know Topi Kuusinen.

[HectorMedina]

I'm glad that Finland has a lot of airgunners, Topi is a really nice guy. I did know that hunting is as strong in Finalnd as it is in Michigan and Illinois, where even construction sites close down for Season Opening Day,  LOL!

IMHE, the Titan springs are very good, yes they are "fatter", but that is what makes them smoother. The "paint" , at least the ones I have tested/used, is a Teflon based coating, and it does preclude the need for external lubricants, it's real hard to get it to rub off.
OLD 350's used to have a metal piston sleeve (inside sheath), and that had to be removed to use the Titan.
The other aspect is people trying to use Titan fat springs with common guides, the spring buckles and THEN it rubs on the inside of the piston, but a well fitted guide (as it should), avoids this completely.

DIANA pistons are very smooth on the inside, so if anyone says that the spring "rubbed" on the inside and grated the finish, it tells me that the guide was not well fitted, the sleeve was not removed, or some other strange situation.

It's been some years since I used a Titan in a 350, so, I'll have to ask them for some dimensions and perhaps even test one, but with the productions of up until 3 years ago, I cannot see any problem in a well setup tune.

Another important aspect to note is that ALL DIANA pistons' bodies start from the SAME OEM tubing, and that spec has not, and will not, change soon. For a time, the "belling" operation in the pistons destined for sliding chamber guns gave us problems, but that has been corrected, and the new heat treatment is producing an excellent piston body.

In any case, best of lucks!







HM

[Toxylon]

OLD 350's used to have a metal piston sleeve (inside sheath), and that had to be removed to use the Titan.

Thank you for the detailed, experience-based answer, Hector!

My 2015 350 Mag has a metal piston sleeve inside the piston. How do I know? When I took the action off the stock, I decided to "gather data" about spring movement, since I could see it now. Surprisingly, there wasn't any resistance, so I stopped. About an hour later I learned that 350 Mags should never be even attempted to cock when the action is off the stock, since doing so will crimp a metal sleeve inside the piston. Sure enough, I had crimped it enough that the spring barely came out of the piston, corkscrew-style. 

Anyway, I think a tough, thin plastic sleeve might be a better option re: tuning. I'm especially interested in quieting the gun down as much as I can, and metal against metal isn't conducive to that goal.

[mpbby]

I can hear you pretty well..   Just in case, if you want to recover the steel sleeve, you can put an iron/steel pipe inside and work with a hammer. 

For me, it happened in November, 2014.  At the time, Whitefang kindly taught me (by email) about the plastic sleeve.

[Yogi]

I'm glad that Finland has a lot of airgunners, Topi is a really nice guy. I did know that hunting is as strong in Finalnd as it is in Michigan and Illinois, where even construction sites close down for Season Opening Day,  LOL!

IMHE, the Titan springs are very good, yes they are "fatter", but that is what makes them smoother. The "paint" , at least the ones I have tested/used, is a Teflon based coating, and it does preclude the need for external lubricants, it's real hard to get it to rub off.
OLD 350's used to have a metal piston sleeve (inside sheath), and that had to be removed to use the Titan.
The other aspect is people trying to use Titan fat springs with common guides, the spring buckles and THEN it rubs on the inside of the piston, but a well fitted guide (as it should), avoids this completely.

DIANA pistons are very smooth on the inside, so if anyone says that the spring "rubbed" on the inside and grated the finish, it tells me that the guide was not well fitted, the sleeve was not removed, or some other strange situation.

It's been some years since I used a Titan in a 350, so, I'll have to ask them for some dimensions and perhaps even test one, but with the productions of up until 3 years ago, I cannot see any problem in a well setup tune.

Another important aspect to note is that ALL DIANA pistons' bodies start from the SAME OEM tubing, and that spec has not, and will not, change soon. For a time, the "belling" operation in the pistons destined for sliding chamber guns gave us problems, but that has been corrected, and the new heat treatment is producing an excellent piston body.

In any case, best of lucks!
HM

Hector,

Does the covering of the Titan Springs enable you to either cut them shorter or file the ends flat?
TIA,

-Y

[Toxylon]

The other aspect is people trying to use Titan fat springs with common guides, the spring buckles and THEN it rubs on the inside of the piston, but a well fitted guide (as it should), avoids this completely.

The question then becomes: where to get a spring guide that fits both the 350 Mag and the fatter Titan #14 spring? I looked through airgunspares.com, and there are no spring guides for 350 Mag there. The OEM spring guide is hollow for a reason. I can turn solid Delrin guides with my micro lathe, but making a thin-walled, hollow guide out of the stuff with my gear is impossible. People have resorted to using Titan #12 springs in their 350 Mags because it fits the OEM guide.

[mpbby]

If I was you/Finland, I would buy the OEM spring. 

Considering shipping costs to Finland = 18 euros for 0 >> 0.500 Kg and 20 euros for 0.501 >> 1Kg, maybe I would buy 2 or 3 springs.

Finland = Zone 4 (see 'Conditions of use and sale')

Btw, the price (€11.35) is seeming VERY attractive; hope the site is updated (spring "in stock").

(for the OEM piston seal, the price is €7.08 and, with their light weight, could be included in the package for the same shipping costs)

https://www.omps2.it/en/firearm-spare-parts/diana-spare-parts/mod-panther-350-magnum-t06/spring.html

If it's the case of an OEM piston seal, I will insist .. use the cone (Loctite cap), with no needing to boil; much easier than you can imagine.

PS - if you are not already good with a mount/scope for the 350, and want to know about my experience, please send me a PM.